Time for a new PC

OK, I swear I'm getting close to a decision....

Am I right that these 2 machines are essentially the same but the Scan one is £130 cheaper?

Scan

Overclockers

And are the really going to show me better performance for Photoshop/LR than this?

Hades Canyon

(For a fair comparison I'd need to add a 2TB external drive to that. Let's say £70. So the HC is about 230 cheaper than the Scan.)

Anything obvious I'm missing?
 
JonathanRyan said:
OK, I swear I'm getting close to a decision....

Am I right that these 2 machines are essentially the same but the Scan one is £130 cheaper?

Scan

Overclockers

And are the really going to show me better performance for Photoshop/LR than this?

Hades Canyon

(For a fair comparison I'd need to add a 2TB external drive to that. Let's say £70. So the HC is about 230 cheaper than the Scan.)

Anything obvious I'm missing?
Click to expand...
K

The scan one has a lesser power supply 550 vs 850w . What does this mean? Ability to run quieter at lower loads and also allows greater upgrading later on.

the oc one has faster ram and a better imo case.

The problem with the Hades canyon jobby is it’s basically a laptop so lower clocked cpu chips and very poor (in comparison) cooling. The desktop pc’s should literally make mincemeat of it under prolonged workloads.

the scan model has a professional GPU and the oc model a gaming gpu. I don’t know enough about the professional gpu but the tiny tiny cooler on it would suggest it’s not especially meaty.dont get too excited about the 4.8ghz overclock. All 9700k’s will do that so a builder can purposely pick the weaker cpus knowing they’ll hit 4.8 and sell the better cpus that can hit 5ghz + for a premium.
 
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Also why not get a Ryzen 3700x twice the number of cpu threads and you’ll be able to drop next years model cpu into the motherboard unlike the intel one which is now a dead system.
 
Both are good specs and whilst I am sure a bronze 550W will be fine, I'd rather have the 850W platinum. Another consideration is air vs water for cooling, AIOs are great but there is an additional risk of a leak and more maintenance but this is a minor issue. The below spec is decent for the price point...

https://www.cclonline.com/pc/workstation-pcs/janus/janus-alpha-3700x/

Admittedly the GPU is overkill for the CCL computer and no W10 but this can be bought for a lot less than the quoted prices in the OcUK and Scan configs. I don't know anything about professional cards but the P1000 seems like a small package with a decent enough punch and can easily handle 4 monitors. Depending on your workload I would be leaning towards the CCL and add a mechanical hard drive when needed, plus as Brazo says - you can plonk in a more beefy Ryzen CPU further down the line e.g. a 3900X (12C/24T) or 3950X (16C/32T) if needed.

OcUK - £1,806.98 (9700K 8C/8T CPU, Z370, 32GB RAM 3000MHz, 2 x 500GB nVME + 1 x 2TB mechanical, 6GB 1660, 240mm AIO Liquid CPU Cooler, 850W gold PSU, W10)
Scan - £1,677.62 (9700K 8C/8T CPU, Z390, 32GB RAM 2666MHz, 1 x 512GB nVME + 1 x 2TB mechanical, 4GB QUADRO P1000, air cooler, 550W bronze PSU, W10)
CCL - £1,468.99 (3700X 8C/16T CPU, X570, 32GB RAM 3200MHz, 1 x 512GB nVME + 1 x 1TB nVME, 6GB 2060, air cooler, 650W gold PSU, no W10)

Edit - @twist has hit the sweet spot and is right about a switch from X570 to B450. A more rounded machine (includes a mechanical HD, W10 and a more reasonable but still decent GPU) with a more beefy CPU.
 
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Looking at around £1600 Id much rather buy this... :love:

Id possibly switch out the B450 for an X570 though. But it wouldnt let me configure that.

Capture.PNG
 
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Thanks VERY much - I must admit I've been focussed on processor level and memory quantity and ignored things like mobo and PSU....

