Was I taken for a fool?

Eddzz!!

Eddzz!!

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Eddy
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:shake:

I'm not the richest of fellas (not yet anyway, I'm trying :p) so when it comes to gear I tread carefully and do my research and I do my utmost to obtain decent value for money. I often shop about in the classifieds here before I think to look elsewhere for there are always bargains to be had!

Back in July last year I picked myself up a new camera, a Canon EOS 7D. Bought it from Panamoz when they were selling them off cheap and with the sale of my 60D I managed to get a 7D for just over £100 more, which was fairly decent in my eyes!

I also obtained myself two more bits of glass, both pre-owned and both sold to me on here. Firstly was the 24-105 f/4L. After scouting about I ended up paying £510 for the lens. It was a 2008 model. Apparently this was a *bargain* price and if he were to accept anything less I would have been 'robbing him'. I also picked up a 10-22 f/3.5-4.5 for £395 of around the same age. After using the 24-105 f/4 for about two months, it broke. Completely out of the blue. It wasn't exposed to any nasty drops or bumps, but the aperture diaphragm packed in and cost me £179.23 incl. VAT to have fixed by Fixation. :gag: I also fear the 10-22 may suffer the same fate, as since the day I received it there has been a slight grind/stiffness to the manual focus wheel.

I don't mean to condemn TP Traders as a whole because this is a trusted community, but have I been taken for a fool? :thinking:
 
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to be fair , breaking 2 months later isnt really the sellers fault, any lens can break at any time so it doesnt necessarily sggest that he's sold you a lemon.

the grind in the focus wheel of the 10-22 is more of a concern, but the time to address that was imediately you recieved it, not two months later
 
you probably don't like to hear this, but 2 months time have passed, seems reasonable for it to be assumed fault free when the seller sold it.
 
Eddzz!! said:
After using the 24-105 f/4 for about two months, it broke. Completely out of the blue.
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So it wasn't broke when you received it?

Eddzz!! said:
I also fear the 10-22 may suffer the same fate, as since the day I received it there has been a slight grind/stiffness to the manual focus wheel.
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Did you accept it in that state ... complain/give feedback?
 
i agree as above - its a risk you take when buying second hand from anywhere without warranty....

However, if the 10-22 was faulty on receipt, then that was the time to say something.

I think the 24-105 was just bad luck
 
Thanks for the response.

I did contact the seller about the 10-22 and he didn't offer a refund or compensation. He replied:

I did briefly consider the focus ring when I was checking it over before listing it. In the end, not having another copy to compare against to see if it was somehow worse than what you'd expect given it's age, and after I'd done the AF tests (I put the camera in servo and tracked some moving cars just fine) I concluded that as there were no problems with AF performance, it was fine. I do find these things difficult to judge though since I've been spoilt with the silky smooth focus rings on my L glass - all of my consumer grade zoom lenses just don't seem as good, esp the slightly older ones.

The lens itself has never been in for servicing, and I've never had a problem with any aspect of it, including the focusing. And I try to be very careful with all my lenses and keep them in tip-top condition.
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Obviously with me not knowing any better, I just took his word for it!
 
Brand new items can go wrong just as easy so S/H is always a gamble without the warranty.
 
Hi Eddy, I just realised that it was me that sold you the 24-105 - I am of course sorry to hear that you have had trouble with it - especially expensive trouble.

I can assure you of two things.
1) I did not and do not take you for a fool.
2) £510 remains a pretty good price for a 24-105mm. I bought it for something like £575 and used it perhaps twice!

I would be gutted too, but unfortunately these things can and do happen, and none of us have any idea when that might occur. For instance I've had an almost brand new 50mm f1.4 simply pack up on me for no apparent reason, AF completely died, and with no paperwork I ended up just selling it as s&r at a big loss. On the other side of the coin, until recently I used a 1993 model 200mm f2.8 mk 1 lens that operated flawlessly throughout all the years I had it, and presumably also for whoever had it before I did.

I think you have just been rather unlucky, like I said I would be rather annoyed too. However, in order to maintain my good rep as a seller, I would like to set the record straight (not that it has been bent, but anyway) that your feedback at the time was; Lens has been tested with my new Canon EOS 7D body and is all working flawlessly. Love the lens - great piece of glass! Thanks again Jonathan. +1 feedback left. Eddy

Best Wishes
Jonathan
 
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The 24-105 has acquired a reputation for needing repairs but I think it's a statistical effect from there being so many copies out there.
It doesn't appear on these lists for example - and it's surprising what is rather high up on the scale.

