"They publish your pictures", a prize or a con

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peterforum

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Peter
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My opinion on this will become apparent pretty quick. I sent an angry email to this company (imagine books, www.imaginebooks.com), which I publish below, along with the resulting back and forth between us. Eventually I'll also send them a link to this thread if it gets any replies...

Relates to advertising a 'competition' (on PCN) with publication in the book to be considered the prize.

FROM ME:
Hi,
I’ve just seen your ‘competition’ advertised on PCN. It is no competition. A ‘prize’ of publication in the book?? Or the cover?? This is a cynical attempt to gather images for free which you would otherwise have to pay for. Are you working for a free book, no? for money, yes? Well why the hell don’t you think photographers do so too?
Shame on you.

THEIR REPLY:
Hi Peter,
This is only for amateur photographers that would not normally get an opportunity to be in a photography book. The people that have sent their photos in are very excited about it.
Sorry this was not aimed at professional photograhers and if that was the representation then it has need a mistake.
Regards,

MY RESPONSE:
Hi ,
Thanks for your reply, but you seem to have missed the point.
The book is a professional publication which people will have to buy. The people who publish the book will earn money from it and so should the people who contribute the content, whether they are professional or amateur photographers, or writers, designers, graphic artists etc. You are exploiting the enthusiasm of a few talented amateurs to avoid paying for content – and then you have the nerve to call publication a prize!
I repeat, you should be so ashamed of yourselves, you are cynical and exploitative – it is not sufficient to point out that those you exploit don’t seem to mind, the impact of your actions extends far beyond those few ill-informed individuals.

THEIR FINAL RESPONSE (I didn't answer)
Peter,

The prizes in the competition are:

1st prize – The winning photo on the front cover and a copy of the book
2nd prize – a copy of the book
3rd prize - a copy of the book

I do not believe that it is in any way incorrect to call the above items a prize.

Every other entrant in the competition, whether they get their photo in the book receives a discount voucher to make their own photobook if they want to. Using the voucher is not compulsory.

I do not believe it is in any way incorrect to call the above items a prize.

For others in whose photos are in the book there is an option to purchase the book but certainly no compulsion.

We are going to print 1000 copies of the book and take a risk that nobody will purchase a copy. This is a commercial venture and we are in no way pretending that it is not. Do you seriously believe that we should run this venture as a charitable exercise fully funded out of our own pocket with 100% of the risk taken by us and absolutely no possibility of a return on the investment that we are making?

The conditions of our competition are clear. We are not hiding anything. Other publishing companies run similar competitions where prizes are given to a few people and others have the option to purchase the finished product.

We are in no way ashamed of what we are doing here and it is absolutely not exploitative. On the contrary, we are excited about a new commercial venture which gives amateur photographers a chance to have their photos printed in a mass produced, offset printed publication. If they do not like the conditions of the competition they should not enter. So far I believe that the 3800 people from around the world who have entered the competition are excited by the idea.

While we did not specify that our target audience for this competition is amateur photographers, we assumed that professional photographers would not be interested because of the non-cash nature of the prizes. We will ensure with our next competition to highlight that the competition is open only to amateur photographers.

Regards and many thanks for your opinions,


SO... OPINIONS PLEASE... I'll send them this thread whichever way it goes...:|
 
Not sure how you can call it a "con", obviously those sending in their pics know what they are doing and are under no compulsion to take part. No different really than sending in photos to TV weather or local news etc ... millions of people doing it globally every day.
 
^^WHS^^

I understand the 'bigger picture' that you are trying to point out to them, but im not really sure what you are hoping to achieve by pursuing this.

As has been said already, the people that send them photos know what they are getting into when they send them. They know they wont be paid, but then again, if they were relying on being paid for their photography, this isnt the sort of competition they would enter.

It is unfortunate that there are so many of these type of competitions around at the moment, but if you are silly enough to send a photo, and sign away all your rights, then there is only one person to blame...


