Upgraded camera and lenses - no improvement!??

rbrown74

rbrown74

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Name
Rick
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Yes
I know this thread is 'useless without pics' so I will post some later to better explain my quandary!! :p

I had a 450d with a 24-70 Sigma - not fixed aperature though. I have done a good few portrait sessions with it at around F7 or 8 and got loads of lovely sharp pictures - it really only struggled outside of the studio and low light situations.

So.. I reckoned I'd reached the limits of the camera set-up after using it for about 3 years and treated myself to a 650D. I found the first set I did with it to have a grainy feel along edges that I normally would have found sharp. Is this to do with the increased Megapixels??

Everything looks grainy - and blurry - even under the studio lights it isnt just as sharp as the 450d was!! Even upgraded the lens to a Sigma 24-70 2.8 (second hand) and its no different!! Tried printing a picture and it just looks blurry even thought its printing at about 25% size!! What is going on?!? It seems I've taken a backward step IQ-wise :shrug: is there some strange setting that I'm missing?? :geek:

Maybe should have went for the 5dii afterall!! :bonk:
 
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Sounds like something is wrong but yeas you should have gone for the 5d mk2 with that lens.
 
Very unlikely to be the camera at fault but without pics can't say for sure, so get some up!
 
I think he means it's a zoom, not a prime?

Waste of time and money going for a new camera or lens until technique is ruled out, IMVHO.
 
woof woof said:
I think he means it's a zoom, not a prime?

Waste of time and money going for a new camera or lens until technique is ruled out, IMVHO.
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agreed!

Also increased MP shows flaws in technique and lens imperfections to a higher degree(not saying you have bad technique BTW)
 
The main area that seems to have improved over the last 10 years is high ISO performance. The sensor technology has improved to deal with the demands that higher ISO puts on it and doesn't 'break down' as quickly.

At lower ISO ranges I don't think the improvements are what a lot of people expect to see (don't belive the hype!)
I used a 2004 20D for a while and the IQ at low ISOs was just as good as the 2011 camera I have now. However at higher ISOs is was not as good.
It is only when heavily cropping that I saw any difference at low ISOs and that is to be expected as the amount of pixels in the overall image was lower.
 
gad-westy said:
Do you have any example with exif data?
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I will post pics later today - Going out at dinner time here witha tripod to try and eliminate user error as far as possible. I know my technique might not be perfect but to see no improvement and indeed a degration in quality is very confusing!

badboy1984 said:
The OP said the lens is not fixed focal length, you mean not fixed aperture?
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Yes, my bad - was typing too quick!!:D

Didnt expect so many replies so quickly will get the pics up as soon as I get home - Work Network doesnt allow it!
 
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woof woof said:
Waste of time and money going for a new camera or lens until technique is ruled out, IMVHO.
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TonyNI said:
agreed!

Also increased MP shows flaws in technique and lens imperfections to a higher degree(not saying you have bad technique BTW)
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I'm not sure - but I wouldnt reckon my technique is that great TBH

badboy1984 said:
personally i think 450D to 650D is not really a big upgrade.
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Yep, I agree now - though the low light capabilities are poles apart and thats the main thing I wanted to improve.

ernesto said:
The main area that seems to have improved over the last 10 years is high ISO performance. The sensor technology has improved to deal with the demands that higher ISO puts on it and doesn't 'break down' as quickly.

At lower ISO ranges I don't think the improvements are what a lot of people expect to see (don't belive the hype!)
I used a 2004 20D for a while and the IQ at low ISOs was just as good as the 2011 camera I have now. However at higher ISOs is was not as good.
It is only when heavily cropping that I saw any difference at low ISOs and that is to be expected as the amount of pixels in the overall image was lower.
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I think this sums it up - my expectations are too high for what I have :shake:- just taken some tripod shots outside (mostly I've been indoors so far) and it does seem sharp with the 70-200 lens BUT it seems the 24-70 is a tad softer so that plus a dodgy technique might be what is throwing me.
 
Has the new body and lens been calibrated, sometimes this can be off slightly, might be worth popping them into a canon service centre for cal, but......

The problem with the 650D is that they crammed more MPs into a small sensor, which is renowned for causing more noise in images and probably hence the difference in image quality between your old 450D camera and the new one.

