US Soldier Charged with Leaking Video of Reuters' Photographer Being Killed

spiritsfree said:
It is totally sick !!...and no wonder the American`s are disliked.
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So because of the act of a few people you judge an entire nation of people.

So since I'm an American I must be a gun toting redneck prick as well to quote a previous poster......

Now what they did is wrong, and they will subsequently be judged because of it, but let's not jump to the conclusion that all Americans are like this.......
common sense comes to mind.

It seems to me that a lot of people like to regurgitate media rhetoric that will justify there own prejudice rather than having an actual opinion of there own!
 
ironicall said:
So because of the act of a few people you judge an entire nation of people.

So since I'm an American I must be a gun toting redneck prick as well to quote a previous poster......

Now what they did is wrong, and they will subsequently be judged because of it, but let's not jump to the conclusion that all Americans are like this.......
common sense comes to mind.

It seems to me that a lot of people like to regurgitate media rhetoric that will justify there own prejudice rather than having an actual opinion of there own!
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I still don't think they did 'wrong' with regard to the initial shoot.
I doubt very much if they'll be held to account in any meaningful sense.

Distasteful certainly, but then what do you expect when watching unedited gun-camera footage? :wacky:
 
ironicall said:
So because of the act of a few people you judge an entire nation of people.

So since I'm an American I must be a gun toting redneck prick as well to quote a previous poster......

Now what they did is wrong, and they will subsequently be judged because of it, but let's not jump to the conclusion that all Americans are like this.......
common sense comes to mind.

It seems to me that a lot of people like to regurgitate media rhetoric that will justify there own prejudice rather than having an actual opinion of there own!
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I count myself lucky that I've been fortunate to have visited the USA on many occasions - each time a super trip. Your country is full of smashing scenery and locations, and the people I have met are always top notch smashing folk. I always enjoy visiting the USA.

However, the perception of the country your government and your media create just doesn't match my experience. It's a shame.
 
Arkady said:
I still don't think they did 'wrong' with regard to the initial shoot.
I doubt very much if they'll be held to account in any meaningful
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I think unfortunately that due to the media even if they are not held to some kind of accountability this will continue to follow them one way or another.



theMusicMan said:
I count myself lucky that I've been fortunate to have visited the USA on many occasions - each time a super trip. Your country is full of smashing scenery and locations, and the people I have met are always top notch smashing folk. I always enjoy visiting the USA.

However, the perception of the country your government and your media create just doesn't match my experience. It's a shame.
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I totally agree, the American government has a lot to answer for unfortunaltey not all people will distinguish between a governments country ands it's people.
 
Wow, three pages and not a single word about the photographers who were killed :shrug: (and on a photography forum, too).

Whatever else this incident shows us, there's no getting away from the fact the people who are out there trying to show the world what is really going on in these conflicts really do put themselves at great personal risk to do so :(.

It would seem that 'modern warfare' (with helicopter gunships, drone missiles etc.) makes things even more dangerous for photographers than in the days when they would have been hiding in trenches and dodging bullets along with the infantry/artillery :shake:.

It's a hell of a way to make a living! Hats off to those brave enough to do it though :clap:.
 
I was totally and utterly appalled when I watched that video last week.

However, I must say it's very interesting to read Rob's comments as someone who's been there and done it and know's how everything works.

Thanks for commenting Rob, interesting insight to the situation which makes me feel a bit differently about the video :)
 
Arkady said:
And what's that supposed to mean?
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Well, I have to agree with the gentleman.

Originally in this thread you showed an almost polar opposite opinion to the thread months ago with the exact same video. You showed compassion, compared with the complete and total lack of it in the other thread. You were called out on it by several people who noticed, and almost in a snap you changed your tune.

Whether or not you intended it, your recent comments come across as an "oshi--, I got caught out lol, time to backtrack".

You'll probably hate me for it but I'm not the only one who noticed, scratched their head and thought 'WTF?'
 
Wow, did you completely gloss over the bit where Rob said he hadn't watched the video in the last thread as the link didn't work for him and only saw the stills? That wouldn't help you with your little rants now would it.

And even if Rob has changed his mind about the situation isn't that his entitlement? Must be nice for all you ivory tower dwelling champions of the human race to get everything right first time and know everything.
 
I admit it's sad - but as I pointed out, I'd only seen the stills in the previous link and read the accompanying news article...
I also think maybe people are reading too much into my first post in this thread.

My stance on the legality of the shoot has never wavered.
1st shoot - OK;
2nd shoot - a bit dodgy but understandable in the context of the first shoot.