After doing a little light reading, it seems I may well be very happy with a Ryzen - I'm just prejudiced from the old days when if it wasn't Intel then there was a chance stuff wouldn't run.... :D (maybe that was never true but Intel got me to believe it).

Some questions if you don't mind:

  1. I've noticed that there are some great systems built with Ryzen chips for modest money - but as soon as I choose a "graphics" workstation either the price jumps dramatically or they swerve towards Intel chips. Is there a reason for this? Is the badge just marketing? For example the Janus machine linked above is a "video editing" machine - if I choose a "Photoshop" machine from the same firm it's Intel all the way.
  2. I've been looking at NVME for apps, NVME for scratch and spinning metal for storage. The Reaper above seems ot have 1 big NVME and a spinning metal drive. Am I right that some mobos only take 1 NVME?
  3. Do more cores require more RAM? If so then does choosing a 12 core Ryzen mean I will need more memory than an 8 core Intel?
 
JonathanRyan said:
Thanks VERY much - I must admit I've been focussed on processor level and memory quantity and ignored things like mobo and PSU....

After doing a little light reading, it seems I may well be very happy with a Ryzen - I'm just prejudiced from the old days when if it wasn't Intel then there was a chance stuff wouldn't run.... :D (maybe that was never true but Intel got me to believe it).

Some questions if you don't mind:

  1. I've noticed that there are some great systems built with Ryzen chips for modest money - but as soon as I choose a "graphics" workstation either the price jumps dramatically or they swerve towards Intel chips. Is there a reason for this? Is the badge just marketing? For example the Janus machine linked above is a "video editing" machine - if I choose a "Photoshop" machine from the same firm it's Intel all the way.
  2. I've been looking at NVME for apps, NVME for scratch and spinning metal for storage. The Reaper above seems ot have 1 big NVME and a spinning metal drive. Am I right that some mobos only take 1 NVME?
  3. Do more cores require more RAM? If so then does choosing a 12 core Ryzen mean I will need more memory than an 8 core Intel?
Click to expand...
Intel have dominated the CPU market for what feels like nearly a decade, but they got complacent, lazy and artificially kept innovation down (drip drip with core count increase). AMD's Zen architecture has disrupted just about every level of the CPU market completely catching Intel off guard. Both companies still make great processors and Intel likely still have the crown for pure gaming CPUs - though it's so close with the newest Zens you're hardly going to notice and this only really applies to 1080p gaming. If you want cores, multithreaded performance and a good price - Ryzen is a no brainer.
  1. I think this is because professional work station GPUs are expensive. I *think* the work you have described should be fine with a normal GPU
  2. You are correct (looking into details now). I think a lot of mainstream mobos come with one m.2 port for an nVME drive, some will come with 2 but the second may be hindered in performance or run through a slower SATA interface. Some higher end mobos must come with 2 full fat m.2 these days though and another option is to buy a PCI-E/m.2 adapter
  3. Not sure about this but you can never have too much RAM these days ;). You're mainly doing photo work with a bit of video, so 32GB is a minimum but will be fine. If you go Ryzen - you ideally want fast RAM and I am not sure of the status of fast 16GB dimms/sticks at the moment

Edit - spotted the more expensive X570 mobos coming with two m.2 (full fat) ports so they do exist.

Edit - still can't find a mobo on the CCL custom computer with 2 full fat m.2. How big did you want your scratch drive to be? Could you partition the 1TB to allow for one? I swear W10 can be had for a lot less than £100 (checking) so done a similar spec to twist - now with 64GB of RAM (you could even make a e.g. 16GB scratch drive from the RAM).



Edit - you can get W10 for as little as £11.50 but you would obviously have to install yourself but it's a walk in the park. You just need to download the install on another computer, use an app called Rufus to install on a spare >8GB memory stick and install.
 
