Wage for a grassroots sports photographer?

Jackietheo

Jackietheo

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Jacqueline
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Hi,

So I have experience in the past photographing league 2 - championship football but I've not been able to get proper work from this as my local club has their own club photographers already and the rest was for a sports photography agency that was only pay per publication.

Now I recently found out my cousin-in-law has started coaching at a grassroots club near to me that are for youths and kids and upon mentioning about whether they had a club photographer, the chairman was very interested in the idea and I am due to give him a call tomorrow, so great news!

So I guess I am curious what others would accept as a pay per match for saying they're only grassroots level. I know from connections a photographer for a championship team is being paid £120 per game and a club photographer for a league 1 team is being paid £50 a home game and £75 for an away game... So the wages seem to vary but I obviously understand it depends on the clubs budget.
 
Jackietheo said:
Hi,

So I have experience in the past photographing league 2 - championship football but I've not been able to get proper work from this as my local club has their own club photographers already and the rest was for a sports photography agency that was only pay per publication.

Now I recently found out my cousin-in-law has started coaching at a grassroots club near to me that are for youths and kids and upon mentioning about whether they had a club photographer, the chairman was very interested in the idea and I am due to give him a call tomorrow, so great news!

So I guess I am curious what others would accept as a pay per match for saying they're only grassroots level. I know from connections a photographer for a championship team is being paid £120 per game and a club photographer for a league 1 team is being paid £50 a home game and £75 for an away game... So the wages seem to vary but I obviously understand it depends on the clubs budget.
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You ought to expand your connections, I know a Championship club photographer on double that, and a League One who was on four times that!
 
purpleclouds said:
You ought to expand your connections, I know a Championship club photographer on double that, and a League One who was on four times that!
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Haha I know! The league 1 wage is a joke I think! But any advise with my question? The opportunity would give me regular work over the winter period which is when I'm quiet plus I've always wanted to do some football in my workload. But I want my time put into it to be worth the money too.
 
Jackietheo said:
Haha I know! The league 1 wage is a joke I think! But any advise with my question? The opportunity would give me regular work over the winter period which is when I'm quiet plus I've always wanted to do some football in my workload. But I want my time put into it to be worth the money too.
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As you say, it'll depend on their budget. Sadly though, if they're only grassroots then it's likely that the budget will be around zero. I might be wrong, but I can't think of anyone who earns anything from a non-league club in my local area.. they do it for the love of it, just like the tea lady! That's not to say that it's not worth looking in to, but you might have to have your best business head on and glean a little amount from multiple sources for the same set of images.
 
The range in what people charge per game (personally I like to agree a 'per season' deal with clubs) does vary a lot . but normally the minimum I charge per game is around 150 (+vat).
But maybe think how long you have to travel to get to the games, how long you'll spend at the game, how long editing after the game... and then count what would be an acceptable fee for yourself.
Where as for someone.. 25 per game is something they are happy with.... there are others who would not do a game for less than 500.

Lets say you spend a total of 6 hours for all together.. you can then count yourself what you'd be happy with per hour.. and make your first offer slightly higher than than, because you know they'll want to bargain it down ;-)

You can also think whether there is any chance you'd be selling images to players/parents/media .. and count that to your offer.
If you feel/know that you can make some money this way - your offer to the club can be reflected on it.

And as Phil mentioned.. on the grassroots level the payment can sometimes be the halftime pie and tea...
 
GooGaBu said:
The range in what people charge per game (personally I like to agree a 'per season' deal with clubs) does vary a lot . but normally the minimum I charge per game is around 150 (+vat).
But maybe think how long you have to travel to get to the games, how long you'll spend at the game, how long editing after the game... and then count what would be an acceptable fee for yourself.
Where as for someone.. 25 per game is something they are happy with.... there are others who would not do a game for less than 500.

Lets say you spend a total of 6 hours for all together.. you can then count yourself what you'd be happy with per hour.. and make your first offer slightly higher than than, because you know they'll want to bargain it down ;-)

You can also think whether there is any chance you'd be selling images to players/parents/media .. and count that to your offer.
If you feel/know that you can make some money this way - your offer to the club can be reflected on it.