I think you've just been unlucky.
It's an unfortunate fact that sometimes buying used is not the bargain it appears.

www.lensrentals.com/blog/2009/05/lens-repair-data-3-0

www.lensrentals.com/blog/2009/11/lens-repair-data-3-5

www.lensrentals.com/blog/2010/09/lens-repair-data-4-0
 
Eddzz!! said:
Thanks for the response.

I did contact the seller about the 10-22 and he didn't offer a refund or compensation. He replied:



Obviously with me not knowing any better, I just took his word for it!
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If you ask me he should have listed that if he had concerns of any kind regarding the focus
 
Flats said:
Hi Eddy, I just realised that it was me that sold you the 24-105 - I am of course sorry to hear that you have had trouble with it - especially expensive trouble....

Best Wishes
Jonathan
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Hi Jonathan,

Yeah, I thought I wouldn't mention any names as I didn't want to tarnish any future buyers' trust in sellers like yourself. Anyway, I would have contacted you directly but didn't want to instigate any bad feelings. As I said, my trust in the classifieds community here still remains as high as ever, but as you know the internet can be a dodgy place. I guess the reason I posted this thread was because I have seen quite a few more (newer) 24-105s floating about the place for quite a bit cheaper, but I guess that's just the way that buying and selling works!
 
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DTS said:
If you ask me he should have listed that if he had concerns of any kind regarding the focus
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+1 to that; the seller clearly acknowledges that he thought something may be amiss, yet didn't disclose until you queried it, tut tut.
 
DTS said:
If you ask me he should have listed that if he had concerns of any kind regarding the focus
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Nifkin said:
+1 to that; the seller clearly acknowledges that he thought something may be amiss, yet didn't disclose until you queried it, tut tut.
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This does slightly alter the 'black & white' aspect of the issue.
 
Eddy, it may be better for you to stick to buying new items...
 
As many have said - it does appear to be the luck of the draw!
 
ernesto said:
Eddy, it may be better for you to stick to buying new items...
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This.

Used items, whether they be lenses, bodies, cars, houses, yachts, whatever really, come with a higher risk of going wrong and needing repairs. They do however come at a lower cost than a new item.

If you want the support and backup of a new item you should spend more and buy new. If you want to spend used money you should accept a higher degree of risk.
 
Eddzz!! said:
:shake:

I don't mean to condemn TP Traders as a whole because this is a trusted community, but have I been taken for a fool? :thinking:
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No don't think you have been taken for a fool at all, but think you've been very unlucky with the 24-105 lens.
I do think its also a bit late to feel you're not happy with the 10-20mm - you should have returned it at the time of receiving it if you weren't happy with it.
I hope you don't have any problems with the 10-20mm lens and hope you enjoy it for years to come. :-)
 
I think the OP has only made a fool of himself by starting this thread.

You bought a lens in July '12 which worked perfectly well when you bought it but went faulty 2 months later yet you wait until Jan '13 to ask if you were madea fool of.

If I was Flats I'd be absolutely fuming that you've started this thread because you may not have named names but your feedback is easily traced back to him which shows he clearly sold you a very good lens that you were unlucky with.
 
These things tend to happen. Be it with brand new equipment or second hand. It's just that there's someone to blame potentially when it's second hand.

Live with the experience and if it's put you off that much then stick to spending more on brand new equipment. If it brakes you can claim under warranty. If it breaks 4 days after the warranty ends the company will still chalk that down to a successful item surpassing the warranty.
 
-Rob- said:
I think the OP has only made a fool of himself by starting this thread.

You bought a lens in July '12 which worked perfectly well when you bought it but went faulty 2 months later yet you wait until Jan '13 to ask if you were madea fool of.

If I was Flats I'd be absolutely fuming that you've started this thread because you may not have named names but your feedback is easily traced back to him which shows he clearly sold you a very good lens that you were unlucky with.
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Chill out.
 
