Tog Harassed By Security Staff....

Keith W

Keith W

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.... At The Center shopping mall Livingston

Was on the way to catch the bus home with my 3 year old daughter when I spotted a tog in conversation with a security guard at my local shopping center.

The security guard was soon joined by another one and they "escorted" the tog out of the shopping centre.

When they were outside the shopping center the security guards seemed to be "guarding" the tog , the tog appeared calm & collected at all times, the reason why became apparent when two policemen turned up, one policeman took the security guards to one side whilst the other talked to the tog.

I don't know what happened next as my bus arrived and I had to get myself and my daughter on it.

I did manage to get a picture, it is not very good though as it was taken with my mobile phone through a dirty bus window.

togharass.jpg
 
So you don't know what it was about, you don't know what happened, nor what the outcome was, yet you decide to title your thread 'Tog harassed by Security Staff'.

Have you ever considered working for one of the red tops? :shrug:
 
Bet you made that woman's day when she saw you taking a picture of her on your mobile :lol:
 
Simmotino said:
So you don't know what it was about, you don't know what happened, nor what the outcome was, yet you decide to title your thread 'Tog harassed by Security Staff'.

Have you ever considered working for one of the red tops? :shrug:
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And you thought you would reply just to have a go?

No, I don't know the specifics but it was obvious to me from what I saw that he was being harassed.

Of course this is just my opinion based on what I saw, but I was there you were not.
 
Not having a go at all, but your thread title intimates the 'tog' was being unfairly treated by the security staff when you don't actually know what he was being retained by them for.

For all you know, he could have just stolen the camera and was trying to do a runner.

Security staff in this country are all too quickly assumed to be guilty even when they are justifiably doing the job they are paid to do and, in my opinion, assumptions like yours don't help the situation.
 
Another waste of security and police time, I wonder how many shoplifters took advantage whilst the guards were occupied.
 
Keith W said:
And you thought you would reply just to have a go?

No, I don't know the specifics but it was obvious to me from what I saw that he was being harassed.

Of course this is just my opinion based on what I saw, but I was there you were not.
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Without knowing what the photographer was doing to merit this attention, you can't really make a statement like the thread title. For all you know he could have been taking pics up women's skirts.....
 
and don't forget if there is a no photography rule they are entitled as agents of the landowner to escort him off the premises since he becomes a trespasser.

It is encumbent upon us to know where it is lawful to conduct our hobby before we complain about where it is not!

Having said that I get fed up of people snapping away in the Trafford Centre on compacts and mobiles, but produce anything larger and you get pounced on by the redcoats. :) Just a little consistency would go a long way :)
 
sbowler579 said:
Another waste of security and police time, I wonder how many shoplifters took advantage whilst the guards were occupied.
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The shoppping centre will be private property and subject to rules which may stipulate no photography without prior permission.

As such security would just be doing their job by removing him if he's in breach of any conditions.
 
I took a picture of two people sat at a table in a social club.. an old women was putting a drink down on the table and they had there backs to her...

I titled the picture "drink snatcher" ...

IYSWIM :)
 
PsiFox said:
As such security would just be doing their job by removing him if he's in breach of any conditions.
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Actually, if the guards did that, they would be committing common assault.

All they can do is ask someone to leave. If the person refuses then he is trespassing and the police can be called to deal with it.

Security guards can only use reasonable force to protect their property or other people present.


Steve.
 
Sorry Steve but that's not correct.

From askthepolice.uk

A simplified definition of the UK Trespass laws.

Trespass to land is a civil wrong and as such the police have no jurisdiction. Under common law, the landowner has a right to re-entry on the land. However, the ejection of the trespasser is fraught with danger for the landowner. Initially, the landowner should ask the occupier to leave the land and if he/she does then all is well. However, the problems start if he/she refuses to leave the land.

The owner of the land could commit several criminal offences if he forcibly removes the trespasser and his/her property from the land. The best and safest course of action is to obtain a court order, which if breached may then turn into a criminal matter.

If the police do attend an incident such as this, they are merely there as observers for any possible criminal offences committed by either party. The police cannot assist in the removal of the trespassers or their property from the land in question. The police do have some powers against larger groups of occupiers if damage has been caused.

Trespass is very complex and guidance should be sought where appropriate.
 
Simmotino said:
So you don't know what it was about, you don't know what happened, nor what the outcome was, yet you decide to title your thread 'Tog harassed by Security Staff'.

Have you ever considered working for one of the red tops? :shrug:
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:plusone:
 
Hacker said:
Ooh, Wagamama. I love that place!

:D
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As it happens, I ate lunch in that very Wagamama's a couple of weeks ago... considering I live 370 miles away it's a reasonable coincidence :lol:

I must add though, that neither that lady or that tog were anywhere to be seen :(
 
AliB said:
Sorry Steve but that's not correct.

From askthepolice.uk

A simplified definition of the UK Trespass laws.

