Unsteady hands - Major problem?

Krydel

Krydel

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Name
Ollie Adams-Liggins
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Was looking at some shots around flickr and some guides around the place and a lot of people seem able to hand-hold 2 second shutter speeds before it starts to blur.

I, however, end up with a blurry mess even at one.

How much does the IS on the 450D kit lens 18-55mm alleviate this problem, and apart from a tripod are there any techniques to stop this happening?

Also, i guess the question is, how often will i actually need to hand hold longish shutter speeds like that?
 
I really doubt that- unless its on a tripod, 2 second exposure will cause blur- got any examples? Could be they are using the flash to freeze the movement.
 
:agree: , i cant see anyone handholding 2 seconds :cuckoo:
 
I don't believe anybody can hand hold a two second shutter speed without a blur or flash as Ali said.
 
I honestly can't find the page where i was reading it, though i do remember it reading "i find i can hold the camera for 2 seconds before any blur comes into frame" or something like that.

It was a pic of water falling a short distance over some rocks.

However, now you have mentioned it, im intruiged. How does a flash "freeze" movement?

EDIT* what is the normal limit for holding a camera without blur (lowest shutter speed generally possible?)
 
Krydel said:
what is the normal limit for holding a camera without blur (lowest shutter speed generally possible?)
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Depends who you talk to, but its generally 1/focal distance. Eg. 50mm lens = 1/50 of a second. You can further decrease that with IS/simular, but its taking a risk. I try not to go slower than 1/60th.
 
as a general rule the minimum shutter speed for hand held should be equivalent to the length of the lens in mm. so a 200mm lens would require 1/200th sec a 50mm lens only 1/50th sec and so on. Some people can do better - and VR can lower these figures too.
 
awp said:
as a general rule the minimum shutter speed for hand held should be equivalent to the length of the lens in mm. so a 200mm lens would require 1/200th sec a 50mm lens only 1/50th sec and so on. Some people can do better - and VR can lower these figures too.
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good point, agreed - and as that general rule for 35mm full frame cameras, if you're using a crop camera; say 1.6x, then multiply the shutter accordingly:

200mm = 1/200 x 1.6 = 1/320

50mm = 1/50 x 1.6 = 1/80

drew
 
You need to practice whatever shutter/lens combo you use. I have shots hand held with a 300mm lens at 1/50th sec that are sharp enough!
 
Thank you for the tips and advice everyone, much appreciated :D

buckas said:
good point, agreed - and as that general rule for 35mm full frame cameras, if you're using a crop camera; say 1.6x, then multiply the shutter accordingly:

200mm = 1/200 x 1.6 = 1/320

50mm = 1/50 x 1.6 = 1/80

drew
Click to expand...

Thanks for the in-depth :D However, again, being a complete newbie to photography (havent even got my 450D and wont do till august, but i play with a non VR D40 occasionally) i don't know how to judge if i am using a crop camera, or what that really means :)
 
If your not sure, its probably a crop camera (though if you told us which you were using we could confirm)
 
No. Not really.

Basically the sensor on a crop camera is smaller than on a full frame camera which is the equivalent of the old 35mm film.

Lenses are round and sensors are rectangular. Therefore the smaller sensor grabs the very central portion of the image as produced by the lens. The camera then does some very tricky things to bring the image back up to "normal" 35mm.

So.............what you get is an image multiplied (blown up) by the crop factor.

This can be an advantage when trying to photograph objects that are a distance off because you get a multiplication going on. So 50mm on a 35mm will equal 75mm on a 1.5x and 80mm on a 1.6x. Hence the crop sensors are very popular with nature and wildlife togs. They can keep more of a distance.

Hope that basic explanation helps. There are diagrams that explain it better if you just search for "crop factor"
 
AliB said:
No. Not really.

Basically the sensor on a crop camera is smaller than on a full frame camera which is the equivalent of the old 35mm film.

Lenses are round and sensors are rectangular. Therefore the smaller sensor grabs the very central portion of the image as produced by the lens. The camera then does some very tricky things to bring the image back up to "normal" 35mm.

So.............what you get is an image multiplied (blown up) by the crop factor.

This can be an advantage when trying to photograph objects that are a distance off because you get a multiplication going on. So 50mm on a 35mm will equal 75mm on a 1.5x and 80mm on a 1.6x. Hence the crop sensors are very popular with nature and wildlife togs. They can keep more of a distance.

Hope that basic explanation helps. There are diagrams that explain it better if you just search for "crop factor"
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Ah, thank you very much. Had me worried for a sec there but nothing to worry about i see.