And as Phil mentioned.. on the grassroots level the payment can sometimes be the halftime pie and tea...
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The club is only 15 minutes via car but I'm not sure yet what work they'd want me to cover. They have like 18 teams of girls and boys of different ages so I doubt they'd want me to cover every match, it wouldn't be possible.

Yeah £25 is definitely too low for me. I have seen the time that goes into football photography at the league clubs, whether it'll be different there I don't know.

I'm really hoping they don't turn around and say about having no budget and expecting me to work for free [emoji848]
 
Jackietheo said:
The club is only 15 minutes via car but I'm not sure yet what work they'd want me to cover. They have like 18 teams of girls and boys of different ages so I doubt they'd want me to cover every match, it wouldn't be possible.

Yeah £25 is definitely too low for me. I have seen the time that goes into football photography at the league clubs, whether it'll be different there I don't know.

I'm really hoping they don't turn around and say about having no budget and expecting me to work for free [emoji848]
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If they have that many age groups... one question you can ask yourself... would you be able/willing to do the profile/portrait photos of all those age groups??
One time I had a deal with a club and they paid me about 150 per game to cover the senior team (home&away) - and then every year I did the profile/portraits of the junior teams.. and sold those prints to parents, which probably made me more profit than covering the senior team.

So whether this is something you currently do, or would be happy to venture into.. you could offer this as part of your package to the club?

And good clubs still do appreciate the professionally taken images, and in most cases as willing to pay for them.

Set yourself a limit that you don't want to go below, and stick to it.... one thing that also seems to work is that don't say yes or no during the phonecall.. say that you want to think it overnight.
This gives you the opportunity to think whether their offer is good enough for you.. and might even make the club raise their offer slightly (if they REALLY want you to cover their games).
 
GooGaBu said:
If they have that many age groups... one question you can ask yourself... would you be able/willing to do the profile/portrait photos of all those age groups??
One time I had a deal with a club and they paid me about 150 per game to cover the senior team (home&away) - and then every year I did the profile/portraits of the junior teams.. and sold those prints to parents, which probably made me more profit than covering the senior team.

So whether this is something you currently do, or would be happy to venture into.. you could offer this as part of your package to the club?

And good clubs still do appreciate the professionally taken images, and in most cases as willing to pay for them.

Set yourself a limit that you don't want to go below, and stick to it.... one thing that also seems to work is that don't say yes or no during the phonecall.. say that you want to think it overnight.
This gives you the opportunity to think whether their offer is good enough for you.. and might even make the club raise their offer slightly (if they REALLY want you to cover their games).
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I would definitely consider doing the portraits of the team and group photos. Like you say most clubs still appreciate professional photographs and I think parents do too. I mean look at what people pay for the H Tempest packages for schools and universities!

I will definitely have a think about a set price to stick to for the club. I'm curious what sort of budget they will have but that's me being impatient lol
 
Don't hold your breath. Most non-league clubs depend on volunteers. Your best option might be taking pics, selling them to parents etc by making them available online.
 
Remember there are idiots out there that are prepared to photograph pro football for free if not pay to do it.
 
shapeshifter said:
Remember there are idiots out there that are prepared to photograph pro football for free if not pay to do it.
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Yeah I know there are and they're ruining photography as a career for us! Know plenty like that. I think they know there will be some cost as my cousin-in-law mentioned that's what the phone call would be tomorrow so at least I know that bit! Just not sure how much it will be though
 
Really? It's a professional sports club, based at a uni in a minority sport. Indirect insults don't actually prove your point.
 
No skin off my nose. You're the one that wandered on to here looking to get offended.

And yes, if you volunteer to shoot professional sport for free when almost everyone else is getting paid, then you are a mug. Just as bad, you are screwing over the industry.
 
DemiLion said:
No skin off my nose. You're the one that wandered on to here looking to get offended.

And yes, if you volunteer to shoot professional sport for free when almost everyone else is getting paid, then you are a mug. Just as bad, you are screwing over the industry.
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There are people for whom phoptography is a hobby they enjoy. They are prepared to invest thousands of pounds into the hobby for nothing more than the rewarded of talking photographs. I’ll hazard that this applies to the majority of the members on this forum.

