Wedding first dance, dark! Advice needed...

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_MikeyB

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Michael
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Afternoon!

I shot my third wedding yesterday and boy was it a challenge. The light was non existent throughout the day as everything was mainly indoors in a very dark room.

I managed to shoot everything ok, but I really struggled when it came to the first dance as the room was close to pitch black and I couldn't hit focus.

I basically had to use manual focus, around F7.1 with a flash gun and hope I got a decent shot... (very amature, but I didn't know what to do).

Can anyone offer me any advice as to what I can do in the future?

My kit is a 5D MKii, 24-70 F2.8, 70-200 MKii F2.8, 85 F1.2, 100 L Macro F2.8, 430 EXii

Thanks in advance!
 
You certainly seem to have all the right kit, i'm at odds as to why you shot at f7 with the flash ?
 
What should I have shot at?

I tried most F-stops, but I just wanted something in focus so thought the higher number F-Stop the greater chance something would be...
 
i read some really usefull advice about focussing in awkward situations like this. pre focus on something at a set distance and stay roughly that distance from your subject, ie B+G. using flash and a smallish aperture should give you enough depth of field that you can move around the subject and be pretty certain of achieving sharp focus.
 
_MikeyB said:
What should I have shot at?

I tried most F-stops, but I just wanted something in focus so thought the higher number F-Stop the greater chance something would be...
Click to expand...

I would have thought 2.8 as you had the capability on your lenses, then up the ISO.
 
try reading through this blog ;)

http://www.melissajill.com/blog.cfm?postID=956&flash-series-pt-the-basics

it's helped me get to grips with flash, i always prefered to go with the wide aperture and bump the iso high method. now i've started to incorporate flash, still using a wider aperture and highish iso(circa 800) to retain the ambient light and having a stop or two of negative compensation dialled in on the flash. i'll post a shot from the weekend in a minute to show how it worked for me
 
lexie said:
i read some really usefull advice about focussing in awkward situations like this. pre focus on something at a set distance and stay roughly that distance from your subject, ie B+G. using flash and a smallish aperture should give you enough depth of field that you can move around the subject and be pretty certain of achieving sharp focus.
Click to expand...

Thanks Keith - I did try that, but it wasn't that reliable - maybe I was doing something wrong.

TG. said:
I would have thought 2.8 as you had the capability on your lenses, then up the ISO.
Click to expand...

Thanks Tel - I left the ISO on auto - I've checked the photos and they're at ISO 400 but I guess that's because I was shooting in manual firing the flash?

lexie said:
try reading through this blog ;)

http://www.melissajill.com/blog.cfm?postID=956&flash-series-pt-the-basics
Click to expand...

I'll get reading now...

Thanks!
 
lexie said:
try reading through this blog ;)

http://www.melissajill.com/blog.cfm?postID=956&flash-series-pt-the-basics

it's helped me get to grips with flash, i always prefered to go with the wide aperture and bump the iso high method. now i've started to incorporate flash, still using a wider aperture and highish iso(circa 800) to retain the ambient light and having a stop or two of negative compensation dialled in on the flash. i'll post a shot from the weekend in a minute to show how it worked for me
Click to expand...

That is a really brilliant blog - the whole series is great. I can't wait to get a flashgun, now!
 
lexie said:
i'll post a shot from the weekend in a minute to show how it worked for me
Click to expand...

I look forward to seeing your results too (y)
 
TG. said:
I would have thought 2.8 as you had the capability on your lenses, then up the ISO.
Click to expand...

that's good if you're shooting with ambient light but not necessary with flash and i wouldnt shoot a first dance at f2.8 as the plane of focus is too thin, the main advantage of f2.8 glass in low light situations in the light gathering capability of the lens for preshot focussing

I would have thought that 2 flash guns with bounce heads - and get either your assistant if you have one (or uncle bob if not as it'll make him feel important and keep him the hell out of the way) to hold the slave at right angles to the shot as main light while your's shoots to fill head on

another option is to ask the DJ or whoever is running the event/disco lights if you can get a follow spot(light) on the B&G - if you go that route you need to alow for the differing WB
 
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off camera flash x2 or x3... you need to consider lighting

The issue with relying on high iso is that a craply lit scene, is still craply lit even if apparently yet exposed nearly properly
 
If you just want to work in ambient light set the flash to af assist light only that way the flash won't discharge but will only project the infrared beam so that you can attain focus.
 
I'm surprised you struggled with focussing - with a flash on board you get the AF assist lamp so you should get focus.