Quite how it makes me feel while watching a fellow Phot getting shot to bits after first being injured (in a justified but still possibly ambiguous shoot) and then collected by a civilian ambulance is another matter entirely...

If you take them as seperate incidents then the second shoot is on very shaky ground, legally and morally.
The first shoot I have no problem with: as I say I can see that there is someone who looks to be carrying an RPG launcher...and that's close enough considering where and when this occurred.
 
War zone, possible insurgents with weapons = threat = I would shoot them as well
 
As depressed as I am from seeing this and would not care to watch it again, Ive just shown it to my brother in law who (Im not going to go into too much detail) is a Royal Marine with 40 Commando , he just said "typical Yanks I'm afraid " (his comment not mine ) he very much gave me the impression that he was'nt to keen on going back to Afghan when the American forces pour in this year, and I think after 2 tours of Iraq ( spearhead into Basra ) and 2 of Afghan he's pretty qualified, he did tell me that there discipline is not that great , again his words not mine, no offence intended to any americans on the forum.
 
Keith W said:
War zone, possible insurgents with weapons = threat = I would shoot them as well
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Remember and not wander too far with your own camera then.... can't be having people wandering around with things like lenses, shovels, bits of pipe, or anything else that may resemble a weapon from 1km away, can we? :nono:
 
DekHog said:
Remember and not wander too far with your own camera then.... can't be having people wandering around with things like lenses, shovels, bits of pipe, or anything else that may resemble a weapon from 1km away, can we? :nono:
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There isn't a war zone outside my front door ;)
 
Keith W said:
There isn't a war zone outside my front door ;)
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... but there is outside some people's front doors.... does it make them fair game if they're carrying something the 'wrong' shape? Easy to say kill them sitting in an Apache, and obviously also easy to say sitting in front of your computer in the safety of your own (non war zone) home... :shrug:
 
DekHog said:
... but there is outside some people's front doors.... does it make them fair game if they're carrying something the 'wrong' shape? Easy to say kill them sitting in an Apache, and obviously also easy to say sitting in front of your computer in the safety of your own (non war zone) home... :shrug:
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Listen mate I have seen active service and if I thought for one second that someone was a threat to damn right I would I would shoot them.

War zones are not a stroll in the park you know, but then again its easy for you to spout that bull sat in front of your computer in the safety of your own home
 
Keith W said:
Listen mate I have seen active service and if I thought for one second that someone was a threat to damn right I would I would shoot them.

War zones are not a stroll in the park you know, but then again its easy for you to spout that bull sat in front of your computer in the safety of your own home
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People are entitled to their opinion on the evidence they see :thinking: The aircrew made their decision on what they saw, or thought they saw :shrug: If they made a mistake? then fair enough! but if it was the wrong decision? then it was wrong! .... If it was the right decision? then let them justify it!
 
Yes, but the majority of peoples opinions are based on no experience, no knowledge and facts reported by our superb media, who never talk crap to sell papers, do they?..........:)
 
Peoples opinions are generally based on what they are told by the media etc! ...I agree, but that's life... unfortunately! ... However when people see the video evidence for themselves and I do accept that it's always viewed with hindsight! However, they can allow themselves that golden moment of actually being able to judge for them self.
 
A very depressing watch, in the heat of the moment as Rob has said if you are looking out for a weapon and you see something that resembles one I'm sure your mind tells you it is. You have to be certain in the case to do what is your job and Im sure if any of those involved were asked prior to the event would you shoot at innocent people or those who didn;t have weapons then the answer would be no. Unfortunatley this will go down as another yank f**up but it was a warzone and you do hear plenty of praise for what they do. Just my thoughts.

for note I am not military and not a yank.

My last point would be that this does highlight the need for greater accuracy on the tools provided for the troops, the video quality was pretty poor, in this day and age can they not get greater resolution cameras ? If they could clearly see the 'camera' then their mind might step back and re-evaluate the situation.
 
fracster said:
By that statement, I assume you have experienced the pressure, futility and general crap that soldiers in warfare have to exist in?

Not excusing the Americans one iota, but sweeping statements from your safe European home doesn`t count for much.

Safe European Homes............Recorded by the Clash I do believe.............:thinking:
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You mean soldiers aren't trained to handle high intensity situations? Or that the years of experience some get through serving in conflict doesn't benefit them when it comes to decision making in the heat of the moment?

I think it's a bad excuse to cover up poor judgement and a lack of discipline and respect for life.
 