IMVHO
 
Not a con just because they do not offer a prize of monetary value, just getting published and recognition is reward enough to some. Getting work published can also give individuals the self esteem required to make the next step.
 
:agree: If it was a cash prize it would probably reduce the chances of the amateur in getting a photo published if all the pro's decided to have a go too. It seems the company concerned has made it clear what will happen to succesful photos.

To me the greed seems to be on your part looking for cash payment or otherwise. Can't you be happy for the amateur who is happy to see their work in print, if you don't agree with it then why get yourself upset by sending off angry emails, most folk would just ignore it and get on with their life. Who knows they could be approached at a later date to do a paid for photo shoot for someone.
 
The competitions clearly not for you. Just don't enter.

They've stated their rules, and if you don't think the prize is worth entering then don't.
 
Why pee on their parade, they laid out the comp rules and prizes(which is seeing your work published and a book),OK the others who took part dont gain apart from a credit maybe, if you dont agree then dont enter simple, so why kick up a fuss, bet they were all peeing themselves laughing waiting for your next KBW rant :LOL:

Look forward to more of your posts :D
 
It seems 3800 people are stupid enough to enter and they are obviously taking advantage of the old "...one born every minute". All I can say is good luck to them.
 
Most competitions don't offer CASH prizes.

The prize for the 3 'winners' does have a monetary value though in the form of a copy of the book which they would otherwise have to pay for if they wanted it.
 
Don't see why anybody is stupid, there doesn't appear to be any attempt to deceive the entrants and what people do with the photographs they take is up to them.
 
I think there have been lots of threads/posts on here about people giving away images for a credit or just to be published, or something to that effect. Many competitions seem to offer a small prize, so someone ends up with a licence to use thousands of pics.

Just read the terms and conditions and if you're not happy then don't apply.

Mind you, if you enter and win and share your win on a photography forum you will get a lot of replies, like...How much did you get paid? What? You did it for that fuzzy warm feeling, The prize was just a book! People like you put Pro's out of work/devalue Photography etc.

You can't be right either way. :puke:
 
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frank said:
:agree: If it was a cash prize it would probably reduce the chances of the amateur in getting a photo published if all the pro's decided to have a go too. It seems the company concerned has made it clear what will happen to succesful photos.

To me the greed seems to be on your part looking for cash payment or otherwise. Can't you be happy for the amateur who is happy to see their work in print, if you don't agree with it then why get yourself upset by sending off angry emails, most folk would just ignore it and get on with their life. Who knows they could be approached at a later date to do a paid for photo shoot for someone.
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+1

Exactly as I feel, to a huge number of people, photography is a hobby, they are taking pictures for pleasure without the need for financial gain. Most would see a book cover of their print as an achievement to be proud of, not sit in the corner spitting their dummy out because someone dared do something photographic without wanting financial compensation....
 
Some people are mugs and will do anything for a stroke of the ego. Some are naive. Whichever way there are people who see a way to make a quick buck off them.

The "winners" will never admit they got ripped off, because in their eyes they didn't

The businessmen will never admit they are ripping people off because that screws their business model.

Those who put value on their work will be criticised for being money hungry. They are amateurs not pros you just moan about stealing your work.

Those who are happy to work for an ego stroke will be upset that everyone is not happy that they had the feeling of being published. Just grumpy pros bemoaning an industry long gone, free market!

No one will win the argument

Someone will be thousands and thousands richer off the free pics.
 
What are you expecting them to do? Stop the competition? Pay hundreds of pounds to the winner?

People doing it for a hobby don't care about copyrights or massive payments for use of their photos. So getting on the front cover of a book would be a great achievement for them.

I don't see the problem myself. If you don't like it don't enter.
 
ding76uk said:
Some people are mugs and will do anything for a stroke of the ego. Some are naive. Whichever way there are people who see a way to make a quick buck off them.

The "winners" will never admit they got ripped off, because in their eyes they didn't

The businessmen will never admit they are ripping people off because that screws their business model.