Solution, as the xxxD range aren't renowned for their ISO capabilities, its not a studio camera, more for the general comsumer market. As you suggested at the bottom of your thread, personally I would have looked at the 5D series of camera's as the upgrade option.
 
pete.rush said:
The problem with the 650D is that they crammed more MPs into a small sensor, which is renowned for causing more noise in images and probably hence the difference in image quality between your old 450D camera and the new one.

Solution, as the xxxD range aren't renowned for their ISO capabilities, its not a studio camera, more for the general comsumer market. As you suggested at the bottom of your thread, personally I would have looked at the 5D series of camera's as the upgrade option.
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Sorry, but most of that is nonsense, the 18MP Canon sensor is widely accepted as high quality and is used in a number of bodies. Why would it suddenly be so terrible when it has worked well with excellent reviews in the 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D?

The 18MP sensor is a significant step up from the 12MP sensor in the 450D. It is more likely technique or a user error (like auto ISO and ending up shooting at high ISO).
 
pete.rush said:
Has the new body and lens been calibrated, sometimes this can be off slightly, might be worth popping them into a canon service centre for cal, but......

The problem with the 650D is that they crammed more MPs into a small sensor, which is renowned for causing more noise in images and probably hence the difference in image quality between your old 450D camera and the new one.

Solution, as the xxxD range aren't renowned for their ISO capabilities, its not a studio camera, more for the general comsumer market. As you suggested at the bottom of your thread, personally I would have looked at the 5D series of camera's as the upgrade option.
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Will look about a calibration - just found out that my camera is one of the ones affected by the 'poisonous' rubber so have to return it anyways!! :shake:

4737carlin said:
I think 450D to a 7D might of been a better option, or 5D if affordable
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Dave1 said:
Sorry, but most of that is nonsense, the 18MP Canon sensor is widely accepted as high quality and is used in a number of bodies. Why would it suddenly be so terrible when it has worked well with excellent reviews in the 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D?

The 18MP sensor is a significant step up from the 12MP sensor in the 450D. It is more likely technique or a user error (like auto ISO and ending up shooting at high ISO).
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I agree with Dave that the sensor used in the 650D should be on par with the 7D - it even is rated to the same shutter count lifetime which suggests the internally there isnt much difference with the main components. :rules:

I also agree that my technique may need looking at (not sure how though):thinking: - definitely had the ISO right though on most examples I'd looked at.:naughty:
 
Rick, it could even be as simple as a faulty camera (I meant to say that at the end of my post), ISO was just an example not an accusation ;)
 
Dave1 said:
Sorry, but most of that is nonsense, the 18MP Canon sensor is widely accepted as high quality and is used in a number of bodies. Why would it suddenly be so terrible when it has worked well with excellent reviews in the 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D?

The 18MP sensor is a significant step up from the 12MP sensor in the 450D. It is more likely technique or a user error (like auto ISO and ending up shooting at high ISO).
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NONSENSE...... hmmmmmmmmmmm, cramming more MPs into a small sensor does create problems, its a proven fact.. google it, yes I accept manufactures are continually improving the incamera processes with newer chips, but its a fact although you gain more resolution with more MPs, the tradeoff is noise especially when you start to crop into the image. All the camera's you mentions don't have great reps for ISO performance especially for low light conditions, that why the large sensor camera like the 5D series perform better than the cropped sensor camera.

Another factor with more MPs is that it will find flaws with the lens because of the quality of the optics. You will need better quality optics that can “resolve” the detail of the sensor as you continually increase MPs

So is more MPs good or bad, depends what you want, On one side of the aisle are those that will always recommend higher resolution sensors to pull the most detail and image resolution in their work. On the other those that prioritize ISO performance. Anyone who shoots in low light knows the power that good high ISO performance can bring.

Are we there yet, NO but technology is continually improving. Personally 12-14MPs is more than enough for most general users of a DSLR.....
 
OP:

If you are getting more noise, I would guess the iso is not being set at a constant 100 or 200.

My guess is that it has an 'intelligent' iso that changes and the camera has been fooled into low light setting because it doesn't know about the flashes (assuming in a studio...)

I'd try a few more with the auto settings, then put it to a set 100 or 200 (depending whats your lowest) and see whether that helps?

Hope you sort it, usually they are meant to get sharper!
Worst case scenario would be the camera has a problem. Might be worth taking it back (if possible) to the store and compare against another...?
If its within 28 days I think they'd straight swap it, otherwise, they should at least get it checked/fixed for you.