There are people who love a sport, and are prepared to pay good money over to go and attend an event. If they are members here, they probably take their cameras with them, and photography what they can when they can.

Is it that surprising therefore that if offered the opportunity to combine both, and get access to better vantage points, perhaps closer to sportsmen and women, they would jump at the chance? Does that make them idiots? I don’t think so. If they love it, they do it, if they don’t, they stop?

I’ll be very open, I was ever offered the opportunity to photograph Goodwood FoS or F1, I’d absolutely jump at the chance.That’s not going to happen though, as I can’t provide the same exposure as the professionals, with their networks of publications, contacts, channels etc. Perhaps I don’t have the proven track record to deliver in any and all conditions, and they do etc.

Every industry is subject to ‘disruption’, only an ostrich buries its head in the sand and shouts down the distruptors. The smart ones adapt and innovate.
 
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What the aim here Jackie..? Is it specifically shooting football, or to earn some money shooting sports?

The reason that I ask is that I run a sports photography business and we're out probably 45 out of 52 weeks a year shooting. I employ freelance photographers most weekends across a variety of different sports including football, rugby, equestrian and some indoor based sports as well.

There are plenty of other companies who do this.. so maybe thats a path to venture down.

We're based in London, but I can probably put you in touch with someone local (wherever you are) through our photographers network.
 
Jerm said:
What the aim here Jackie..? Is it specifically shooting football, or to earn some money shooting sports?

The reason that I ask is that I run a sports photography business and we're out probably 45 out of 52 weeks a year shooting. I employ freelance photographers most weekends across a variety of different sports including football, rugby, equestrian and some indoor based sports as well.

There are plenty of other companies who do this.. so maybe thats a path to venture down.

We're based in London, but I can probably put you in touch with someone local (wherever you are) through our photographers network.
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The aim is for both of those really. I have gone down the sports agency route where its pay per publication and I don't find you make any money with it. But football or sports photography in general is something I want to incorporate into my work load more often.

I currently shoot a fair bit of corporate stuff, for businesses, schools and I work freelance for my paper too but I need to up my workload. Of course football is something that would keep me income regular over the winter months when it's quieter too.

I'd be happy for you to message me more direct with some more details?
 
Furtim said:
There are people for whom phoptography is a hobby they enjoy. They are prepared to invest thousands of pounds into the hobby for nothing more than the rewarded of talking photographs. I’ll hazard that this applies to the majority of the members on this forum.

There are people who love a sport, and are prepared to pay good money over to go and attend an event. If they are members here, they probably take their cameras with them, and photography what they can when they can.

Is it that surprising therefore that if offered the opportunity to combine both, and get access to better vantage points, perhaps closer to sportsmen and women, they would jump at the chance? Does that make them idiots? I don’t think so. If they love it, they do it, if they don’t, they stop?

I’ll be very open, I was ever offered the opportunity to photograph Goodwood FoS or F1, I’d absolutely jump at the chance.That’s not going to happen though, as I can’t provide the same exposure as the professionals, with their networks of publications, contacts, channels etc. Perhaps I don’t have the proven track record to deliver in any and all conditions, and they do etc.

Every industry is subject to ‘disruption’, only an ostrich buries its head in the sand and shouts down the distruptors. The smart ones adapt and innovate.
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You miss the point. Yes go and do it, a hobby or whatever.

But don't give the photos away, make the people who want them pay. That's the point.
 
Chipper said:
Supporting a local club in any sport does not = idiot. No need for that.
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I don't know if I would class a local club pro football.
One does not have to take photos for free to support a local club,just give the club money and let the photographers charge people who want photos.
 
Jerm said:
What the aim here Jackie..? Is it specifically shooting football, or to earn some money shooting sports?

The reason that I ask is that I run a sports photography business and we're out probably 45 out of 52 weeks a year shooting. I employ freelance photographers most weekends across a variety of different sports including football, rugby, equestrian and some indoor based sports as well.

There are plenty of other companies who do this.. so maybe thats a path to venture down.