Greatly appreciated :)
 
The crop sensor thing is misleading. It's got no bearing on the shutter spead you can hold steady. If you put an 50mm lens on crop sensor camera you'll get exactly the same pic as you would on a full frame camera but without the outer edges. It's still a 50mm lens and the sensor is the same distance from the lens. If you could hold it steady at 1/50with a full frame camera you can hold it steady at 1/50 with a crop sensor camera. The middle bit of the full frame image will be identical on the crop sensor camera.
 
I've got myself a D60 and have just fitted a 50mm 1.8 lens and I have to set aperture, shutter speed manually as well as focussing and I am having some real issues with getting nice crisp images. I've got a couple that are great but 90% are out :(

Practice makes perfect ***!

Going to look at making myself one of those string contraptions to see if that help steady me a bit! :D
 
I've managed 2-second exposures, but usually braced against something: camera-bag, or daysack - and still not quite as sharp as with a tripod...
But it's do-able with wider focal lengths...
 
hoohaaa said:
The crop sensor thing is misleading. It's got no bearing on the shutter spead you can hold steady. If you put an 50mm lens on crop sensor camera you'll get exactly the same pic as you would on a full frame camera but without the outer edges. It's still a 50mm lens and the sensor is the same distance from the lens. If you could hold it steady at 1/50with a full frame camera you can hold it steady at 1/50 with a crop sensor camera. The middle bit of the full frame image will be identical on the crop sensor camera.
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Except if you're using a 50mm lens and want the same magnification of the subject on a crop body instead of a full frame body you'd stand further away so the affect of the the shake will be less. This would allow you to use a slower shutter speed.

Yes, you can handhold a lens for 2 seconds. It requires a combination of skill, luck and wide angle lenses. IS/VR helps, I have handheld an 18-200 at 18mm for 2 seconds and produced an image sharp enough for a 7" print.
 
Blapto said:
Except if you're using a 50mm lens and want the same magnification of the subject on a crop body instead of a full frame body you'd stand further away so the affect of the the shake will be less. This would allow you to use a slower shutter speed.
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Go try it. A 50mm lens is always going to behave like a 50mm lens regardless of sensor size. It doesn't suffer less from shake just because you've focused on infinity.
 
kittylitter said:
Does it really work that well?? If it does it might merit me braving the spiders for a rummage in the toolbox!!
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It does for me, you can also trap the string under your knee for low level shots.
Make one, stick it in your bag or pocket, it weighs amost nothing, see if it helps.
 
Suvv said:
It does for me, you can also trap the string under your knee for low level shots.
Make one, stick it in your bag or pocket, it weighs amost nothing, see if it helps.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that :thumbs: Got a couple of weeks off work from Monday and seeing as we'll be trotting all over the place I was dreading carting the tripod everywhere 'just in case' - off to dig the string out :clap:
 
hoohaaa said:
Go try it. A 50mm lens is always going to behave like a 50mm lens regardless of sensor size. It doesn't suffer less from shake just because you've focused on infinity.
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Not true. You must include the crop factor to make that rule of thumb about focal length work. It is about magnification, not focal length. The focal length link with full frame is just a coincidence of numbers.

If what you say is true, and crop factor was not relevant, then every compact camera user would be able to hand hold amazingly long shutter speeds, given that they generally have very short focal length lenses. My Pano FX500 has a 4.5-22mm lens, which is 25-125mm full frame equivalent - roughly a crop factor of 5.5x. It is the latter set of numbers that relate to the 'rule'.
 
HoppyUK said:
Not true. You must include the crop factor to make that rule of thumb about focal length work. It is about magnification, not focal length. The focal length link with full frame is just a coincidence of numbers.
Click to expand...

What do you think happens with a crop sensor camera? It is just that, it has a cropped sensor. The lens works identically. If you put a 50mm lens on a full frame camera and then put the same lens on a crop sensor camera you'll get an identical image but with the outer edges missing. It is still a 50mm lens and it behaves identically. Whether or not the rule of thumb still holds for very short focal lengths is a different question.
 
hoohaaa said:
What do you think happens with a crop sensor camera? It is just that, it has a cropped sensor. The lens works identically. If you put a 50mm lens on a full frame camera and then put the same lens on a crop sensor camera you'll get an identical image but with the outer edges missing. It is still a 50mm lens and it behaves identically. Whether or not the rule of thumb still holds for very short focal lengths is a different question.
Click to expand...

No, it is not a different question; exactly the same principles apply regardless of format. It is about magnification, not focal length, and the size of the sensor is everything. You must include the crop factor if you want to relate it back to focal length.
 
50mm is 50mm on any format, the 1.5 crop is just that a crop.

However you can get away with a lower shutter speed as like hoppy said if you are going to take a picture of an object 20cm wide and want it mostly filling the frame at 50mm with a crop camera you will be enlarging the image off the sensor making motion blur more noticable. On a pixel level they will be identical but on a print at any given output size the magnification of any motion will be different.
 
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