I can see how mistakes get made in the heat of war, but for me the shooting of the guys picking up the body is unjustifiable. And I have to say that the attitude of the US troops absolutely stinks. They come across as macho, bloodthirsty warmongers. And that seems to be institutionalised, with call signs like 'bushmaster' and the rest. What are they, in an Arnie film?
 
canaryherd said:
I can see how mistakes get made in the heat of war, but for me the shooting of the guys picking up the body is unjustifiable. And I have to say that the attitude of the US troops absolutely stinks. They come across as macho, bloodthirsty warmongers. And that seems to be institutionalised, with call signs like 'bushmaster' and the rest. What are they, in an Arnie film?
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Falcon, Bobcat, Jackal, Raider, Rambo ......... all RAF. It's a fighter jockey thing. They all do it - all countries. It's no big deal.
 
Not getting into this debate ;), but in response to ...

fracster said:
...

Safe European Homes............Recorded by the Clash I do believe.............:thinking:
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Yes Fracster, "Safe European Home" was indeed recorded by The Clash and featured on their second album, "Give 'Em Enough Rope".

Oddly, it was written about the experiences that Joe Strummer and Mick Jones had when they went to Jamaica on holiday (and to scout for possible recording studios, IIRC :thinking:). Basically, they were so intimidated by the Yardies there, that they were actually just relieved to get home in one piece :D (well, two pieces, technically ;))!

And now, back to the heated debate :nuts: ....
 
fracster said:
Yes, but the majority of peoples opinions are based on no experience, no knowledge and facts reported by our superb media, who never talk crap to sell papers, do they?..........:)
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That video isn't the media talking crap though, is it.
 
trencheel303 said:
That video isn't the media talking crap though, is it.
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Edited video, given the work over by the media, and others, and whipped up into a hysterical frenzy by said media and others

That video doesn't tell the whole story on what went on.
 
Keith W said:
Edited video, given the work over by the media, and others, and whipped up into a hysterical frenzy by said media and others

That video doesn't tell the whole story on what went on.
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Did you read any of the soldiers accounts of other incidents posted above? Not sure what they would have to gain by making such claims and they are direct quotes of named soldiers.

If we are going to start talking about media bias etc - think about the fact that probably the only reason we have heard about this is that there was a journalist working for a western news agency involved. Thousands of civilians get killed and it doesn't get much media attention at all.
 
Keith W said:
Edited video, given the work over by the media, and others, and whipped up into a hysterical frenzy by said media and others

That video doesn't tell the whole story on what went on.
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the video tells enough of the story to get 'the gist'.

what parts do you think were edited. are we talking sophisticated 'cuts' or do you genuinely think the voices were edited????????????
 
Keith W said:
Edited video, given the work over by the media, and others, and whipped up into a hysterical frenzy by said media and others

That video doesn't tell the whole story on what went on.
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Keith, Are you serious?!

Actual people (and children) who, were as far as I can tell, innocent were injured/killed by trigger happy servicemen. The guy who was firing was absolutely loving it! It makes me cringe when he says 'ooo wow look at the windscreen'

I can only begin to imagine how difficult the circumstances are in war zones, but it doesn't excuse the fact that innocent people were killed and injured. I want more of these videos leaked, we have the right to see them. It's also quite worrying that you say that you would have shot them as well...
 
War is never clean, no matter when or where it takes place, no matter whether we refer to the conflict as war, battle, police action, if trying to kill enemies or insurgents.

It is Hell on Earth. There is nothing good or great about it, it is dirty and 'inhuman' and not to the glory of anyone.

All those who die are someones' children.
 
PMK said:
Keith, Are you serious?!

Actual people (and children) who, were as far as I can tell, innocent were injured/killed by trigger happy servicemen. The guy who was firing was absolutely loving it! It makes me cringe when he says 'ooo wow look at the windscreen'

I can only begin to imagine how difficult the circumstances are in war zones, but it doesn't excuse the fact that innocent people were killed and injured. I want more of these videos leaked, we have the right to see them. It's also quite worrying that you say that you would have shot them as well...
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You want the right to see them?

Then join the forces and go out there and experience it for real!

If I thought they were a threat then to damn right I would have shot them as well
 
canaryherd said:
I can see how mistakes get made in the heat of war, but for me the shooting of the guys picking up the body is unjustifiable. And I have to say that the attitude of the US troops absolutely stinks. They come across as macho, bloodthirsty warmongers. And that seems to be institutionalised, with call signs like 'bushmaster' and the rest. What are they, in an Arnie film?
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Not nice to witness is it. Neither is the thought of what MI6 does (or MI5) So, don't look and don't think. We sleep in our beds at night and are safe in a generally peaceful and pleasant land due to threats being 'dealt with'.

