THE SKY BROTHERS

merv

merv

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I have been reading 'Undersanding Exposure' by Bryan Peterson, in particular the chapter called 'The Sky Brothers'. This deals with sunny days, backlit sunrise and sunset landscapes etc. It suggests taking meter readings on things like the blue sky, to the side of the sun or on the dusky sky at sunset. I have tried these with limited success until I realised that the camera was set on matrix metering which means it is taking exposure readings from the whole frame and not the specific areas suggested by Bryan. Does anyone have any comments on this books recommendations and in general how to meter in these difficult situations. Would centre weighted of spot not be better methods where you can take a reading on very specific areas:bang::bonk:
 
i think, although dont quote me, that you need to use spot metering and then aim carefully on the area of the scene. I too had mixed results after reading this book but need to revisit the methods.

As for other books i cant offer much help but im sure plenty of people on here will be able to help

Andy
 
I bought this book because it gets so many good mentions. I was intrigued how anyone could write a whole book about such a basically simple subject. To be honest, I really don't rate it at all. I think it is confusing and almost deliberately complicates things in order to justify itself. However, I have to concede that a lot of people think it's great so I guess it must be doing something right.

You mention The Sky Brothers from the book. That's Brother Blue Sky, Brother Backlit Sky (aren't all skies backlit?), Brother Dusky Blue Sky and Brother Reflecting Sky. I don't find that helpful. What is he on about? It just sounds like fancy rhetoric.

He doesn't mention spot metering specifically, but then suggests you take a reading "to the side of the sun." From the illustrations, you can't do that without a spot meter so I guess that's your answer for whether you need one or not.


Exposure metering is like this. In every scene there is a wide range of tones from light to dark. In everyday photography, that range is several hundred to one, and in a sunset it can be thousands to one. Your camera sensor can only handle a range of about seven stops, maybe eight, and that is a ratio of 128 to one, or 256 max. That is the dynamic range, and there's the problem. You cannot change this, and you cannot magic up an extended dynamic range with any method of metering.

Fortunately, there is usually a fairly small range of tones within the whole scene that are important to the photograph, so the task is to make sure you get those important tones to fall within the range that the camera can handle. You must decide on what is important (ie what is it that your are trying to capture in the photo) and then adjust the exposure level to slide those particular tones up and down within the total scale so that they sit within the range that the camera can record.

You will almost always lose both some bright tones and extremely dark ones from the top and bottom of the scale, and if this is unacceptable then there are a few tricks you can use, such as a graduated filter, HDR technique, a polarising filter, perhaps flash etc which either reduces the bright tones, or boosts the darker ones, to move them within the camera's dynamic range.

This is what the exposure meter is helping you to do and while it does a pretty good job (matrix/evaluative metering is really smart these days) it is not infallible. With film, this was a real problem, but with digital you have a histogram. The histogram is an incredible invention, and it is far more helpful than ten books about exposure. So when in doubt, take a quick snap and look at the histogram. It will tell you exactly the range of tones you have captured successfully and where they fall within the dynamic range. Also check the LCD image and if you have over exposure alert switched on (blinkies) it will flash at you.

Frankly, with these kinds of aids literally at your finger tips and available in an instant, it is surely not too hard to get optimum exposure under any situation. It might not always be what you would hope for, but at least it will be the best you can get. No amount of tricky metering techniques can make it any better than chimping the histogram and LCD image, and making simple adjustments so that it looks the best way it can.

HTH :)
 
Glad you had the same problems Andy and thanks Hoppy for that very detailed exposee. Spot metering is not a problem with my camera (D300) but I wished the book had made it clear for dummies like me that to meter a very specific spot as he suggests, matrix cannot do the job and it must be 'spot'. How else would you take a reading just to the left or right of the sun. Thanks guys:clap:
 
I think the bother with that book (I bought it too) is that the title leads you to think that it will be similar to a technical manual, but it is more of an inspirational guide.
That's the trouble of buying books without first seeing them.
 
existent said:
that's a great explanation Hoppy!

What you wrote has been the most useful thing I've read about exposure :)
Click to expand...

Thank you bud :)

arclight said:
I think the bother with that book (I bought it too) is that the title leads you to think that it will be similar to a technical manual, but it is more of an inspirational guide.
That's the trouble of buying books without first seeing them.
Click to expand...

Prolly true. I like your sig :LOL:
 
HoppyUK said:
I bought this book because it gets so many good mentions. I was intrigued how anyone could write a whole book about such a basically simple subject. To be honest, I really don't rate it at all. I think it is confusing and almost deliberately complicates things in order to justify itself. However, I have to concede that a lot of people think it's great so I guess it must be doing something right.

You mention The Sky Brothers from the book. That's Brother Blue Sky, Brother Backlit Sky (aren't all skies backlit?), Brother Dusky Blue Sky and Brother Reflecting Sky. I don't find that helpful. What is he on about? It just sounds like fancy rhetoric.

He doesn't mention spot metering specifically, but then suggests you take a reading "to the side of the sun." From the illustrations, you can't do that without a spot meter so I guess that's your answer for whether you need one or not.


Exposure metering is like this. In every scene there is a wide range of tones from light to dark. In everyday photography, that range is several hundred to one, and in a sunset it can be thousands to one. Your camera sensor can only handle a range of about seven stops, maybe eight, and that is a ratio of 128 to one, or 256 max. That is the dynamic range, and there's the problem. You cannot change this, and you cannot magic up an extended dynamic range with any method of metering.

