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Wedding photography
- Thread starter dkh
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Take good photos, make couples happy, earn a bit of money along the way.
Why over complicate it?
QFA
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- Richard King
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- Phil
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You don't understand - Only You have this question - we're not questioning what we do or what we call it. Only You in the entire world care about this - otherwise we'd have a good healthy debate where lots of like minded individuals sparred with erudition. Not just some peurile "I am a little mole, coming out of my little molehil"
None of us lie awake at night wondering whether our last wedding was more documentary than reportage or a bit more photojournalist
I personally care that I haven't secured the last bride I met - but I'm sure it's because I didn't take the opportunity to close the deal when I had the chance, rather than the use of the word 'reportage' on p1 of my website - Am I wrong?
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Some of those images are definitely posed - now what to do - WPJA* don't like it if 'documentary' photographers pretend to be 'photojournalists'
? We'll have to decline their 'invite' now.*Nobody else gives a toss though
OP
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I will respond to the questions when I get time, I'm not trolling. Just wondering why professionals setup successful businesses not understanding what type of photography they offer or worse, not caring.
Sorry if it is of little meaning or consequence to you people.
Sorry if it is of little meaning or consequence to you people.
Radiohead
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Sanctimonious, ill-informed, first-year student level drivel. Again.
We understand and we care. Our clients understand and they care. That's how we are able to run successful businesses. Try and work out how cause and effect work.
What you're struggling with is that 'studying' these terms at university counts for nothing here. What does count is the strength of your work when you pontificate from on high.
For some reason you have a misplaced superiority complex. It's often the case with those inexperienced and new to the profession.
We understand and we care. Our clients understand and they care. That's how we are able to run successful businesses. Try and work out how cause and effect work.
What you're struggling with is that 'studying' these terms at university counts for nothing here. What does count is the strength of your work when you pontificate from on high.
For some reason you have a misplaced superiority complex. It's often the case with those inexperienced and new to the profession.
OP
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I don't think people on forums like to discuss things like this for some reason. I am not a judge nor am I worried about personal attacks about personality or character - it just shows a level of insecurity on the part of the attacker.
What I wanted to discuss is why people feel the need to label themselves, is it a trend - at the expense of not even knowing what the label means. If you look at any other profession, nobody has this need. Instead they're concentrating on what the client wants and, what this thread has made crystal clear is that clients don't understand this 'drivel' (as has been so eloquently pointed out to me).
For those who feel offended - get over it. Like I said, I am a junior here by way of experience / number of weddings etc etc.
Are you going to take on board the advice given to you by your senior peers then?
Are you going to remove the 'documentary' part from you services?
Are you going to ask you uni
A posed shot is a document of the day, all day long wedding guests are posing for photographs.
OP
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180 weddings is by your standards a junior without quoting your exact words.
Why would I remove documentary if it is something I studied for 6 years?
Me and my lecturer discuss this all the time and I was told of what to expect as a response. Oh well.
Radiohead
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Not at all. You said that your experience was 180 weddings. Yet on your site I count, at best, 4. I'd expect a body of work far greater than yours.
So have many weddings have you actually photographed?
You think that studying something is the key here? I studied Law for 5 years. I'm not a lawyer.
You are actually criticising people here for using a label that you yourself use, yet you think that studying it gives you the right, and no-one else. You use the term when it's what you do, not because of some tenuous connection to a course.
Your lecturer probably would say that - it's typical of those stuck in Academia.
I'll give you this - your replies are the best laugh I've had so far this week.
OP
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Funny, I thought the gallery alone had 11 different weddings?
You think that studying something is the key here? I studied Law for 5 years. I'm not a lawyer.
You are actually criticising people here for using a label that you yourself use, yet you think that studying it gives you the right, and no-one else. You use the term when it's what you do, not because of some tenuous connection to a course.
Your lecturer probably would say that - it's typical of those stuck in Academia.
I'll give you this - your replies are the best laugh I've had so far this week.
I am not criticising, I am asking why you use the label. big difference. I didn't patent the terms.
