The Old 'Published Photo for Credit' Chestnut

Freester

Freester

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1,602
Name
Mark
Edit My Images
Yes
Ok,

I got an enquiry via my website today asking for some mountain bike photos for an MTB trail guide to be published this spring. I quote:

We are looking for photos to enhance our book and although we have received a great deal of support from several professional MTB photographers, who have given us photos in return for publicity, we still need photos to illustrate riding in Dorset and Wiltshire. I have seen some great photos on your Flickr account.

For each photograph we print we would credit the photo to you, as well as sending you a complimentary copy of the book.
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I replied politely stating all of my images were available for licensed via myself or Getty on Flickr and to contact me for prices. Also stating politely that credits don't pay bills or mortgages. (Admittedly I don't need to sell the photos - I work full time but also believe strongly that work shouldn't be given away as it cheapens the professional market).

I also asked which 'pro' togs have donated their work FOC.

I got this response

Thanks for coming back to me so quickly. I understand your position and appreciate your honesty. I will have a look at the cost involved to licence the photos but am afraid that it will probably be prohibitive.

As I mentioned we have had a great deal of support from the MTB community and I have sourced over 600 photos from MTB clubs, companies and enthusiasts. Professional photographers Fred Smith, Mr Jones, ****, ****, ***** and **** etc etc have all offered photographs. I think that they feel that work from their back catalogue does not have a great deal of intrinsic value otherwise and is probably better used for something than just sitting in a computer file.
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All of a sudden I can feel myself buckling. I find it hard to work that pro's are giving away their work. :shrug: Wouldn't mind an image from me credited beside some of the names above.
 
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Freester said:
All of a sudden I can feel myself buckling. I find it hard to work that pro's are giving away their work. :shrug: Wouldn't mind an image from me credited beside some of the names above.
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Which is exactly the reaction that the email was designed to provoke, specifically this line:

I think that they feel that work from their back catalogue does not have a great deal of intrinsic value otherwise and is probably better used for something than just sitting in a computer file.
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They are attempting belittle you for not acting as the other professionals have done.

At the end of the day, only you an decide what you want to do, but don't let emotional blackmail sway that decision.

FWIW I've had an image published in a book for credit and copy (one to me and one to the Charity that I'm involved with), but then again it was quite a valuable limited edition which sort of made my mind up! :D
 
I'd not bother if thats their attitude. why should they get images for free when they make money from the book. if the book was a free giveaway then fair enough.

Freester said:
Ok,

I got an enquiry via my website today asking for some mountain bike photos for an MTB trail guide to be published this spring. I quote:



I replied politely stating all of my images were available for licensed via myself or Getty on Flickr and to contact me for prices. Also stating politely that credits don't pay bills or mortgages. (Admittedly I don't need to sell the photos - I work full time but also believe strongly that work shouldn't be given away as it cheapens the professional market).

I also asked which 'pro' togs have donated their work FOC.

I got this response



All of a sudden I can feel myself buckling. I find it hard to work that pro's are giving away their work. :shrug: Wouldn't mind an image from me credited beside some of the names above.
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Thank you both. I could feel my resolution swaying. I've 'manned up' now. :)

I may email back as there was some mention of budget. Perhaps some negotiation should take place :)
 
If it's any consolation I turned down a couple of papers this weekend who both had the classic 'no budget for photos' line.

It's annoying, but there you go! :D
 
As I mentioned we have had a great deal of support from the MTB community and I have sourced over 600 photos from MTB clubs, companies and enthusiasts. Professional photographers **names removed** have all offered photographs. I think that they feel that work from their back catalogue does not have a great deal of intrinsic value otherwise and is probably better used for something than just sitting in a computer file.
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Lots of flies eat ****... **** them, my time even in dragging and dropping the files to email them the jpegs at least DOES have some value...

Also, it's a BOOK.

That people will BUY.

For MONEY.