Those who put value on their work will be criticised for being money hungry. They are amateurs not pros you just moan about stealing your work.

Those who are happy to work for an ego stroke will be upset that everyone is not happy that they had the feeling of being published. Just grumpy pros bemoaning an industry long gone, free market!

No one will win the argument

Someone will be thousands and thousands richer off the free pics.
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A tad judgemental I feel - It's a little harsh to brand people 'mugs' just because they do something purely based on how it makes them feel, and frankly, there's absolutely no guarantee that the publisher will end up quids in on this either.
 
If I read it right those who get included also get a permanent 10% voucher off Imagine Books as well. So that could be worth a bit - My wife does a photobook every year of the kids activities that year and gives copies to grandparents etc. For the amateur this is an ok deal I think (I count myself as one btw) - a published photo and a voucher off.

It is no different to the short story competitions that offer publication as a prize. For many people just seeing a work of theirs in print is a good prize. Why take that away from them?
 
I'll refrain from the 'mugs' or 'con' elements, but Carl described the business here absolutely perfectly.

If we all step back a little, here's a 'publisher' producing a book of photo's for which the market is who? This business model has been about years for writers of poetry and short stories. There is no 'real' market for this book -apart from the contributing photographers -who all get a discount;).

The 'publisher' isn't doing this primarily as a rights grab (although from their website - some nice images would come in handy for them). The purpose of this 'competition' is to gather a number of customers who'll buy a limited edition book. If it makes these people happy to be 'published' then there's no real losers here.

I tried to avoid the:wacky: tag but anyone who sees the 10% off and thinks that it'd be a good deal can give me a ring about buying some magic beans. There will be virtually no buyers of this book who are not getting that discount.
 
... but everyone will be happy :)
 
Having sold this style of thing before (a business book and a short story one) it is a win for everyone and no one is losing out.
 
Hi Peter, I'll keep this short. You've picked the wrong target for your angst. Yes it's sad to see people give their copyright over to business for no cash reward, the BBC would be my target, but as said above it's a free country and if amateurs are happy to give their hard work away for a chance to publish, then who are we to condemn. Not what you wanted to hear I know and in general I'd agree with your stance but I'd let this one drop. :shake:
 
Furtim said:
A tad judgemental I feel - It's a little harsh to brand people 'mugs' just because they do something purely based on how it makes them feel, and frankly, there's absolutely no guarantee that the publisher will end up quids in on this either.
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Not judgemental at all. If the money was not there it would not be done. As Phil said the market is set as soon as the person gets the "congrats you made the book email".

I know many do not see it as such, but it is basically a legal scam.

I am not against comps as some may have read my previous comments, but comps like these and rights grabs make my blood boil.

Anyways enough of this I'm running a comp. the winner gets a place in my portfolio, whilst I can't credit you I will send you a link to the site to show your friends. All you have to do is email full res pics to me and surrender all ownership and copyright. :lol
 
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I'm sorry, but this seems like a blatant attempt to go out of ones way to bait a publisher into an argument just because they don't agree with the competition.

Did you really expect the publisher to change their stance? To say 'sorry, we didn't realise you felt that way so we are changing the prize to a cash prize of £xxx'. I honestly don't see what you expected to gain from sending that initial email.

I don't get this whole idea and fascination of photographers intentionally going out and baiting others into arguments whether it's about a difference of opinions or to highlight a poor sods lack of knowledge, from publishers to security guards to police, even to other photographers at times.

Why? Just why?!

I may not agree with what the publishers are doing, but I don't feel a burning urge to email them expressing my distaste and seeking an argument. I won't enter a competition like that because to me, yes they should be paying for rights and I'll leave it at that, let the others who do want to enter and get ripped off do so, it is entirely up to them, and within their rights to do so if they wish.
 
Phil V said:
I'll refrain from the 'mugs' or 'con' elements, but Carl described the business here absolutely perfectly.