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My latest workstation - a Z840 - doesn't need an embedded m.2 port but allows me to boot to an NVME M.2 on an adaptor card fitted to a PCIe slot.

I must admit to a real love for workstations compared to ordinary consumer PCs because you simply get more bangs for your buck and HPs Z series just look so good as well.
 
xibinim said:
Edit - you can get W10 for as little as £11.50 but you would obviously have to install yourself but it's a walk in the park. You just need to download the install on another computer, use an app called Rufus to install on a spare >8GB memory stick and install.
Click to expand...

I also got WIN 10 Pro for about £13 on Ebay (including activation code) and although I don't really like it it is the OS of necessity for my Z840 and some things simply no longer work under Win 7.
 
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On cclonline if you look at the AMD performance gaming custom PC options you can switch to the Asus Prime X470 Pro board which has 2 x Nvme drives.

Scratch that - I read two drives but I can only see one slot
Update one drive is hidden under a heat sync so it does have two M. 2 sockets but one runs at half the speed of the other
 
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JonathanRyan said:
Thanks VERY much - I must admit I've been focussed on processor level and memory quantity and ignored things like mobo and PSU....

After doing a little light reading, it seems I may well be very happy with a Ryzen - I'm just prejudiced from the old days when if it wasn't Intel then there was a chance stuff wouldn't run.... :D (maybe that was never true but Intel got me to believe it).

Some questions if you don't mind:

  1. I've noticed that there are some great systems built with Ryzen chips for modest money - but as soon as I choose a "graphics" workstation either the price jumps dramatically or they swerve towards Intel chips. Is there a reason for this? Is the badge just marketing? For example the Janus machine linked above is a "video editing" machine - if I choose a "Photoshop" machine from the same firm it's Intel all the way.
  2. I've been looking at NVME for apps, NVME for scratch and spinning metal for storage. The Reaper above seems ot have 1 big NVME and a spinning metal drive. Am I right that some mobos only take 1 NVME?
  3. Do more cores require more RAM? If so then does choosing a 12 core Ryzen mean I will need more memory than an 8 core Intel?
Click to expand...

My current build has a single 1TB NVME and then 2 x 4TB spinning discs. The 1TB NVME is enough to run everything on, and hold my "working files" which then get moved to the spinning discs when I'm finished editing (all from within the LR catalog).

Core i7 9700k, 32GB ram, Gigabyte Auros Z390 motherboard, GTX1660 GPU and it runs everything with no lag whatsoever. Similar in spec to that £1600 machine you linked to, but only a single NVME.

I don't really see the point in dual NVME as most people aren't going to have enough files they're working on at the same time to fill a single 1TB NVME.

No, more cores don't equal more RAM. But, LR doesn't utilise all the cores properly anyway as it's not properly optimised for multithreading.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Thanks VERY much - I must admit I've been focussed on processor level and memory quantity and ignored things like mobo and PSU....

After doing a little light reading, it seems I may well be very happy with a Ryzen - I'm just prejudiced from the old days when if it wasn't Intel then there was a chance stuff wouldn't run.... :D (maybe that was never true but Intel got me to believe it).

Some questions if you don't mind:

  1. I've noticed that there are some great systems built with Ryzen chips for modest money - but as soon as I choose a "graphics" workstation either the price jumps dramatically or they swerve towards Intel chips. Is there a reason for this? Is the badge just marketing? For example the Janus machine linked above is a "video editing" machine - if I choose a "Photoshop" machine from the same firm it's Intel all the way.
  2. I've been looking at NVME for apps, NVME for scratch and spinning metal for storage. The Reaper above seems ot have 1 big NVME and a spinning metal drive. Am I right that some mobos only take 1 NVME?
  3. Do more cores require more RAM? If so then does choosing a 12 core Ryzen mean I will need more memory than an 8 core Intel?
Click to expand...