We're based in London, but I can probably put you in touch with someone local (wherever you are) through our photographers network.
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this post should be the answer to your dreams :) You have to first understand that sports photogrpahy and football photogrpahy are not the same thing.. if you fixate on football and especialy pro football your not going to make the money... its sports photogrpahy.. a wide range of different sports inside and outside.. top earner for me.. junior gymnastics... bottom earner.. pro football .....
 
shapeshifter said:
Remember there are idiots out there that are prepared to photograph pro football for free if not pay to do it.
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the people taking offence at your post havent a clue what your talking about.. they saw a couple of key words and jumped on it..

this thread is about being a club photogrpaher... PRO was mentioned.... thus if they follow the thread.. being a pro football club photogrpaher WORKING for free = idiot.. In case they still dont get it.. I put the key word in caps, bold and red :)

being a pro club photogrpahers isnt all about getting the best positions and being close to the sports people they adore.. its about commitng to every match..saturdays and midweek.. home and away.. its about 600 mile round trips in poor road and weather conditions on a tuesday night then sitting in the freezing cold or rain for 2 hrs photogrpahing and working the laptop for the lcubs twitter feed... to be a pro club photogrpaher working for free means your using there licence.. which means you dont even own the copyright to the pics.. you cant even put them on your own website without the clubs permission.. all your allowed to do is hand them over to the club.. you dont get any thanks .. you will get moaned at if you missed the important goal though.. your name will be in tiny print on the inside cover of the program and aprt from your family and mates nobody else will be interested who took them .. lower leagues pro and you dont even get a media room.. the away club stewards treat you like a ...well.. not nice.. theres some nice bits to the job but for the most part your a doormat ...

its hard work.. long hrs ,thankless and you dont even own the pics you take and worse of all.. your stopping someone who could be paid for doing it.. ie yourself.....so yes.. a freebie pro football club photogrpaher= idiot

I can fully understand someone wanting to experience it.. indeed i have got people from this forum into the odd match many yrs ago.. that experience is invaluable... the odd match.. nothign against that,... but an actual club photogrpaher for a pro football club ?
 
KIPAX said:
this post should be the answer to your dreams :) You have to first understand that sports photogrpahy and football photogrpahy are not the same thing.. if you fixate on football and especialy pro football your not going to make the money... its sports photogrpahy.. a wide range of different sports inside and outside.. top earner for me.. junior gymnastics... bottom earner.. pro football .....
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Your right. I keep saying football because that's the sport I have most experience in but I'd love the idea of expanding the sports I shoot
 
Jackietheo said:
Your right. I keep saying football because that's the sport I have most experience in but I'd love the idea of expanding the sports I shoot
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yeagh its easy to say football when you mean sports.. But I also come across so many people who say they want to be a sports photogrpaher then are deflated when they realise they arnt going to be at premier grounds and cup finals working one day a week making a fortune :) present company excepted :)
 
KIPAX said:
yeagh its easy to say football when you mean sports.. But I also come across so many people who say they want to be a sports photogrpaher then are deflated when they realise they arnt going to be at premier grounds and cup finals working one day a week making a fortune :)
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It's always nice to say you work for the big clubs or at finals but that isn't everything. I was with an agency for abit but there was no money in it. Also the competition is mental at the bigger games!
 
Jackietheo said:
It's always nice to say you work for the big clubs or at finals but that isn't everything. I was with an agency for abit but there was no money in it. Also the competition is mental at the bigger games!
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I think at most levels ..spec games are dead.. too many deals done.. if you spec for an agency thats done a deal then your not going to make much anyways.. I average about 120 to 140 quid for a pic in the sun for example.. people are now being published through places like REX and getting 5 to 10 quid or less for the same showings... getting to the point where its not worth sending now as its rare the papers will pic a freelance spec over an agency... still doable.. but so far and few between its not worth it..