You studied law so you should understand what I'm saying. Bloody hell - it's like I'm tearing you apart or something! First the personality and character onslaught, then the amazing arithmetics.
Just to clear up any confusion. I studied, then worked for three years with a photographer doing all things an apprentice does. Then I worked with wedding photographers for a further three years and am now freelancing. I didn't go to weddings every weekend and no I don't use any of the photography that was part of my working as an apprentice or as an assistant and I haven't used most of my second shooter work to keep the main, paid photographers happy. What is on my website is my paid wedding work 2011 / 2012.
So, apologies for asking such trivial questions.
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Brilliant. Best wedding popcorn thread for an age.
Radiohead
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Well it's your gallery, so you should know.
And I've told you. More than once. You are determined to apply simplistic classroom definitions to something, not me. Everyone else seems clear on the terms. I do understand your determination to apply misguided intellectual superiority to the semantics though. And it is semantics, despite what your lecturer might think. It has NO bearing on running a business.
You might not have patented them, but you are claiming some bizarre right over how they're applied by others.
Yet you use them yourself.......
You don't see any conflict here?
Make it clear at the outset then. If I say my experience is 180 weddings I'd expect to have shot 180 weddings as primary or solo. You said it to try and claim something you're not. You should know that assisting and second-shooting is very different from primary or solo.
OP
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Semantics.
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This is hilarious - I think it needs a breakdown...
^Is your line in welcoming first impressions? I think most people would see that as an attack, and given Guy's standing and reputation - it'd be easy to suggest it was from a position of insecurity Thats the difference between knowing something and understanding it?
See my earlier post about labelling - this isn't about some abstract concept of art - this is marketing - and if you want to know whether the typical wedding customer would see it as 'drivel' try explaining it at your next client meeting.
You really have had your head buried deep somewhere if you can't find any more misleading marketing than the difference between a reportage or documentary wedding photographer. - I cited a couple of obvious examples earlier.
Offended isn't what I feel - puzzled, bewildered, surprised, annoyed - but probably not for the reasons you'd have wanted. I just can't understand why a seemingly intelligent human being would introduce themselves into a new community by growling and p155ing on all the lamp-posts. It's an odd strategy for making friends:shrug:
People are happy to discuss this, maybe you should try to objectively read your posts, they're deliberately antagonistic and have been taken as such. People are made unhappy when others attack them. I'm guessing you went to the Dave Cameron debating school.
You are not a judge? Yet you have appeared here very judgemental - Insecurity on the part of the attacker - See if I can find an example...
^Is your line in welcoming first impressions? I think most people would see that as an attack, and given Guy's standing and reputation - it'd be easy to suggest it was from a position of insecurity
Thats the difference between knowing something and understanding it? See my earlier post about labelling - this isn't about some abstract concept of art - this is marketing - and if you want to know whether the typical wedding customer would see it as 'drivel' try explaining it at your next client meeting.
You really have had your head buried deep somewhere if you can't find any more misleading marketing than the difference between a reportage or documentary wedding photographer. - I cited a couple of obvious examples earlier.
Offended isn't what I feel - puzzled, bewildered, surprised, annoyed - but probably not for the reasons you'd have wanted. I just can't understand why a seemingly intelligent human being would introduce themselves into a new community by growling and p155ing on all the lamp-posts. It's an odd strategy for making friends:shrug:
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Can I throw my 2p worth in?
I teach Photography and Film and TV Production to A2 Level. On both courses I deliver units on 'Documentary'; for Photography we look at reportage, street, and photojournalism. For Film and TV we look at Factual Programming for Television. On both courses we explore different modes of documentary and we always arrive at similar conclusions, that Documentary is a 'cover all' term that those outside of our classroom walls understand; everything we discuss within the classroom is simply a sub-genre of documentary and the differences between them can be so subtle that trying to convey them to Joe Public would take days and would be so mind numbingly dull.