1. Just marketing.

2. Yes and some like mine take two!

3. No. They need more L2 cache but come with that anyway!
 
KitsuneAndy said:
I don't really see the point in dual NVME as most people aren't going to have enough files they're working on at the same time to fill a single 1TB NVME.
Click to expand...

I think I'm confusing myself with spinning metal. With those you want separate drives to prevent head travel. Presumably with NVME it's almost totally down to how much data you can suck down the bus.

Thanks everybody - you've pulled me back from the brink of ordering an Intel :) Now I need to spec a Ryzen.
 
'k thanks for all the advice. Especially to @Brazo @twist and @xibinim who have continued their good advice in a convo.

Machine is now ordered. It will be here in a week. I'll let you all know if it works :)
 
JonathanRyan said:
'k thanks for all the advice. Especially to @Brazo @twist and @xibinim who have continued their good advice in a convo.

Machine is now ordered. It will be here in a week. I'll let you all know if it works :)
Click to expand...

Hi Jonathan,

Would you be able to share the spec you have gone for please? I am currently looking for a new computer and I am very interested, I have read through he thread, but if you are able to say why you went for your final spec too that would be fantastic.

Many thanks :)
 
antc said:
Hi Jonathan,

Would you be able to share the spec you have gone for please? I am currently looking for a new computer and I am very interested, I have read through he thread, but if you are able to say why you went for your final spec too that would be fantastic.

Many thanks :)
Click to expand...

No problem :)

Here's the spec I ended up with

  • Ryzen 9 3900 12 core, 24 thread - possibly overkill but, well, overkill is still dead, right? Check out the stats earlier in this thread. For LR and PS it should beat any affordable Intel. Also I like to Excel and more threads IMO = better for hard core numbers.
  • ASUS Prime X470-Pro - takes up to 64GB RAM and two NVMEs.
  • 32GB Corsair Vengeanace PLX 3200MHz DDR4 - Ryzens like fast memory. If I outgrow 32GB then the board has space for more and memory prices always fall over time.
  • Radeon RX 590 Fatboy 8GB graphics. PS doesn't need a great graphics card. This has a pleasant amount of bang for a moderate buck. Also, there's a free Tom Clancy game with it.
  • Samsung 970 EVO 1TB M2 - two of these. You can never have enough fast storage. Pros are (a bit) faster) but EVO are (a lot) cheaper. Apps and swap on 1, work files on another I shouldn't need to hit the metal drive all day.
  • Some sort of hard drive. I think I went for a WD 4TB in the end. Anything will be slow compared to the M2s and I'll only use it overnight for sync.
  • Be Quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 CPU Air Tower Cooler - I paid a little more for extra cooling. Cool = quiet, right?
  • Corsair RM750x 750W Modular 80+ Gold PSU - one of the things I learned in this thread is buy a decent power supply and cooling system - you are less likely to change these.
  • be quiet! Silent Wings 3 (120mm) PWM Case Fan - more cooling :)
  • Be Quiet! Silent Base 601 Gaming Case - Orange - I wanted something that will sit on/under a desk and look like an accounting machine. The Be Quiet! should be, well, quiet. Also, I like orange.
Including the extra NVME that's about £1,700 built and delivered. I'll let you know if it's any good :)

Will get OEM license for Win10Pro and self install as this saves c£100.
 
antc said:
Let us know your thoughts when it arrives and you have had a go :)
Click to expand...

Getting mildly vexed. Was supposed to be here on Tuesday. Late on Tuesday they told me that wasn't going to happen (mainly because they hadn't built it....). Explained it needed to be here by Thursday as I have all Friday set aside for install and configure and actual work I need to do on it early next week.

Got a call late last night to say it had failed test because the wifi card they recommended doesn't work with that motherboard. Apparently they had never tried the combination before. They are trying a new one and hoping to get it to me today.