If we all step back a little, here's a 'publisher' producing a book of photo's for which the market is who? This business model has been about years for writers of poetry and short stories. There is no 'real' market for this book -apart from the contributing photographers -who all get a discount;).

The 'publisher' isn't doing this primarily as a rights grab (although from their website - some nice images would come in handy for them). The purpose of this 'competition' is to gather a number of customers who'll buy a limited edition book. If it makes these people happy to be 'published' then there's no real losers here.

I tried to avoid the:wacky: tag but anyone who sees the 10% off and thinks that it'd be a good deal can give me a ring about buying some magic beans. There will be virtually no buyers of this book who are not getting that discount.
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you've got magic beans! no way
 
peterforum said:
Eventually I'll also send them a link to this thread if it gets any replies...
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So I wonder if that happened yet???

OP, I can see where you're coming from but really, you picked the wrong target - there's banks, insurance companies, breweries etc running comps which are far more blatant rights grabs/stock image fee avoidance exercises - and your emails are clearly designed to be inflammatory when a more civilised approach might have led to some dialogue on why (you feel) comps like this are damaging.

The issue of whether these rights grab / stock image fee avoidance comps are actually doing any damage is a prickly one.

Personally, I think the damage was done long ago and went unnoticed at the time and we are beyond the point where a few letters of complaint will change anything.
 
ding76uk said:
I know many do not see it as such, but it is basically a legal scam.
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No scam here fella legal or otherwise. Those who contribute know exactly what their doing and what their getting. No promises that can't be delivered. You might not like the business model but it's totally legit.
 
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ding76uk said:
I know many do not see it as such, but it is basically a legal scam.
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Same scam perpetrated by just about every photography mag in the world? You thought of writing to someone like Amateur Photographer and complaining about why they scam their readers by publishing their photos without payment?
 
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Dave1 said:
Same scam perpetrated by just about every photography mag in the world? You thought of writing to someone like Amateur Photographer and complaining about why they scam their readers by publishing their photos without payment?
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I am not against contests at all. I am against rights grabs and scam contests where there is no prize of merit
 
steve_v said:
No scam here fella legal or otherwise. Those who contribute know exactly what their doing and what their getting. No promises that can't be delivered. You might not like the business model but it's totally legit.
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In the same way companies with these help you claim back bank charges companies are a legal, doesn't make it right.

Whichever way you call it, it doesn't sit right with me. I could not run this type of contest.
 
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ding76uk said:
I am not against contests at all. I am against rights grabs and scam contests where there is no prize of merit
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Most magazines have a readers photos page, I think it's called Spotlight in AP (I haven't bought one for some time, it might have changed), and was normally 3 or 4 pages long and the "prize" is to be published. No financial renumeration, no prize, no competition involved.

Probably where the book company got the idea from.
 
Dave1 said:
Most magazines have a readers photos page, I think it's called Spotlight in AP (I haven't bought one for some time, it might have changed), and was normally 3 or 4 pages long and the "prize" is to be published. No financial renumeration, no prize, no competition involved.

Probably where the book company got the idea from.
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Most photography magazines do this, it helps them with having a large selection of pictures to show.

However, photo magazines are full of content which is interesting and useful to a wide audience.

This book will simply be a showcase of images provided by people, in order that they buy the book.

The average issue of AP contains pictures from Maybe a dozen readers, and a circulation close to 20,000. This book will contain images from maybe 100 readers and have about 100 readers.:naughty:
 
Phil V said:
Most photography magazines do this, it helps them with having a large selection of pictures to show.

However, photo magazines are full of content which is interesting and useful to a wide audience.

This book will simply be a showcase of images provided by people, in order that they buy the book.

The average issue of AP contains pictures from Maybe a dozen readers, and a circulation close to 20,000. This book will contain images from maybe 100 readers and have about 100 readers.:naughty:
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I know, the point I'm making is that numerous publications use the "readers page" or "editors appraisal" page to get free images from photographers. I haven't heard many people scream its a scam for this, with very little difference, this is the same picture grab as the photo magazines.