4wd said:
The 24-105 has acquired a reputation for needing repairs but I think it's a statistical effect from there being so many copies out there.
It doesn't appear on these lists for example - and it's surprising what is rather high up on the scale.

I think you've just been unlucky.
It's an unfortunate fact that sometimes buying used is not the bargain it appears.

www.lensrentals.com/blog/2009/05/lens-repair-data-3-0

www.lensrentals.com/blog/2009/11/lens-repair-data-3-5

www.lensrentals.com/blog/2010/09/lens-repair-data-4-0
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Great info - certainly makes interesting reading :)


I think the thing we all need to remember is caveat emptor - as long as the seller doesn't knowingly conceal something then it's up to the buyer to satisfy themselves that what they're buying is in full working order. I appreciate that this is harder to do when items are being sent, so all the more reason to buy face to face.

It sounds like the 24-105 was sold in good faith (if I was the seller I'd have a clear conscience, unless I knew different :p), the 10-22 perhaps a little less so. As a fairly regular seller of stuff (and a picky one at that) it's hard to know when to draw the line with descriptions - deciding what is and isn't relevent and significant, as well as how much info to add - fastideously listing everything in painstaking detail can make a great item sould a lot worse than an inferior alternative described simply as "good condition".

It's largely down to a difference in how anal and observant people are - to put this into context in my case; people are more usually pleasantly surprised by the condition of items I've sold them than I am with used items I've bought.

If it makes the OP any happier, my 10-22 (owned from new) doesn't have the smoothest focus ring in the world.

Finally, buying new is a worthwhile proposition with photographic gear (particularly lenses) since it doesn't depriciate much, relative to other shiney expensive trinkets.

I had a look at the 16-35L II - best new price is £1075, average used on ebay is £850; so they've lost about 21%. There was one 16-35L I for about £670; so that's a lens that's at least 2-3yrs old (and more importantly a model that's been superceded) retaining around 55-60% of the cost of a new alternative, and probably more like 65-70% of what it would originally have cost.

Compare this to buying a new car, which will lose 25-50% of it's value in the first three years and continue to fall, whereas glass seems to plateau out; at least until a newer model is released.

Some things make great used buys - especially things that you understand and are user serviceable. Others, such as lenses, do not IMO.
 
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tbm said:
It sounds like the 24-105 was sold in good faith (if I was the seller I'd have a clear conscience, unless I knew different :p),
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I do, though I feel for Eddy. I could have ignored this thread - which I found entirely by chance, by the way - but I felt it important I come on and a)commiserate, and b) put my side of the story, that the lens was imho perfectly described and in excellent condition at the point of sale, hence Eddy's feedback at the time.

As it happens, when I gave feedback to Eddy, I appear to have selected the wrong deal thread - which seems to relate to a flash I sold to somebody else. But I definitely recalled selling something to Eddy, so when I checked my own feedback, there he was, and it was indeed this 24-105 lens. So I came on the thread anyway, even though my name could never have been associated with the sale.

Rgds
Jonathan
 
I probably won't make many friends for saying this, but in my view, playing £510 for a lens you could buy from HDEW for £589 (prob.cheaper from Panamoz) is just far too much. If you think about the risks, of which premature failure of the lens is one of many, including getting outright ripped off, getting a poor copy, condition not as described, AF calibration issues, decentering issues, shipping damage.... I can't think why anybody would pay £510 for a s/h lens when a new one is £590? Why would you do it?

I know it's great that people can move gear on without loosing too much, but you have to asses the risks, and my personal view is that the s/h prices of camera gear are far too high too make any kind of sense.
 
but not everyone wants to buy grey imports (not least because most of the issues you mention apply to them too) - and the uk new price is significantly higher

also 510 for a lens with is 590 new (grey) is still an 80 quid saving (arround 15% )
 
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I don't think price has any bearing on this issue, all buyer should do their own homework and pay what they decide is the right price for the equipment - if anyone buys something at over the market value they only have themselves to blame.
However if anyone selling an item suspects that the item may have a fault or some abnormal issue they should make that known in the sale listing.
Similarly, if anyone feels they have a problem with something they have bought they should make it known immediately.
 
lodious said:
I probably won't make many friends for saying this, but in my view, playing £510 for a lens you could buy from HDEW for £589 (prob.cheaper from Panamoz) is just far too much. If you think about the risks, of which premature failure of the lens is one of many, including getting outright ripped off, getting a poor copy, condition not as described, AF calibration issues, decentering issues, shipping damage.... I can't think why anybody would pay £510 for a s/h lens when a new one is £590? Why would you do it?