*headdesks* what kind of imbecile 'professionals' would genuinely 'not consider their back catalogue to be of any value'?


idiocy at its finest...
 
itsdavedotnet said:
*headdesks* what kind of imbecile 'professionals' would genuinely 'not consider their back catalogue to be of any value'?
idiocy at its finest...
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Unless the publishers are telling whopping great big porkies of course?
 
Stick to your guns, I know it would be nice to have a photo printed next to all them other names,BUT

ok long shot here, I tust no one till they prove me wrong so my feeling would be this: Have they got the images from those other togs FREE??? or are they just trying to blag you, its not like you are going to call them up and say "hi mr snow but did you get paid for your pic in blah blah book"

Just my 2 untrusting cents

spike
 
Stick it out - if they really want your pictures they will come up with an offer.
 
SpikeK6 said:
Stick to your guns, I know it would be nice to have a photo printed next to all them other names,BUT

ok long shot here, I tust no one till they prove me wrong so my feeling would be this: Have they got the images from those other togs FREE??? or are they just trying to blag you, its not like you are going to call them up and say "hi mr snow but did you get paid for your pic in blah blah book"

Just my 2 untrusting cents

spike
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Oh I don't know. I'd be tempted to Email Mr Snow et al just for the hell of it if I were in Freester's shoes.

After all what has he got to lose from a quick message saying:

'Hi XYZ house have told me that you're providing your images at no cost for their upcoming "How to Ride a bike downhill" publication. Could you confirm if that's the case, as they have asked me to do the same and justified the zero budget option with your name. I understand if you can't comment as this is may be confidential matter, but am a bit bemused that no one is being offered licence payment.

Yours etc'


That might put the cat amongst the pigeons!!
icon_twisted.gif
 
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A; you stick to your guns, they concede and end up paying for your images

B; you play hardball, no payment- no images, they refuse and you get boy scout.

C; you give them the images and get a credit

It's your choice, my tuppence worth is, I don't believe pro's get paid for every image they take so sometimes a credit is better than nowt.
 
but a credit is almost worthless - apart from the ego boost!
 
DemiLion said:
Oh I don't know. I'd be tempted to Email Mr Snow et al just for the hell of it if I were in Freester's shoes.

After all what has he got to lose from a quick message saying:

'Hi XYZ house have told me that you're providing your images at no cost for their upcoming "How to Ride a bike downhill" publication. Could you confirm if that's the case, as they have asked me to do the same and justified the zero budget option with your name. I understand if you can't comment as this is may be confidential matter, but am a bit bemused that no one is being offered licence payment.

Yours etc'


That might put the cat amongst the pigeons!!
icon_twisted.gif
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He He (y) good idea
 
I think that if I was standing a chance to get work from the publication, then I would consider it. If not then I would say no chance, because of they way they have worded their email.
 
Thanks everyone for the replies. You have certainly strengthened my resolve.

Before posting I emailed a couple of the pro names mentioned and asked if they did 'donate' the images free of charge. Let's see if I get a reply...

I've also replied to the request stating if there is a budget we could probably negotiate a fee for licensed use in a book.
 
You could also look at it a different way ... When you took the shots were you doing so for money or pleasure? Would you like to see your shots published with credit and would that make you feel good about your work? Will you be disappointed if they walk away and you receive nothing? .... At least you get a book if they use them.
 
Hi Steve,

I hear what you are saying. I've done enough of the photo for credit thing. Quite happy to donate my images to the local MTB club for the website etc.

Some of the images were for pleasure. Some MTB images I have got up early and worked long and hard for - for little return.

I guess I am of the feeling that this publication is by a business, for profit. I've done a bit more investigation and worked out the the company also sells specialist MTB route maps, so I guess the book is a mechanism for generating more sales of their maps.

I've also investigated some of the mentioned 'pros'. Quite a few are 'part time' / freelance / and event photographers. I guess at least the event photographers feel they can give an image away as they have already made their money from the event.
 