With regard to the 'collection van', every man and his dog has one of those. Those people were thought to be collecting injured insurgent(s) but, more to the point, weapons and thus the ambush threat was still viable.

I'm not certain what people are expecting or wanting when they watch such videos? Have you seen the amount and area of damage from a 30mm shell?

It's no use being sent into a war zone with some of the thoughts and ideals that are being displayed in this thread. You kill or get killed.

Forgot to mention the most inflamatory aspect of this video and that is the chatter regarding dead people and accurate aiming etc. All nations do that, I am not condoning it for one moment, but it is a stress relief, of the moment thing (the Americans seem the excel at it with their gung-ho phrases, unfortunately)
 
Wow another thread.. a long one on the same subject?. That's not a dig at anyone at all, just odd we now have 2 really long threads.

It's really sad what happened.

But I can totally understand the viewpoint of the pilots / gunners.

It was said in teh other thread that the screen they look at is quite small.

2 points that stick for me.

1. they were definitely carrying guns
2. Why on earth point a telescopic lens at a gunship?
 
I've been biting my tongue reading this thread since it started and am still trying to hold back from typing a long post but there's one question I have to ask.

From the press coverage I've seen on TV of conflict zone reporters etc. always seem to wear those blue bullet-proof vests that distinguish them as press. Now I don't suppose it's obligatory for these to be worn but surely it'd be wise for press to make themselves distinguishable as such. If that was the case here then surely the pilots would have thought twice about whether a press guy was carrying an RPG and made them more likely to consider the possibility that he held a camera and not an RPG as he poked his around the corner. I'd also imagine the officer who gave permission to open fire would have thought twice before giving the go ahead to open fire on a group of insurgents that contained press who would inevitably get wrapped up in the gunfire. It's never going to be good for their public image. So should it not be necessary for press to wear something that makes them identifiable as non-combatants?

It would be an extremely stupid war photographer who goes into this career ignorant of the risks, let alone one who links up with a group of insurgents who appear to be carrying weapons. Tragic though it is they took the risks and paid the price.
 
Trev Rich said:
Wow another thread.. a long one on the same subject?. That's not a dig at anyone at all, just odd we now have 2 really long threads.

It's really sad what happened.

But I can totally understand the viewpoint of the pilots / gunners.

It was said in teh other thread that the screen they look at is quite small.

2 points that stick for me.

1. they were definitely carrying guns
2. Why on earth point a telescopic lens at a gunship?
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It is sad it happened. I can't understand the viewpoint of the gunners though. Sorry - but the first set of shooting I can at a push understand, the second though at people collecting the bodies.

To answer your points in particular.

1. Were they?
2. To take a photograph. As a journalist and a news photographer thats what you do.
 
TriggerHappy said:
I've been biting my tongue reading this thread since it started and am still trying to hold back from typing a long post but there's one question I have to ask.

From the press coverage I've seen on TV of conflict zone reporters etc. always seem to wear those blue bullet-proof vests that distinguish them as press. Now I don't suppose it's obligatory for these to be worn but surely it'd be wise for press to make themselves distinguishable as such. If that was the case here then surely the pilots would have thought twice about whether a press guy was carrying an RPG and made them more likely to consider the possibility that he held a camera and not an RPG as he poked his around the corner. I'd also imagine the officer who gave permission to open fire would have thought twice before giving the go ahead to open fire on a group of insurgents that contained press who would inevitably get wrapped up in the gunfire. It's never going to be good for their public image. So should it not be necessary for press to wear something that makes them identifiable as non-combatants?

It would be an extremely stupid war photographer who goes into this career ignorant of the risks, let alone one who links up with a group of insurgents who appear to be carrying weapons. Tragic though it is they took the risks and paid the price.
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If blue bullet proof vest stopped you getting shot then the insurgents would be wearing them wouldn't they;)
 
The sickening part is the thorough enjoyment the US forces were getting out of the situation. !!:clap: It`s been said by Us forces who have "come home" that they were sickened by the lack of discipline within their forces...this clearly shows the type of people they are !!...and the kicks they get from murdering people !!...but they will find a way, or an excuse, to justify it.:thumbsdown:
 
boyfalldown said:
2. To take a photograph. As a journalist and a news photographer thats what you do.
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Then that's a risk you accept as part of the job IMO.
 
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