UK Government theft.

Mr Badger said:
I'm not avoiding anything - Carers, etc. currently get proportional contributions towards their state pension and I believe that should remain the same. Now can you answer my question as to whether or not most students actually pay tax and NIC (pay anything into the pensions system) if they do a part time job?

Professionals such as Doctors usually have a substantial NHS and/or private pension, which they can contribute more towards as a tax free benefit from their significant salary (up to a certain level), so would probably regard a state pension as spending money or a holiday fund, rather than rely upon it pretty much as their only source of income in retirement, as many manual workers who have been on minimum working wage over the last 30 or 40 years will probably have to.

We know Medical Drs are an important profession, but put it this way, I've relied on the services of the local bin men a lot more times than I've been to see my Dr! And I know who, on average, will probably be in better physical condition when they reach 65! Your original question was would I like to see a 72 year old Dr? Well, probably as much as I'd like to see some poor old 70 year-old hobbling down the street pulling two heavy wheelie bins!

Can you imagine what it would be like for business too? You've got to keep your workforce until they're 70. "Nah, sorry mate, you're car's not ready... You see, Bert our gearbox technician put your car on the ramp, removed the gearbox and stripped it down to repair the fault, but that set his lumbago off and he won't be back in to work to finish the job until at least a week on Wednesday". Or, "Yes, your car's ready, but we've had to up our labour rate by a third because we've had to employ an extra mechanic to do the heavy work when it gets too much for our two elderly employees."

Statistically, UK residents may be living longer on average (although in some regions that trend has started to reverse), but are they still able bodied and fit for full time manual work into their late 60s and early 70s? Can you see my point now? Not everyone has worked a 40 hour week in a climate controlled office environment, and only started work in their mid 20s. As we've discussed, many manual workers have been out in all weathers keeping the country running. I believe it is inherently unfair to expect people who have started work at an earlier age and done a hard, physical job all or most of their working life to keep on working until they are 70.

Anyway, you've read my suggestion; so what's yours, Chris; bearing in mind we are talking about the situation now, not with the benefit of 20 or 30 years lead-in time?
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I would like to raise a complaint, at the age of 57 in a couple of months, I am the oldest in my department and I always get the heavy manual lifting jobs or get asked to undo tight stubborn bolts. ;)
Just last week someone reversed the back wheels of the long wheelbase Mercedes Sprinter van over a kerb onto a downward sloping grass embankment and got it stuck. I got the job of pushing and lifting it back over the kerb. ;)
 
Mr Badger said:
Compare that to those not starting work and paying anything into the system (including for their NHS health care from leaving school onwards) until they are in their early to mid 20s and probably starting work £10K to £20K in debt, you can probably see where I'm coming from. I think it's probably time this country had a root and branch review of the way we do things?
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The problem is there are way to many apprenticeships today that make little or no sense. Who in their right mind thought it a good idea to have an apprenticeship to be a receptionist. The same goes for degrees. Too many fabricated courses that result in a pointless degree.
 
nilagin said:
In 40yrs of working in engineering I have yet to meet a single graduate capable of doing a job on day 1 straight out of university unless it is a very junior position. They will always have to shadow someone to learn the job because their degree education doesn't cover the work they will be required to do.
Why would your apprentice need to serve a degree apprenticeship? All he needs to do is just study his Bachelors Degree at college or OU.
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What you say about a time served "learner" vs a graduate reminds me of what was happening in the NHS scientific services (path lab in my case). In the 1970's it was very uncommon to find science graduates employed as pathology laboratory technicians.

However, the Zuckerman 1968 report "The recommendations of the 1968 Zuckerman Report on hospital scientific and technical services......" started a change driving towards ensuring that an initially small number but with the aim that in future would be graduates!

There was significant resentment towards the early intake as grade for grade they were paid more but knew squat!!!! And needed hand holding for many months. About the only person who was happy was the Principal Technician :

A time of upheaval to say the least!
 
Mr Badger said:
Now can you answer my question as to whether or not most students actually pay tax and NIC (pay anything into the pensions system) if they do a part time job?
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Well it obviously depends on who much they earn. But that is not my point, the economy is complex and many things are inter-related. We have seen many times that messing with an individual part of it pretty much always has unintended consequences - for example recent changes to doctors pensions has lead to many refusing to do overtime because the extra money they should have got was more than taken off them in tax because of pension over-payments.

Similarly, however important refuse collectors are, a graduate can empty a bin but a typical refuse collector cannot (without a suitable education) design the control electronics for an MRI scanner. The odds are already being stacked against people studying for a degree with increasing tuition fees and if you pile further penalties on top of that people won't bother and all the high value jobs which drive economic growth. And without a growing economy pensions must go down.

The state scheme is a catch-all and higher earners pay in more but get the same as everyone else. I don't see why someone who has paid in more should get less because they took the time to get an education.
 