I use quite a similar setup (but with a 580ex II (on camera) and 1 or 2 x 430ex II off-camera) and usually get 60-70% in focus even in really dark conditions.
 
try bouncing the flash off the walls instead of directly at the subject

this was done with my sigma flash and it was absolutely pitch black apart from the DJ lights

6137251151_bc87d45854.jpg
 
I'm usually OK with focus as long as it's not so dark that I simply can't see the distance scale on the lens. A an illuminated scale would be handy sometimes!
 
boliston said:
I'm usually OK with focus as long as it's not so dark that I simply can't see the distance scale on the lens. A an illuminated scale would be handy sometimes!
Click to expand...

I keep one of those little one AAA mag lights in my camera bag, with a bit of velcro wrapped round it - the other half of the velcro is stuck on the side of the side of my flash gun

which means if i need to i can stick the maglight on the side of the gun angled down to illuminate the lens rings - or i can stick it to my watch band to use to navigate about in the dark
 
sorry for the delay in getting a pic up, i was busy most of the day and was only one using my phone.

here's a pic from the dance floor just after the first dance.



without flash my settings were f/2, 1/200, iso 3200. using flash i had dialled in a stop or so of negative compensation and dropped the iso to 800 and let the ettl do the rest.
 
The problem with flash during the first dance is that unless you light the whole room with it, you'll lose the congregation or any sense of atmosphere. Most venues I find light enough to be able to shoot without flash. I don't agree that f2.8 is too narrow to be usable. How close are you shooting the b&g? Most of my first dance photos are full length or head to waist length. I regularly find myself shooting at f2 or even f1.4 at ISO8000. Plenty of DoF at those sorts of distances. Yes the focussing hit rate is a lower than usual, but I get enough keepers. Also I think the D700 is better in low light at AF than the 5D2, so I've read.

In short, wack up the ISO and get a 35/1.4 or 50/1.4 and shoot at f1.4-f2. You may find you don't need flash after all.
 
chrisgeary said:
The problem with flash during the first dance is that unless you light the whole room with it, you'll lose the congregation or any sense of atmosphere. Most venues I find light enough to be able to shoot without flash. I don't agree that f2.8 is too narrow to be usable. How close are you shooting the b&g? Most of my first dance photos are full length or head to waist length. I regularly find myself shooting at f2 or even f1.4 at ISO8000. Plenty of DoF at those sorts of distances. Yes the focussing hit rate is a lower than usual, but I get enough keepers. Also I think the D700 is better in low light at AF than the 5D2, so I've read.

In short, wack up the ISO and get a 35/1.4 or 50/1.4 and shoot at f1.4-f2. You may find you don't need flash after all.
Click to expand...

do you mean ISO800 or 8000?

my 5dmk1 only goes to 3200 lol
 
lexie said:
try reading through this blog ;)

http://www.melissajill.com/blog.cfm?postID=956&flash-series-pt-the-basics

it's helped me get to grips with flash, i always prefered to go with the wide aperture and bump the iso high method. now i've started to incorporate flash, still using a wider aperture and highish iso(circa 800) to retain the ambient light and having a stop or two of negative compensation dialled in on the flash. i'll post a shot from the weekend in a minute to show how it worked for me
Click to expand...

Brilliant read this - it's going to solve my problem about focusing 100%.

My problem has never been the ISO or shutter speed, but nailing the focus.

This will cure it:

http://www.melissajill.com/blog.cfm?postID=988&flash-series-pt-low-light-focus-trick

along with the this.

http://www.melissajill.com/blog.cfm?postID=690&f-a-q-back-button-focusing
 
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The blog series you've linked to is certainly useful. There is another simple option, which is what we always do in dark venues (not weddings, as we rarely shoot those).

Add some continuous light so the camera can focus... Simple LED video lights can be had for £25, put one (or more if you need to) on a bracket on the camera, and they should add enough light to get your AF to work. Often you only need to flash it on briefly to get AF lock. If they are daylight balanced video lights (or near enough, as most LEDs are) then they won't affect the colours in your image. Remember though if you are gelling your flash to match ambient in a slow shutter speed shot you may get enough light from the daylight LED in to colour a portion of the image, so it needs to go off or be gelled too...
 
Another option i have used with success is to set your flash to manual perhaps 1/8th the use the camera in manual and run it at 1/60th and set iso to perhaps 800, you will bee able to fire the flash quickly which if the camera is in continuous focus it amazingly has time to latch onto the subject - bit like the awful canon pre focus flash, and keep shooting :)
 
chrisgeary said:
The problem with flash during the first dance is that unless you light the whole room with it, you'll lose the congregation or any sense of atmosphere. Most venues I find light enough to be able to shoot without flash. I don't agree that f2.8 is too narrow to be usable. How close are you shooting the b&g? Most of my first dance photos are full length or head to waist length. I regularly find myself shooting at f2 or even f1.4 at ISO8000. Plenty of DoF at those sorts of distances. Yes the focussing hit rate is a lower than usual, but I get enough keepers. Also I think the D700 is better in low light at AF than the 5D2, so I've read.