Trespass to land is a civil wrong and as such the police have no jurisdiction. Under common law, the landowner has a right to re-entry on the land. However, the ejection of the trespasser is fraught with danger for the landowner. Initially, the landowner should ask the occupier to leave the land and if he/she does then all is well. However, the problems start if he/she refuses to leave the land.

The owner of the land could commit several criminal offences if he forcibly removes the trespasser and his/her property from the land. The best and safest course of action is to obtain a court order, which if breached may then turn into a criminal matter.

If the police do attend an incident such as this, they are merely there as observers for any possible criminal offences committed by either party. The police cannot assist in the removal of the trespassers or their property from the land in question. The police do have some powers against larger groups of occupiers if damage has been caused.

Trespass is very complex and guidance should be sought where appropriate.
Click to expand...

I'm going to try this out at pub closing time ;)
 
AliB said:
Sorry Steve but that's not correct.

From askthepolice.uk

A simplified definition of the UK Trespass laws.

Trespass to land is a civil wrong and as such the police have no jurisdiction. Under common law, the landowner has a right to re-entry on the land. However, the ejection of the trespasser is fraught with danger for the landowner. Initially, the landowner should ask the occupier to leave the land and if he/she does then all is well. However, the problems start if he/she refuses to leave the land.

The owner of the land could commit several criminal offences if he forcibly removes the trespasser and his/her property from the land. The best and safest course of action is to obtain a court order, which if breached may then turn into a criminal matter.

If the police do attend an incident such as this, they are merely there as observers for any possible criminal offences committed by either party. The police cannot assist in the removal of the trespassers or their property from the land in question. The police do have some powers against larger groups of occupiers if damage has been caused.

Trespass is very complex and guidance should be sought where appropriate.
Click to expand...

Except, there is no such crime under Scots' law as trespass, the quote above applies to England, Wales and Northern Ireland only.....
 
AliB said:
Sorry Steve but that's not correct.
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I think it is.

As I said, the police can be called to deal with it. The most likely option is an arrest for breach of the peace if the person does not voluntarily leave.


Steve.
 
In Scots law, trespass is the passage through another’s land without consent. Trespass may be committed by persons, by animals or (if temporary) by things. As in England, trespass is a civil wrong in Scotland, and can sometimes also constitute a criminal offence. This would be the case, if for example, it breached poaching laws. The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 does not apply in Scotland.

Trespass is generally committed by persons and animals, whereas ‘encroachment’ is committed by things. Trespass is only committed by things if their presence on the land is temporary. Thus, if someone moved a boundary fence in Scotland, the fence would be encroaching (not trespassing) on your land. However, the law is similar in that if you allow this state of affairs to continue unchecked, then you will be deemed to have acquiesced to the encroachment and you will lose your rights to object. You can ask the individual to stop trespassing to warn the trespasser.

The defences to trespass are:


Consent
Judicial Warrant
Emergency
Exercise of a right. For example, this could be a servitude, a public right of way, or an access right under part 1 of the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003. Section 5(1) of this Act specifically provides that the exercise of an access right does not of itself constitute a trespass.

Regarding remedies, interdict is a possible remedy in Scotland as in England & Wales. However, it should be noted that this remedy is discretionary and the person asking for interdict must show the likelihood of future trespass before the court will award interdict. Interdict for straying animals is also not available unless the animal is of a type normally, and easily, confined. In addition, it is possible to exercise self help, but this must not be too vigorous or it may constitute a civil or criminal wrong. Finally, damages can occasionally be obtained but liability is not strict and the normal delictual tests must first be satisfied.
 
All this ....from an assumption ,mmmmm... makes you wonder eh


Oh!! that word "tog" is getting a bit old in my book :gag:
 
Keith W said:
.... At The Center shopping mall Livingston

Was on the way to catch the bus home with my 3 year old daughter when I spotted a tog in conversation with a security guard at my local shopping center.

The security guard was soon joined by another one and they "escorted" the tog out of the shopping centre.

When they were outside the shopping center the security guards seemed to be "guarding" the tog , the tog appeared calm & collected at all times, the reason why became apparent when two policemen turned up, one policeman took the security guards to one side whilst the other talked to the tog.

I don't know what happened next as my bus arrived and I had to get myself and my daughter on it.

I did manage to get a picture, it is not very good though as it was taken with my mobile phone through a dirty bus window.
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Well done Keith for capturing some of the event! .... I hope that if I ever get confronted by security or the police that there will be someone to record the moment ..... :thumbs:
 
You ask someone to leave 3 times then you can use reasonable force to remove that person that is lawful.
 
AliB said:
and don't forget if there is a no photography rule they are entitled as agents of the landowner to escort him off the premises since he becomes a trespasser.

It is encumbent upon us to know where it is lawful to conduct our hobby before we complain about where it is not!
Click to expand...

well said, i attended the open day of a new welsh assembly building with my camera. i made a point of approaching security and asked the question. they stated no photography inside unless by the official tog. fair enough. but they did allow the slr + lenses + flash into the building via the scanner. i wonder what would have happened had i tried to use the kit?
 
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