Good luck
 
pete.rush said:
NONSENSE...... hmmmmmmmmmmm, cramming more MPs into a small sensor does create problems, its a proven fact.. google it, yes I accept manufactures are continually improving the incamera processes with newer chips, but its a fact although you gain more resolution with more MPs, the tradeoff is noise especially when you start to crop into the image. All the camera's you mentions don't have great reps for ISO performance especially for low light conditions, that why the large sensor camera like the 5D series perform better than the cropped sensor camera.

Another factor with more MPs is that it will find flaws with the lens because of the quality of the optics. You will need better quality optics that can “resolve” the detail of the sensor as you continually increase MPs

So is more MPs good or bad, depends what you want, On one side of the aisle are those that will always recommend higher resolution sensors to pull the most detail and image resolution in their work. On the other those that prioritize ISO performance. Anyone who shoots in low light knows the power that good high ISO performance can bring.

Are we there yet, NO but technology is continually improving. Personally 12-14MPs is more than enough for most general users of a DSLR.....
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I think given my experiences so far I'd agree with this - compact cameras are suffering from the same sort of noise I've seen on the 650D and yet I remember getting lovely clear shots on far lesser cameras which just had 6MP sensnors compared to some compacts with 14MP.

ecniv said:
OP:

If you are getting more noise, I would guess the iso is not being set at a constant 100 or 200.

My guess is that it has an 'intelligent' iso that changes and the camera has been fooled into low light setting because it doesn't know about the flashes (assuming in a studio...)

I'd try a few more with the auto settings, then put it to a set 100 or 200 (depending whats your lowest) and see whether that helps?

Hope you sort it, usually they are meant to get sharper!
Worst case scenario would be the camera has a problem. Might be worth taking it back (if possible) to the store and compare against another...?
If its within 28 days I think they'd straight swap it, otherwise, they should at least get it checked/fixed for you.

Good luck
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I've been manually setting the ISO and keeping close tabs on it when I have left it in auto so its not going to extreme settings without me knowing about it. I honestly dont think its faulty - just back from shooting in a gym hall and same story again - grainy blurry images even at 800 ISO. (using 1/125 and F2.8 on a nifty fifty)

rjbell said:
Not if his main objective for the upgrade was iso performance which he said it was.
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It is improves for sure so in a way I did achieve what I aimed but at the expense of clarity it would appear. :shrug: Fed up with it to be honest! :thumbsdown:
 
Felt bad not getting any pics up so heres a sample from my office today!!

Here's the overall pic taken at ISO 400 and used onboard flash.
7798493854_4cbf41c23e_c.jpg


and here's a crop at actual pixel level. 400 ISO and 1/125, f3.2. Focused on box while the camera was sitting on my desk and then fired without a fraction of movement. Focus was on the second 'O' in colotech.
7798499066_6613b35a9f_b.jpg


Dont know if this helps much as I've since discovered that the 24-70 isnt very good compared to my old lens!
 
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Try a different lens in exactly the same conditions at the same settings and see if that turns out clearer. It looks like the lens isn't focusing on the proper area, which might mean it needs adjusting to work with the body better (if the body doesn't have microadjust built in)
 
put something with detail at a 45deg angle to your plane of focus (I would try a ruler stood one its edge help up with blutac). Take a pic focussed on the midpoint and then look and see if the far end (further away from your focal point) is better focussed than the middle and vice-versa with the end nearest to you. This will let you know if the lens is focussing infront or behind the intended focal point.
 
sigma lenses are renowned for needing calibration with canon bodies, I think that's you issue, so a quick calibration at a canon service centre is require.

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puggie said:
put something with detail at a 45deg angle to your plane of focus (I would try a ruler stood one its edge help up with blutac). Take a pic focussed on the midpoint and then look and see if the far end (further away from your focal point) is better focussed than the middle and vice-versa with the end nearest to you. This will let you know if the lens is focussing infront or behind the intended focal point.
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Already tried similar to this - there seems to a be a sharper point waayyy in front of where I was focusing but still not as sharp as I'd like!:thinking: Edited to add: Reviewed another pic which I'd taken and nope - there is no actual sharp point - there's like a haze over every part -

pete.rush said:
sigma lenses are renowned for needing calibration with canon bodies, I think that's you issue, so a quick calibration at a canon service centre is require.
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Canon will do it for 80 quid I think it was :help:- Sigma will do it for £37.
 
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