In short, wack up the ISO and get a 35/1.4 or 50/1.4 and shoot at f1.4-f2. You may find you don't need flash after all.
Click to expand...

This.
 
chrisgeary said:
The problem with flash during the first dance is that unless you light the whole room with it, you'll lose the congregation or any sense of atmosphere. Most venues I find light enough to be able to shoot without flash. I don't agree that f2.8 is too narrow to be usable. How close are you shooting the b&g? Most of my first dance photos are full length or head to waist length. I regularly find myself shooting at f2 or even f1.4 at ISO8000. Plenty of DoF at those sorts of distances. Yes the focussing hit rate is a lower than usual, but I get enough keepers. Also I think the D700 is better in low light at AF than the 5D2, so I've read.

In short, wack up the ISO and get a 35/1.4 or 50/1.4 and shoot at f1.4-f2. You may find you don't need flash after all.
Click to expand...

This is about balance and TBH, there are no right answers, and it will be very dependant on the circumstances on the night and the gear you do or dont have...

On the one hand you say "unless you flash the whole room, you loose the congregation"
On the other hand, you suggest
"Whack up the ISO and shoot at 1.4"
which are both supposedly used to counter
"Just lighting the B&G"

In reality - just lighting the B&G and shooting at 1.4 may produce a fairly similar result in terms of the congregation - at 1.4 they are out of focus, if you just lit the B&G, the congregation might be underlit, but in focus

Here are the choices

- light the whole room - enables a nice clean shot of everything at a nice low ISO
- use creative flash - you can light what you want where you want, isolating whatever you want, at any ISO you want
- light just the bride - lets you get a clean shot of the B&G
- light nothing, and shoot at ISO8000 - commit yourself to a possibly noisy image and a shallow DOF

In reality, you can choose the lighting setup you want, shoot with it for 1/2 the first dance, and then go to the high ISO option for the end of the dance
 
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chrisgeary said:
The problem with flash during the first dance is that unless you light the whole room with it, you'll lose the congregation or any sense of atmosphere. Most venues I find light enough to be able to shoot without flash. I don't agree that f2.8 is too narrow to be usable. How close are you shooting the b&g? Most of my first dance photos are full length or head to waist length. I regularly find myself shooting at f2 or even f1.4 at ISO8000. Plenty of DoF at those sorts of distances. Yes the focussing hit rate is a lower than usual, but I get enough keepers. Also I think the D700 is better in low light at AF than the 5D2, so I've read.

In short, wack up the ISO and get a 35/1.4 or 50/1.4 and shoot at f1.4-f2. You may find you don't need flash after all.
Click to expand...

This.

Or as an alternative use the lack of light in you favour

HM2_0404-Edit.jpg
 
Thanks to everyone who has replied so far - you've given me so very usable advice and I'll be trying a few things out at my next wedding in November.

I'll keep this thread up to date with my results.
 
Richard King said:
This is about balance and TBH, there are no right answers, and it will be very dependant on the circumstances on the night and the gear you do or dont have...

On the one hand you say "unless you flash the whole room, you loose the congregation"
On the other hand, you suggest
"Whack up the ISO and shoot at 1.4"
which are both supposedly used to counter
"Just lighting the B&G"

In reality - just lighting the B&G and shooting at 1.4 may produce a fairly similar result in terms of the congregation - at 1.4 they are out of focus, if you just lit the B&G, the congregation might be underlit, but in focus

Here are the choices

- light the whole room - enables a nice clean shot of everything at a nice low ISO
- use creative flash - you can light what you want where you want, isolating whatever you want, at any ISO you want
- light just the bride - lets you get a clean shot of the B&G
- light nothing, and shoot at ISO8000 - commit yourself to a possibly noisy image and a shallow DOF

In reality, you can choose the lighting setup you want, shoot with it for 1/2 the first dance, and then go to the high ISO option for the end of the dance
Click to expand...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I'm with this. Do all of the above. Take the shot...then take it again, a bit different. You'll have three of four minutes for the first dance (unless the couple have a row :p), so plan a number of different settings.
 
_MikeyB said:
Thanks to everyone who has replied so far - you've given me so very usable advice and I'll be trying a few things out at my next wedding in November.

I'll keep this thread up to date with my results.
Click to expand...

Look forward to seeing some of your photos!
 
I read a few very helpful suggestions for focusing on this awkward situation. Focus on something at a distance and keep the distance from the subject, B + G. Using a flash and a small aperture should provide enough depth of field to allow you to move around the subject and get a sharp focus with great certainty.
 
Is the camera set to Auto FP if not then might as well put the camera in manual at about f5.6, 1/250 and use that as the fundamental starting light level and then alter the amount of ambient you pick up on top of what the flash offers up
 
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