If they need the shots, it is cheaper to pay you than to commision a set.

However, a credit and a copy of the book is nice.

However, your not a charity and neither are they, so there should be some contribution.....how about they pay you on this gig, but your next one is free. That way you do get paid, and they get something for nothing. I prefer this way around than the first being free and the second being paid for, soc the second never arrives.
 
In the words of the Joker "If you're good at something, never do it for free."

The company pays for the phone, electricity and heating, rent, transport etc so there is no reason why they can't or shouldn't pay for your photographs.
 
Just throwing in my pennies worth.:)
Not getting monetary gain is not necessarily the same as working for free. I have done, and still do certain jobs without any money changing hands, but only when I think it will benefit me in the long term. To date, my net gain for freebie jobs is far higher than if I''d been paid cash at the time.
You may not get much work from someone seeing your credit in the book, (unless it particularly stands out from the rest) but to show future prospective clients that you've had work published in X book, might be a very valuable leaver to have.
 
Be fair though Mark - the horse world has a slightly different currency system from the rest of humanity! :D
 
Freester said:
Hi Steve,

I hear what you are saying. I've done enough of the photo for credit thing. Quite happy to donate my images to the local MTB club for the website etc.

Some of the images were for pleasure. Some MTB images I have got up early and worked long and hard for - for little return.

I guess I am of the feeling that this publication is by a business, for profit. I've done a bit more investigation and worked out the the company also sells specialist MTB route maps, so I guess the book is a mechanism for generating more sales of their maps.

I've also investigated some of the mentioned 'pros'. Quite a few are 'part time' / freelance / and event photographers. I guess at least the event photographers feel they can give an image away as they have already made their money from the event.
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Thanks for the reply Mark. I always get an uneasy feeling when I see threads discussing payment or give away for free? It's almost got to the point where any photographer who wants to give away a shot for publication and credit is committing some huge sin and denying pro's a living! ..... My take on this is ... it's the photographers work to do with as they wish and if payment by a nice warm fuzzy feeling is good for them then that's fine and well done to them for getting the recognition. I really believe that in most cases the pro hasn't lost anything as they haven't taken the shot, weren't there or if the publication had to pay for a similar shot? .. just wouldn't bother!

I'm not referring to your work here, just a general statement regarding the issue! ...

If anyone can get paid and published then that's excellent and if someone gets published and feels proud then that's good too. I publish shots on Flickr and they use them, they are a business and make money...... Funny thing is I pay them for the privilege.
 
blighty said:
I think that if I was standing a chance to get work from the publication, then I would consider it. If not then I would say no chance, because of they way they have worded their email.
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Seems unlightly in this case as they are not paying anybody.
 
Freester said:
I've also investigated some of the mentioned 'pros'. Quite a few are 'part time' / freelance / and event photographers. I guess at least the event photographers feel they can give an image away as they have already made their money from the event.
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And would also probably view it as some sort of advertising/marketing.
 
Freester said:
Some MTB images I have got up early and worked long and hard for - for little return..
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Apart from the little part, I hope that your response to the company was along the lines that you have previously been paid for some of the images that they want, and thus it would not be fair to the company that was charged, for you to just give them away for free now.
 
As has been previously said don't do anything for nothing unless it's for a charity that you're involved with. It's very true that people don't appreciate something that costs nothing as I've found to my cost.
Phil.
 
Freester said:
...

I also asked which 'pro' togs have donated their work FOC.

I got this response

Qoute: Thanks for coming back to me so quickly. I understand your position and appreciate your honesty. I will have a look at the cost involved to licence the photos but am afraid that it will probably be prohibitive.