Fortunately, there is usually a fairly small range of tones within the whole scene that are important to the photograph, so the task is to make sure you get those important tones to fall within the range that the camera can handle. You must decide on what is important (ie what is it that your are trying to capture in the photo) and then adjust the exposure level to slide those particular tones up and down within the total scale so that they sit within the range that the camera can record.

You will almost always lose both some bright tones and extremely dark ones from the top and bottom of the scale, and if this is unacceptable then there are a few tricks you can use, such as a graduated filter, HDR technique, a polarising filter, perhaps flash etc which either reduces the bright tones, or boosts the darker ones, to move them within the camera's dynamic range.

This is what the exposure meter is helping you to do and while it does a pretty good job (matrix/evaluative metering is really smart these days) it is not infallible. With film, this was a real problem, but with digital you have a histogram. The histogram is an incredible invention, and it is far more helpful than ten books about exposure. So when in doubt, take a quick snap and look at the histogram. It will tell you exactly the range of tones you have captured successfully and where they fall within the dynamic range. Also check the LCD image and if you have over exposure alert switched on (blinkies) it will flash at you.

Frankly, with these kinds of aids literally at your finger tips and available in an instant, it is surely not too hard to get optimum exposure under any situation. It might not always be what you would hope for, but at least it will be the best you can get. No amount of tricky metering techniques can make it any better than chimping the histogram and LCD image, and making simple adjustments so that it looks the best way it can.

HTH :)
Click to expand...

existent said:
that's a great explanation Hoppy!

What you wrote has been the most useful thing I've read about exposure :)
Click to expand...


I've said it before and I'll say it again ;); You should write a book about photography, HoppyUK :clap:. In fact, you could just assemble most of your posts from the past 9 months, sort them by topic and just publish them :naughty: - everyone seems to agree that you have a knack of explaining things in a way that makes sense.

:)
 
Naboo32 said:
[/B]

I've said it before and I'll say it again ;); You should write a book about photography, HoppyUK :clap:. In fact, you could just assemble most of your posts from the past 9 months, sort them by topic and just publish them :naughty: - everyone seems to agree that you have a knack of explaining things in a way that makes sense.

:)
Click to expand...

Thanks mate. I really appreciate your comments, and that is quite enough to keep me posting stuff on here, if it is helpful :)

The book is, as they say, a work in progress, but I have thought about it and have even suggested as much to a couple of the gaffas on here. And they have been very positive. I have done similar things before.

I can maybe write stuff, but what I really need a lot of help with is illustrations - particularly before and after shots demonstrating effects and techniques. These usually have to be shot to order, and if they are also to be good and inspriational, that will not be easy.

In this respect, illustrations are more important than the text, in that if people are not first inspired and stimulated by great images, then they will never bother to read the text or try the technique.

The plan, such as it is, is to maybe post up a chapter or two, and suggest illustrations to go with it - before and after photos, graphics etc - inviting the good folks on here to have a go.

This would make a great tutorial for TP, all everybody's combined knowledge and best efforts so to speak, and if it really had legs beyond the website then maybe a book publisher might take it on. That way we would all become authors, and maybe even make a few bob. Either way, it would be rather good fun don't you think?
 
HoppyUK said:
Thanks mate. I really appreciate your comments, and that is quite enough to keep me posting stuff on here, if it is helpful :)

The book is, as they say, a work in progress, but I have thought about it and have even suggested as much to a couple of the gaffas on here. And they have been very positive. I have done similar things before.

I can maybe write stuff, but what I really need a lot of help with is illustrations - particularly before and after shots demonstrating effects and techniques. These usually have to be shot to order, and if they are also to be good and inspriational, that will not be easy.

In this respect, illustrations are more important than the text, in that if people are not first inspired and stimulated by great images, then they will never bother to read the text or try the technique.

The plan, such as it is, is to maybe post up a chapter or two, and suggest illustrations to go with it - before and after photos, graphics etc - inviting the good folks on here to have a go.

This would make a great tutorial for TP, all everybody's combined knowledge and best efforts so to speak, and if it really had legs beyond the website then maybe a book publisher might take it on. That way we would all become authors, and maybe even make a few bob. Either way, it would be rather good fun don't you think?
Click to expand...

:clap: Wow, I had no idea that you were actually considering doing this, but I'm absolutely certain that there would be no shortage of people on TP who would be delighted to help out with providing images (even if some of them do expect to get paid for it :D).

If given a thread or a sub-section of it's own on the forum and if properly explained to people, I think that it would be a great way for the amateurs like me to learn as we follow the progress of the book and it would also give the more competent photographers a chance to really show us what they can do, with regard to getting the optimum exposures in different lighting conditions :).

I'm behind you all the way, Hoppy UK (y)!
 
:plus1: Rob

I too have read the book, and now every time I increase ISO settings I listen for the buzz of all those bees with buckets inside the camera!:bonk:
 
I've just reviewed the chapter on light metering and Bryan states in there that he uses center weighted metering for nearly all his work. I agree that he doesn't make it anywhere near clear enough anywhere in the book that his light readings are done with this setting. He does state that he feels students should use evaluative/matrix metering all the time if they can, but as Hoppy says, that doesn't always work with his Sky Brothers theory.
 
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