I always tell people the same little story.... one a wed night a couple of seasons ago manu utd and arsenal i think.. few top games being played in the uk inc ueropean games... the grounds where wall to walll photogrpahers mostly on spec.. I was at what can only be described as an up market field photogrpahing a girls junior football match.... I guarantee i made more money than a hundred or more photogrpahers that night... they can go home and tell there friends what a great match and venue they where at..there mates tell them how great they are and how they deserve to be at such a top game... they made no money and it cost them to do the job........ i take my flask and big coat home and count my money :) NOTHING WRONG WITH WORKING ON SPEC .. did it myself for too long when you could get published.. all i am saying is that for the most part them days are gone..IMHO. some can still make a pretty penny out of it.. but 40 photogrpahers at a man utd v man city game... how many make money ? while i sit in a field coining it in ? :)
 
KIPAX said:
I think at most levels ..spec games are dead.. too many deals done.. if you spec for an agency thats done a deal then your not going to make much anyways.. I average about 120 to 140 quid for a pic in the sun for example.. people are now being published through places like REX and getting 5 to 10 quid or less for the same showings... getting to the point where its not worth sending now as its rare the papers will pic a freelance spec over an agency... still doable.. but so far and few between its not worth it..

I always tell people the same little story.... one a wed night a couple of seasons ago manu utd and arsenal i think.. few top games being played in the uk inc ueropean games... the grounds where wall to walll photogrpahers mostly on spec.. I was at what can only be described as an up market field photogrpahing a girls junior football match.... I guarantee i made more money than a hundred or more photogrpahers that night... they can go home and tell there friends what a great match and venue they where at..there mates tell them how great they are and how they deserve to be at such a top game... they made no money and it cost them to do the job........ i take my flask and big coat home and count my money :) NOTHING WRONG WITH WORKING ON SPEC .. did it myself for too long when you could get published.. all i am saying is that for the most part them days are gone..IMHO. some can still make a pretty penny out of it.. but 40 photogrpahers at a man utd v man city game... how many make money ? while i sit in a field coining it in ? :)
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That last statement " 40 togs at a match how many make money" that is what I don't get!

Some of those togs at that match have done over 100+ miles to get to the match in car,I am not guessing they tell me that. When one looks at what is being paid by the papers how can thse togs or the companies they work for make any money.

The simple undeniable mathematics is that they are not making any money and are doing at their own cost.

Even the big agencies who have contracts for premier league must struggle. Just think 40 togs at a match at least two from each agency sometime four.

Yet only half a dozen papers to publish in next day. Lets say 8 papers publish the match the next day paying £300 each = 8x 300 = £2400 paid out for photos for that match. =£60 per tog less petrol. That's before the agency they work for has taken a penny!

Just my thoughts on the matter figs are ests of cours but I think it goes to show the point that there is a lot more is going on than meets the eye by far.
 
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shapeshifter said:
That last statement " 40 togs at a match how many make money" that is what I don't get!

Some of those togs at that match have done over 100+ miles to get to the match in car,I am not guessing they tell me that. When one looks at what is being paid by the papers how can thse togs or the companies they work for make any money.

The simple undeniable mathematics is that they are not making any money and are doing at their own cost.

Even the big agencies who have contracts for premier league must struggle. Just think 40 togs at a match at least two from each agency sometime four.

Yet only half a dozen papers to publish in next day. Lets say 8 papers publish the match the next day paying £300 each = 8x 300 = £2400 paid out for photos for that match. =£60 per tog less petrol. That's before the agency they work for has taken a penny!

Just my thoughts on the matter figs are ests of cours but I think it goes to show the point that there is a lot more is going on than meets the eye by far.
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I ahve seen 40 at a match .. I am not sure how many there wil be regular but its certainly more than there are papers... A couple of seasons ago I walked onto pitchside fletwood v preston ..to be greeted by a photogrpaher who just said to me... 23 .. I said eh? he said 23.. he saw the confused look and said your the 23rd photogrpaher........it was a bog standard match..... I got a lovely pic in the mirror the day after hahaha :) some matches its just plain stupid.... i ahve been at an accrington stanley match with 8 photogrpahers for a bog standard game.. not all on the wire though...
 
shapeshifter said:
I don't know if I would class a local club pro football.
One does not have to take photos for free to support a local club,just give the club money and let the photographers charge people who want photos.
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It’s not football.
 