I would admit, I wouldn't send an image in, but it isn't a scam, and I wouldn't view a photographer (especially an amateur) as a "mug" if he did send one hoping to make the cover.
 
peterforum said:
FROM ME:
Hi,
I’ve just seen your ‘competition’ advertised on PCN. It is no competition. A ‘prize’ of publication in the book?? Or the cover?? This is a cynical attempt to gather images for free which you would otherwise have to pay for. Are you working for a free book, no? for money, yes? Well why the hell don’t you think photographers do so too?
Shame on you.
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I am shocked that they even bothered to respond, and completely amazed it was as polite as it was.

I really don't think you would of liked my response if I was at that company.

People can do whatever they like with their images and as long as they are aware of the rules of any competition you have NO say in what is right or not. Just because it's something that you don't agree with it doesn't mean that it's wrong, vile, selfish, shameful or anything else you might feel.
 
Dave1 said:
I know, the point I'm making is that numerous publications use the "readers page" or "editors appraisal" page to get free images from photographers. I haven't heard many people scream its a scam for this, with very little difference, this is the same picture grab as the photo magazines.

I would admit, I wouldn't send an image in, but it isn't a scam, and I wouldn't view a photographer (especially an amateur) as a "mug" if he did send one hoping to make the cover.
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I'm sorry but you say you understand but you then say the same thing you said before.

The photo magazines are published to entertain thousands of photographers, the book in question is published purely to sell copies to its contributors.

I haven't commented on any rights grab, or whether people should be paid for published work. Because that's insignificant here, the whole business model here is that a publisher creates a limited run book full of photos, and then sells it to the photographers who contributed.:naughty:

if you don't see that as cynical, I can't help you any further.:thinking:
 
Phil V said:
the whole business model here is that a publisher creates a limited run book full of photos, and then sells it to the photographers who contributed
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So the photographers who contributed want a book with their photo in I really can't see how this is any sort of 'scam' :shrug:
The publishers are using the desires of the contributors to see their photos in published form to justify producing the book ... yes without the contributors there would be no book but that doesn't matter to the contributors and that's the point - nobody is being deceived!
 
sorry, cannot really see a problem....

the rules are known... you either accept them or do not enter....
 
gramps said:
So the photographers who contributed want a book with their photo in I really can't see how this is any sort of 'scam' :shrug:
The publishers are using the desires of the contributors to see their photos in published form to justify producing the book ... yes without the contributors there would be no book but that doesn't matter to the contributors and that's the point - nobody is being deceived!
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So where did I say it was a scam?

The publishers are taking advantage of the photographers desire to have their work published. As long as the photographers understand what's happening noones being ripped off. But judging from the mass naivety in much of this thread, the vanity of some photographers will blind them to the real truth here.

My advice to these photographers would be to send pictures to the local BBC weatherman, you get to see it for free, or Amateur Photographer where it'll only cost a couple of quid to see them.

My guess is that the book will be the thick end of £20, which isn't good value just to see their own work, which is free for them to look at any time they like:wacky:
 
Hmm,

OK, that's a surprise but I'll go with it, and I will forward the thread to the company too. (Must admit being disappointed at some of the mildly abusive comments - I put the subject openly for debate.)

I suspect many who replied haven't spent the last 35 years earning a living from this business, and haven't seen it undermined by these 'rights grabbing' companies using whatever legal means available to get photos cheap.

I hadn't realised that - yes (obvious now) - the contributors are expected to be the customers too, ha! Give us your pictures AND pay for the privelige to see them in print - WOW, what a winner!

Doog, I guess you're right, I picked the wrong target. It just came to my inbox on the wrong day. It still represents really crap business - and it does undermine professional and amateur photography (do you think they won't publish if the pics aren't up to scratch?). But I'll leave it here...

except... POAH, 2 crap contributions. If you have nothing intelligent to contribute then why are you here? Oh, 5000 posts, too much time on your hands?
 
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