I know it's great that people can move gear on without loosing too much, but you have to asses the risks, and my personal view is that the s/h prices of camera gear are far too high too make any kind of sense.
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Your absolutely correct he would have been far better off to knowingly buy goods and dodge paying tax on them like in the case of Panamoz. :nono:
And hope that they would sort him out if something goes wrong, good luck with that. :D

http://www.photography-forum.org/sh...namoz-com-my-not-so-good-experience-with-them
 
I really don't think starting this thread was a very good idea.

I doubt you were taken for a fool, Eddy, but, as the thread has progressed, it doesn't make you look too clever:shrug:
 
I don't think there is an issue with HDEW and tax is there? There are a number of recorded instances of Panamoz / DR / HDEW standing by their customers when they have problems...so waggle your condescending finder and smirk all you like, I know where I'd rather be if a problem develops.
 
yep - it shows panamoz whining about people saying bad things about them - it doesnt show that the original post wasnt valid
 
Flats said:
As it happens, when I gave feedback to Eddy, I appear to have selected the wrong deal thread - which seems to relate to a flash I sold to somebody else. But I definitely recalled selling something to Eddy, so when I checked my own feedback, there he was, and it was indeed this 24-105 lens. So I came on the thread anyway, even though my name could never have been associated with the sale.

Rgds
Jonathan
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I found the wanted thread that you responded to within a couple of minutes of this one starting just by following the OP's previous postings. ;)
 
Soda Farl said:
Your absolutely correct he would have been far better off to knowingly buy goods and dodge paying tax on them like in the case of Panamoz. :nono:
And hope that they would sort him out if something goes wrong, good luck with that. :D

http://www.photography-forum.org/sh...namoz-com-my-not-so-good-experience-with-them
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Many, many people have nothing but praise for Panamoz's service, linking to one dubious posting does not make the company bad. Try reading real reviews on this very site or even externally at http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews244722.html
 
big soft moose said:
yep - it shows panamoz whining about people saying bad things about them - it doesnt show that the original post wasnt valid
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1 possibly bad review out of how many positive ?
I've read so many positive reviews, I think any high street shop would struggle with this many good reviews.


& with regards to the OP every cloud has a silver lining- the 24-105 has been fixed by canon, in a way adding personal value to you, I guess the repairs got a warranty aswell.

With the 10-22 if you can afford I'd drop it to canon to be looked at. Ok you've paid a hefty price in total for the lens but now you've got a gooden.

If you see it any other way then you'll be sour.
 
and how many negative - that isnt the only one

however this thread isnt about whether panamoz are good or bad - the basic point was the buying grey isnt the perfect solution either. but you pays your money and take your choice one a sliding scale of security vs cost from a bricks and mortar shop, down to buying it from dodgy dave down the dog n duck
 
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brad28 said:
the 24-105 has been fixed by canon, in a way adding personal value to you, I guess the repairs got a warranty aswell.
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Yeah, and look at it this way OP; the price you paid for the lens and the servicing is still less than the lowest UK price brand new, and you have the benefit of knowing your lens has had a recent service by Canon to make sure everything is ship shape - basically as good as new ;)
 
Mikesphotaes said:
I really don't think starting this thread was a very good idea.

I doubt you were taken for a fool, Eddy, but, as the thread has progressed, it doesn't make you look too clever:shrug:
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Thank you for pointing that out.

Nifkin said:
Yeah, and look at it this way OP; the price you paid for the lens and the servicing is still less than the lowest UK price brand new, and you have the benefit of knowing your lens has had a recent service by Canon to make sure everything is ship shape - basically as good as new ;)
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Yeah, this is the logic I've been going by :) Fixation did an excellent job and a lot of the lens internals are now brand-new! The way I see it, I have a nice new lens. :thumbs:
 
Eddzz!! said:
Thank you for pointing that out.



Yeah, this is the logic I've been going by :) Fixation did an excellent job and a lot of the lens internals are now brand-new! The way I see it, I have a nice new lens. :thumbs:
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All's well that ends well;)
 
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