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sirch said:
Well it obviously depends on who much they earn. But that is not my point, the economy is complex and many things are inter-related. We have seen many times that messing with an individual part of it pretty much always has unintended consequences - for example recent changes to doctors pensions has lead to many refusing to do overtime because the extra money they should have got was more than taken off them in tax because of pension over-payments.

Similarly, however important refuse collectors are, a graduate can empty a bin but a typical refuse collector cannot (without a suitable education) design the control electronics for an MRI scanner. The odds are already being stacked against people studying for a degree with increasing tuition fees and if you pile further penalties on top of that people won't bother and all the high value jobs which drive economic growth. And without a growing economy pensions must go down.
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I'm not talking about penalties, I'm talking about a fair system, where everyone pays their share and those that aren't as fortunate, well off or academically gifted aren't left to struggle on in a job they can no longer physically do as they've been doing it 9 years longer!

Also, don't forget many graduates don't go on to become high earning-champions of commerce, there's a good number of them working at call centres, lower end sales and working for no more money than many who haven't got a degree. A degree is not a golden ticket, particularly if it's in some subject that doesn't have a high demand. To be honest, there are so many people with degrees nowadays that one could perhaps be forgiven for thinking it's become more like a certificate of attendance than an award of academic merit?

Also, in all honesty, I doubt that the average graduate without the requisite number of hours practical employment-based experience could design a fully functioning control electronics system for an MRI scanner from scratch, don't you (unless that happened to be the main focus of their 3 year academic study)?

nilagin said:
I would like to raise a complaint, at the age of 57 in a couple of months, I am the oldest in my department and I always get the heavy manual lifting jobs or get asked to undo tight stubborn bolts. ;)
Just last week someone reversed the back wheels of the long wheelbase Mercedes Sprinter van over a kerb onto a downward sloping grass embankment and got it stuck. I got the job of pushing and lifting it back over the kerb. ;)
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Do you reckon you'll still be able to do that at 68 or 72? You probably hope so, and I hope that for you too, but the pensions review could make working at that age compulsory! Oh, and if you're not fit enough to do your current job then you'll have to re-train to do another one, regardless of any drop in salary... I can see that coming. Then try finding an employer who wants a 68 year old trainee! I know there will always be the exception to the rule, but it's not the exception we're talking about, it's the majority.
 
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Mr Badger said:
I'm not talking about penalties, I'm talking about a fair system, where everyone pays their share and those that aren't as fortunate, well off or academically gifted aren't left to struggle on in a job they can no longer physically do as they've been doing it 9 years longer!

Also, don't forget many graduates don't go on to become high earning-champions of commerce, there's a good number of them working at call centres, lower end sales and working for no more money than many who haven't got a degree. A degree is not a golden ticket, particularly if it's in some subject that doesn't have a high demand. To be honest, there are so many people with degrees nowadays that one could perhaps be forgiven for thinking it's become more like a certificate of attendance than an award of academic merit?

Also, in all honesty, I doubt that the average graduate without the requisite number of hours practical employment-based experience could design a fully functioning control electronics system for an MRI scanner from scratch, don't you (unless that happened to be the main focus of their 3 year academic study)?


Do you reckon you'll still be able to do that at 68 or 72? You probably hope so, and I hope that for you too, but the pensions review could make working at that age compulsory! Oh, and if you're not fit enough to do your current job then you'll have to re-train to do another one, regardless of any drop in salary... I can see that coming. Then try finding an employer who wants a 68 year old trainee! I know there will always be the exception to the rule, but it's not the exception we're talking about, it's the majority.
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I certainly aim to carry on as I do. I will certainly continue to go to the gym for as long as possible. I fear he may have died a year or so ago but I used to regularly see an old boy in the gym, lifting weigjts, who was in his 80's.
I have even considered, that if I do take early retirement, I could become a personal trainer in a gym. I get asked for advice on lifting weights, quite a lot as it is.
At work, fortunately my employer is very good at finding alternative jobs for people to try to keep them at work and wages are always protected.
 
nilagin said:
In 40yrs of working in engineering I have yet to meet a single graduate capable of doing a job on day 1 straight out of university unless it is a very junior position. They will always have to shadow someone to learn the job because their degree education doesn't cover the work they will be required to do.
Why would your apprentice need to serve a degree apprenticeship? All he needs to do is just study his Bachelors Degree at college or OU.
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I have multiple jobs need doing by someone with no work experience, all I need is someone with basic relatable knowledge. Stuff like proof of concept, technology demo or a small part of big project work. It's called delegation. ;)

Degree often doesn't cover the specific tasks. But a good degree will cover all the knowledge and hands on experience required to get started with basic tasks. Eg. I'd expect any new grad to be proficient with GIT/SVN version management, able to do basic C programming and write a reasonable level of documentation. 2 of 3 I had to teach the apprentice.

My apologies. He said he needed 3-4 more years to get a Bachelor's degree. I linked with degree apprentiship mentioned above, I'm not entirely sure if it's the correct title to be honest. Might be just part time university.