I also shoot weddings; I am not in the same league as a number of inspiring folk on here, but my clients like the work I produce and I have turned down more weddings in the last year than I have shot. On my website I use the term reportage to describe a style of shooting; it is not the only style I follow but it is part of my repertoire. My clients understand the term as they read the wedding photography press (as do I) but - most importantly - they book me because they like me and they like my pictures. I am certain that if I tried to engage them in a debate about whether my work was reportage or documentary then they wouldn't like me as much.
Not sure what this adds but I felt compelled to join in.
Spooks
I teach Photography and Film and TV Production to A2 Level. On both courses I deliver units on 'Documentary'; for Photography we look at reportage, street, and photojournalism. For Film and TV we look at Factual Programming for Television. On both courses we explore different modes of documentary and we always arrive at similar conclusions, that Documentary is a 'cover all' term that those outside of our classroom walls understand; everything we discuss within the classroom is simply a sub-genre of documentary and the differences between them can be so subtle that trying to convey them to Joe Public would take days and would be so mind numbingly dull.
I also shoot weddings; I am not in the same league as a number of inspiring folk on here, but my clients like the work I produce and I have turned down more weddings in the last year than I have shot. On my website I use the term reportage to describe a style of shooting; it is not the only style I follow but it is part of my repertoire. My clients understand the term as they read the wedding photography press (as do I) but - most importantly - they book me because they like me and they like my pictures. I am certain that if I tried to engage them in a debate about whether my work was reportage or documentary then they wouldn't like me as much.
Not sure what this adds but I felt compelled to join in.
Spooks
OP
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This is hilarious - I think it needs a breakdown...
People are happy to discuss this, maybe you should try to objectively read your posts, they're deliberately antagonistic and have been taken as such. People are made unhappy when others attack them. I'm guessing you went to the Dave Cameron debating school.
You are not a judge? Yet you have appeared here very judgemental - Insecurity on the part of the attacker - See if I can find an example...
^Is your line in welcoming first impressions? I think most people would see that as an attack, and given Guy's standing and reputation - it'd be easy to suggest it was from a position of insecurity
See my earlier post about labelling - this isn't about some abstract concept of art - this is marketing - and if you want to know whether the typical wedding customer would see it as 'drivel' try explaining it at your next client meeting.
You really have had your head buried deep somewhere if you can't find any more misleading marketing than the difference between a reportage or documentary wedding photographer. - I cited a couple of obvious examples earlier.
Offended isn't what I feel - puzzled, bewildered, surprised, annoyed - but probably not for the reasons you'd have wanted. I just can't understand why a seemingly intelligent human being would introduce themselves into a new community by growling and p155ing on all the lamp-posts. It's an odd strategy for making friends:shrug:
I have given my opinion, about my understanding, not attacked or been judgmental. There is a difference, to me, about opinion and being judgmental.
Academics aside, I am not ****ing on anyone's post.
I also explained that my main reason for this was that 'the terms' were very popular at the moment and were being jumped on by people not even having a clue on what they meant bla bla bla. I did not infer that anyone putting their opinions on this post had better / same or less of a clue than me - I clearly stated every time that what I was saying was my opinion.
I should also add that education or academia has nothing to do with ability or success in the field of art - I agree with statement that in the real world it's the images that do the talking. (Aside from the fact that if you have personality, the imagery is secondary)
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Tigger.ufo
Lady Penelope
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You fail to understand that many of us that do use these terms do understand the meaning, and do shoot in that way style or philosophy.
You need to also understand that being right, over something so stupid, won't pay the bills. Get out there. Carve your own niche. Get recognised for it, and your customers will find you, regardless of what you call yourself
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Dilip. This thread is already showing up on page 2 of google (for me) when searching for 'dkh photography'.
Some thought of how you conduct yourself on the internet may be needed as this doesn't look great from a prospective clients point of view.
Some thought of how you conduct yourself on the internet may be needed as this doesn't look great from a prospective clients point of view.
OP
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Thanks David. It's reassuring.