Chipper said:
It’s not football.
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this thread is about football.. the comment your replied to is about football. you seem to have decided to take a couple of words and apply it to somethign different in order to be offended or have an argument...
 
shapeshifter said:
You miss the point. Yes go and do it, a hobby or whatever.

But don't give the photos away, make the people who want them pay. That's the point.
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My point was people who derive pleasure from photography + sport as a hobby exist.
For them, perhaps the reward of being able to combine the two is sufficient and they are happy to give their images away.

Whether you like it or not, it's not for you to judge what works for others, and before you cry "won't someone think of the pros", the second part of my post suggested that perhaps the hungry pro's need to ensure they provide something above and beyond that the guy or gal above can. This can be as simple as turning up and shooting week in / week out come rain or shine etc.

After all both parties are bartering - one just isn't for cash, it's for access - the relative value of both may be different between two people. To be clear, I'm not bashing the pros. I can easily understand that reliability, commitment plus experience and a proven track record of delivery is a package that has value and is worth paying for if that's what you need.
 
Furtim said:
My point was people who derive pleasure from photography + sport as a hobby exist.
For them, perhaps the reward of being able to combine the two is sufficient and they are happy to give their images away.

Whether you like it or not, it's not for you to judge what works for others, and before you cry "won't someone think of the pros", the second part of my post suggested that perhaps the hungry pro's need to ensure they provide something above and beyond that the guy or gal above can. This can be as simple as turning up and shooting week in / week out come rain or shine etc.

After all both parties are bartering - one just isn't for cash, it's for access - the relative value of both may be different between two people. To be clear, I'm not bashing the pros. I can easily understand that reliability, commitment plus experience and a proven track record of delivery is a package that has value and is worth paying for if that's what you need.
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WORKING FOR FREE.. thats the problem.. photogrpahing for free... no problem... this thread is about being a club photogrpaher.. read my earlier post explaining what that is.. its a JOB!!


oh well :)
 
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KIPAX said:
this thread is about football.. the comment your replied to is about football. you seem to have decided to take a couple of words and apply it to somethign different in order to be offended or have an argument...
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Well, the thread title was about sports not just football. And I wasn't looking to be offended; I was curious. I began taking photographs when I visited this particular basketball club before they were in the BBL. I have supported them for over 10 years. There is no big money in the BBL and the BBL photographer who did come to some matches did not lose his job because I was there. He left England and returned to Europe after the Brexit vote. Given the nature of the BBL, with players coming and going every season because they use the league as a springboard for Europe, it is no surprise to me and those who attend matches as fans in seats, that there is very little money in the league. I understand that it is frustrating when newspapers open free photo forums and describe them as clubs; I do not send them my images. It is hard for photographers in an age where imagery floods all forms of media. I have read the thread that became quite heated about giving away images; I have been to the photography show year after year and seen professional photographers [identifiable by their badges] rarely looking happy. It is a very pressured job, whatever it is that is photographed. There are, however, always going to be people who enjoy photography as a hobby; I was pursued by somebody when photographing at a [3rd] celebration of a friend's wedding [they had already employed photographers for the formal celebrations on another day; this gathering was very informal and just for friends and those who didn't travel]. It is what it is and, sadly, it won't go away. As for people at professional football matches, how on earth do they get access? Surely they have to be licenced by the Premier League or Championship or whatever?
 
KIPAX said:
WORKING FOR FREE.. thats the problem.. photogrpahing for free... no problem... this thread is about being a club photogrpaher.. read my earlier post explaining what that is.. its a JOB!!


oh well :)
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Looking after and teaching kids is also a paid job for some. For others (scouting etc), it's a hobby.
Developing software for some is a job, for others it's a hobby.
Counselling is a job for some, for others its something they do for free.
Paramedic is a job for some, for others they do this for free (St Johns etc)

Photography isn't some bloody special profession above all others you know.

Or is every scout leader, freeware developer, Samaritan or St John's Ambulance an IDIOT?
You're sitting there happily using the product of at least one of those - have you no shame?
No to mention the operators of this particular forum - Don't they know others are out there getting paid for operating communities?

Or do none of these apply - because sports is 'special'?
 
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