Mr Badger said:
I'm not talking about penalties, I'm talking about a fair system, where everyone pays their share and those that aren't as fortunate, well off or academically gifted aren't left to struggle on in a job they can no longer physically do as they've been doing it 9 years longer!

Also, don't forget many graduates don't go on to become high earning-champions of commerce, there's a good number of them working at call centres, lower end sales and working for no more money than many who haven't got a degree. A degree is not a golden ticket, particularly if it's in some subject that doesn't have a high demand. To be honest, there are so many people with degrees nowadays that one could perhaps be forgiven for thinking it's become more like a certificate of attendance than an award of academic merit?

Also, in all honesty, I doubt that the average graduate without the requisite number of hours practical employment-based experience could design a fully functioning control electronics system for an MRI scanner from scratch, don't you (unless that happened to be the main focus of their 3 year academic study)?
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Is it not more fair to base any pension on amount contributed? Higher earner will contribute more over less years. I know it is completely opposite of what you are saying.

Have you also considered physical labour (as long as done correctly and not repetitive) are actually good for human bodies, compared to those higher paying desk jobs.
The gardener I had employed last month is around 65 yo. He is really strong and in great shape. I did a bit of work alongside him and he can do a LOT more, lift a lot heavier than me.
Whereas my old man had desk job all his life, he has back pains and we changed his car brake pad+disc bank holiday weekend, after that he had to lay down to rest his back.

I totally agree a degree is not golden ticket. Many degree are worthless. But that's not the point. Your system penalises all university go-ers.

A graduate from a good electronics degree can be a valuable resource within a team creating a control electronics system for MRI scanner from scratch. They will know all the basic concept and have some hands on abilities, all they need is a quick crash course on industry specific stuff.
 
wuyanxu said:
Your system penalises all university go-ers.
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I don't think it does. It simply means that we show due respect to all citizens.
 
Mr Badger said:
Also, in all honesty, I doubt that the average graduate without the requisite number of hours practical employment-based experience could design a fully functioning control electronics system for an MRI scanner from scratch, don't you (unless that happened to be the main focus of their 3 year academic study)?
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Assuming for a moment something that complex is designed by one person rather than a team, someone coming from an Electronic Engineering or Computer Systems Engineering (or similar) course would, or at least should, arrive with a lot of the knowledge and skills required. What they wouldn't have is experience of the working environment at their employer, standard company practices and procedures that they would need to learn as they go, the specifications of the systems the control system needed to interface with, and so on. All part things that are potentially part of starting any new job or new project.

When I started my graduate position I had to learn the product I was working on. I arrived ready to code in one of the languages used and with the skills to learn the other (x86 assembler) quickly, as I was already proficient in the assembly languages of other CPUs, and in a few weeks I was contributing meaningfully.
 
wuyanxu said:
No due respect is shown to those who have contributed more into society if it is purely calculated based on number of years.
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It used to be, we had a thing called SERPs or second pension, somehow those contributions seem to have been "forgotten" in the rush to provide the new pension. I expect you are too young to remember :)
 
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wuyanxu said:
No due respect is shown to those who have contributed more into society if it is purely calculated based on number of years.
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If you don’t show respect to everyone equally you cannot expect your society to be fair. I happen to think that the goal of a healthy society is the maximum fairness for the most people.
 
MatBin said:
It used to be, we had a thing called SERPs or second pension, somehow those contributions seem to have been "forgotten" in the rush to provide the new pension. I expect you are too young to remember :)
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To be honest, I'm too young for discussing pension.

I'll just continue pay my private pension and have savings. I can only hope in 30 years time when I'm 60+, there is still a state pension of some sort.

AndrewFlannigan said:
If you don’t show respect to everyone equally you cannot expect your society to be fair. I happen to think that the goal of a healthy society is the maximum fairness for the most people.
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I think our definition of fairness is different........ :)
 
onomatopoeia said:
Assuming for a moment something that complex is designed by one person rather than a team, someone coming from an Electronic Engineering or Computer Systems Engineering (or similar) course would, or at least should, arrive with a lot of the knowledge and skills required. What they wouldn't have is experience of the working environment at their employer, standard company practices and procedures that they would need to learn as they go, the specifications of the systems the control system needed to interface with, and so on. All part things that are potentially part of starting any new job or new project.

When I started my graduate position I had to learn the product I was working on. I arrived ready to code in one of the languages used and with the skills to learn the other (x86 assembler) quickly, as I was already proficient in the assembly languages of other CPUs, and in a few weeks I was contributing meaningfully.
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Alternatively, would someone with similar intelligence and learning ability on a good, degree-based, workplace apprenticeship scheme perhaps be contributing meaningfully to the team within two to three years (and paying tax and NIC on their wages while they did this)? How long were you studying for your degree, and, being totally honest, how long would you say it took you before you were working on a large part of the project without any guidance, supervision or precautionary checking of your work (eg working equally as a fully-fledged member of the team)? Was it around 12 to 18 months?
 
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At least IDS will be ok in his old age now he has found a renewable food source.
Up his hooter, dirty old git
 
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