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This is utter tosh - and just argumentative now:
You didn't just give 'your opinion'; you came back and told everyone why what you were saying was 'right', because that's how it's 'taught' by your professor. Who is 'right'. You told people they were wrong (I posted links). That's a bit more than 'expressing an opinion'. And still telling us we 'don't have a clue what we're talking about' whilst trying to defend yourself
I never accused you of ****ing on anyone's post - I used the term 'p155ing on lamp-posts' it's a term in common use for marking out your territory, I apologise if my use of English is a little 'real world' rather than 'academia'.
And the most important part here - people will book you for your images, and your personality - the kind of person who crashes into a forum in this way is going to have to hide an awful lot of their own personality in order to come across as approachable and friendly to potential customers.
I really hope you learn from this and hang around, we could do with more wedding photographers who care and will contribute. But I'm a bit of a naive optimist at times.
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Slayer of nonsense is WAY better.
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I'm after Richard's thread killer title.
Thats mine
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and that
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Dillip
Don't take this the wrong way. There are a lot of good people here. Good solid professional wedding photographers. We are in the business of selling and delivering exceptional wedding photography. We have all been round the block a few times. Many have shot film, and still shoot the odd roll of film. In the main we all shoot digital. There are a few old school guys that shoot traditional brilliantly. There are a few old school guys that shoot traditional and more candid. There are a lot of newer photographers that lean towards the candid. Many have failed and regrouped, some have just shone.
I can't speak for the others, but I have been shooting photographs for money for over half my life, which is more than 20 years. I really don't care if the next chap shoots standing on his head and whistles god bless America.
Some of us have formal training. some of us are self taught, some of us are teachers. We are a right old mix. I like all the other guys (and girls) round here respect great photography and imagery.
I spend a great deal of time working with artists (the paint and pencil type) They respect me, I respect them.. Thats the way the world goes round
Commercially, to win, to float, to be doing this in a few years to come, you need to be better then the dross, the chancers, the fly-by-night cowboys. On top of that, you need to be good at marketing, at understanding clients,
what you have really shown is that you are not a bad photographer, but you come with a lot of baggage, that is really going to get in the way of you making a good income
Clients don't want a academic, they don't want theory, they are much more mercenary - they just want great photography, delivered how they want, at the price they want without any layers of ********
The internet is a great leveller, the world is your oyster - but it is everyone else's too. Business is bossiness, and you either get it or you don't. Don't whine like a child because you feel someone is misrepresenting what you are passionate about - that will just turn clients off. Instead, just go and do it better, and drop the crap.
Don't take this the wrong way. There are a lot of good people here. Good solid professional wedding photographers. We are in the business of selling and delivering exceptional wedding photography. We have all been round the block a few times. Many have shot film, and still shoot the odd roll of film. In the main we all shoot digital. There are a few old school guys that shoot traditional brilliantly. There are a few old school guys that shoot traditional and more candid. There are a lot of newer photographers that lean towards the candid. Many have failed and regrouped, some have just shone.
I can't speak for the others, but I have been shooting photographs for money for over half my life, which is more than 20 years. I really don't care if the next chap shoots standing on his head and whistles god bless America.
Some of us have formal training. some of us are self taught, some of us are teachers. We are a right old mix. I like all the other guys (and girls) round here respect great photography and imagery.
I spend a great deal of time working with artists (the paint and pencil type) They respect me, I respect them.. Thats the way the world goes round
Commercially, to win, to float, to be doing this in a few years to come, you need to be better then the dross, the chancers, the fly-by-night cowboys. On top of that, you need to be good at marketing, at understanding clients,
what you have really shown is that you are not a bad photographer, but you come with a lot of baggage, that is really going to get in the way of you making a good income
Clients don't want a academic, they don't want theory, they are much more mercenary - they just want great photography, delivered how they want, at the price they want without any layers of ********
The internet is a great leveller, the world is your oyster - but it is everyone else's too. Business is bossiness, and you either get it or you don't. Don't whine like a child because you feel someone is misrepresenting what you are passionate about - that will just turn clients off. Instead, just go and do it better, and drop the crap.