As I mentioned we have had a great deal of support from the MTB community and I have sourced over 600 photos from MTB clubs, companies and enthusiasts. Professional photographers ***** ****, *** ****, ***** ***, ***** *****, ** *** and **** **** have all offered photographs. I think that they feel that work from their back catalogue does not have a great deal of intrinsic value otherwise and is probably better used for something than just sitting in a computer file....
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Freester, whatever you choose to do (or not) with your own images is entirely your own business, but do you think that it's right to expose the details of other people's private business in a public thread like this :|? I don't :thumbsdown:.

Given the strength of feeling that this topic excites among professional and non-professional photographers alike and the fact that giving away images for free is generally considered 'poor form', you are (deliberately, or otherwise) opening up these other photographers to criticism and (potentially) unfair treatment with your post.

IMHO, you should delete their names and just get on with making your own decision, leaving everyone else out of it. If I was one of those photographers mentioned and you had (effectively) publicly slandered me, I'd want an apology :(.

Still, it's none of my business - just saying :shrug:!
 
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If Mr Book person had to pay for all the 600 images at an estimated £50 each, that's £30,000.

Do these guys have that much at their disposal?
 
Naboo32 said:
IMHO, you should delete their names and just get on with making your own decision, leaving everyone else out of it. If I was one of those photographers mentioned and you had (effectively) publicly slandered me, I'd want an apology :(.
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Fair comment. Names deleted to protect the innocent!

[pedant on]I think written is libel not slander :LOL:[pedant off]
 
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Naboo32 - would you mind deleting the remaining name in your quote - as the tog mentioned could be identified by name - it's his website. Thanks.
 
Freester said:
Fair comment. Names deleted to protect the innocent!

[pedant on]I think written is libel not slander :LOL:[pedant off]
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I always get those two mixed up :D.

(P.S. I think you did the right thing there, Mark ;)).

Freester said:
Naboo32 - would you mind deleting the remaining name in your quote - as the tog mentioned could be identified by name - it's his website. Thanks.
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(y) Done!
 
There's a few names left in quotes from other people I've asked the mods nicely to sort.
 
I don't understand the angst about the names. It's not Freester that is at fault, it's the publishing house. If they were bandying my details about like that I'd want to know so that I could rip them a new one. They're the ones that are guilty of shoddy practice, and the veiled threat of libel is quite frankly risible.
 
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DemiLion said:
I don't understand the angst about the names. It's not Freester that is at fault, it's the publishing house. If they were bandying my details about like that I'd want to know so that I could rip them a new one. They're the ones that are guilty of shoddy practice, and the veiled threat of libel is quite frankly risible.
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I agree with you, Mark, about the publishers discussing this with a third party - I think it's pretty unprofessional (without the express permission of those involved) :thumbsdown:.

As for the 'veiled threat of libel' :thinking:, I assume that was in reference to me writing;

"If I was one of those photographers mentioned and you had (effectively) publicly slandered me, I'd want an apology".

Well, apart from the fact that I may not fully have grasped the meaning of the word slander* :D (since, in this case, what was said was true), the key things to bear in mind are my use of the word 'effectively', because I was acknowledging the fact that Freester had done this unintentionally and also the fact that, as I am directly involved, I can't be making 'threats' against anyone :|. In the hypothetical case that I used, all I would have sought for disclosing my private business details in public, would have been (quote) 'an apology'.

* Wikipedia definition of slander: "the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false".

So, I wasn't far off when I implied that this post might make other people look at the named photographers in a negative light :shrug:.

Anyway, maybe I'm over-reacting!? Maybe I spend too much time on American Internet forums, where people are very scared about what they write :(. Either way, I offered an opinion, with which Mark 1 :)D) concurred and we're all friends again (y) (I hope).
 
Naboo32 said:
* Wikipedia definition of slander: "the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false".
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If in doubt, look in a dictionary :)

Oxford English Dictionary said:
Libel
noun
1 Lawa published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation. Compare with slander

Slander
noun
[mass noun] Law
the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation:
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I wouldn't hand over my images for free. At the end of it all, they are a money making organisation who will be selling this book for a profit.
 
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