Full marks to the CS chap who is trying to turn this round for me but it seems like they are just too busy to hit the timetable they give ATM :(
 
Seems to be a seasonal problem for computer suppliers - our son ordered a Lenovo a couple of days before black friday, and is still waiting, which is not so good as he leaves for 1 year + in NZ next week. And his item was 'in stock' at the time.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Well, it's here.... :)

I had genuinely forgotten what a horrible experience installing Windows was.....

In other news it took me 20 mins to open the case. Also, a 32 inch monitor is bigger than you think :)
Click to expand...

Awesome.... Snap, I got most my bits, just need some fans.

Philips 4K 32" 8P6VJEB
Ryzen 5 3600X
32GB 3200mhz RAM
B450 Mortar Max MATX
Sabrent Rocket 512GB NVME
Sabrent Rocket 1TB NVME
Integral P Series 960GB SATA III
HGST 4TB 7200
Corsair SF600 Platinum
Geforce GTX 1660

resize.jpg
 
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JonathanRyan said:
I had genuinely forgotten what a horrible experience installing Windows was.....
Click to expand...

Seems pretty must the same as many versions of OSs (and easier than some) to me apart from the annoying bit where they now INSIST you have a M$ account.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Seems pretty must the same as many versions of OSs (and easier than some) to me apart from the annoying bit where they now INSIST you have a M$ account.
Click to expand...

Well it's been 2 hours so far and I'm currently creating my 3rd usb image....
 
JonathanRyan said:
Well it's been 2 hours so far and I'm currently creating my 3rd usb image....
Click to expand...

Curious. Are the images corrupted? Presumably you're creating the image on a Mac?

Just to add, I did the process just a couple of months back, and it was as Twist said.
 
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ancient_mariner said:
Curious. Are the images corrupted? Presumably you're creating the image on a Mac?

Just to add, I did the process just a couple of months back, and it was as Twist said.
Click to expand...
First one just didn't work. Possibly because I tried a thumb drive created with boot camp installer (Mac).

So I booted my wife's pc. That couldn't access the SanDisk drive I saved the iso to do I had to boot the Mac, copy iso to another thumb drive and use Rufus on the pc to create the second installer. That didn't work because, um, something to do with the way Rufus formatted it and legacy support.

Now making a 3rd but it's a slow process (probably because our cheap thumb drive)
 
I bought a cheapish 16GB USB 3 memory stick for it, around a tenner, and it seemed quick & worked first go. Sorry it's being a PITA for you.
 
JonathanRyan said:
First one just didn't work. Possibly because I tried a thumb drive created with boot camp installer (Mac).

So I booted my wife's pc. That couldn't access the SanDisk drive I saved the iso to do I had to boot the Mac, copy iso to another thumb drive and use Rufus on the pc to create the second installer. That didn't work because, um, something to do with the way Rufus formatted it and legacy support.

Now making a 3rd but it's a slow process (probably because our cheap thumb drive)
Click to expand...

@JonathanRyan
Youre using this right? Its all you should need.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/software-download/windows10
 
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As @twist says, that link should be fine. Just download the tool and follow the steps. No third party software needed and it creates the bootable drive for you and you should just be able to plug it in, fire the new machine up and it will go from there. Only thing i would say is if you have any drives that are similar in size then unplug the ones that aren't going to be the system disk just to make it idiot proof that you install to the correct one (it's a more common issue than you would think...)
 
So....I am speaking to you from Edge on Windows 10 :)

It's been a long and reasonably stressful day (amongst the highlights - I can't get my Craft keyboard working on the unifying receiver so in the end I gave in and used Bluetooth - good thing I had another keyboard to set up Bluetooth....)

Disappointingly, CCL @forgot@ to fit the second NVME - though they remembered to charge me for it. So that's arriving "soon" and I'll have to get busy with a screwdriver. Meanwhile I'll have questions about partitioning drives (at first I thought they had also forgotten to fit the 4TB as Windows couldn't find it and neither could I).

Now, how do I find out how fast this is? Oh and is it pretty?pretty computer.jpg
 
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