Wedding Pics - a cautionary tale!

Radiohead said:
Now you're calling us criminal. Where do you get off with a comment like that?

It's nothing to do with ganging up. It's replying to someone with an axe to grind in the seemingly unending digs at the pros that use this forum. And frankly I'm sick of it.
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Well maybe us amateurs, etc who do not understand are sick of the digs too.

I didn't mean to call you criminal, it was a term or expression. All i meant was that the way you all seem to gang up at once seems as some pros have something to hide, etc.

It is clear i do not understand how wedding photography works, the costs, outlay, etc.

Yet instead of someone explaining nicely all the effort, etc it takes, you all jump on the defensive.
 
You attack our pricing as unjustifiable despite knowing nothing about it and expect people to 'explain it nicely'? Seriously?

I don't recall many attacks on amateurs here by pros.
 
Fair point Crow, let's all remember, we were all amateurs once, right? And as such, most have no ideas about the costs of running a business. I think the reason this causes such a sharp response is that, if there are others like me, as a pro, it can get a bit sickening sometimes, especially in the digital age, when people ask you to justify how much you charge in this way (I was recently asked by my mother to quote one of her friends for a family portrait, as she had contacted several large studios in our area and Glasgow. I offered her a shoot with prints and canvas (her request) for a bloody stupid price (well, she is my mum's friend, right? And I know it would be much less than she'd been quoted by the other studios). Her reply was a tyrant of abuse, saying that she thought I'd give her a good price as she knew my mother (truth be told, I'd have barely covered the cost of the canvases and prints) She then informed me that she could buy her own digital camera from Asda for less than £100 and she could take as many photos on it as she wanted! I point blank refuse to get into any debate about why I charge what I do, so I wished her luck with her digital compact and informed my mother (in the nicest way possible) that under no circustances is she to ever refer anyone to me again.
As I mentioned earlier, I do not do a lot of weddings, but the stress alone is worth more than most people charge.
 
Radiohead said:
You attack our pricing as unjustifiable despite knowing nothing about it and expect people to 'explain it nicely'? Seriously?

I don't recall many attacks on amateurs here by pros.
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Yeah i attacked it as unjustifiable, but that is my OPINION. If things were explained clearer then opinions can be changed. I'm only trying to explain what i feel, which i feel is shared by many other people who also do not understand, like the people who go with poor photographer becuase they are cheep, etc.

People say Designer clothes, Expensive cars, etc are unjustifiably expensive. Doesn't mean that the cheep versions are rubbish. I feel the same applies to photography. Just the same as there is the argument about photography equipment time after time.

And as for attacks from pros, everytime a wedding thread comes up there is always arguments instead of calm discussions, but from my reading most of the hostility comes from the pros.

I dont want to get into a fight or anything, or have a slanging match in an open forum. I'm just trying to portray my opinion, which by some of the usefull replies has been changed a little now.
 
TheCrow said:
Yeah i attacked it as unjustifiable, but that is my OPINION. If things were explained clearer then opinions can be changed. I'm only trying to explain what i feel, which i feel is shared by many other people who also do not understand, like the people who go with poor photographer becuase they are cheep, etc.
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Yet it's an opinion based on a complete lack of awareness as to how prices are arrived at. The point above which comments on you charging £10 for a print is an interesting one and one you'd do well to respond to. You seem to think that making a profit is ok for you, but not someone else. How can YOU justify £10 for that print?

TheCrow said:
People say Designer clothes, Expensive cars, etc are unjustifiably expensive. Doesn't mean that the cheep versions are rubbish. I feel the same applies to photography. Just the same as there is the argument about photography equipment time after time.
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Usually, cheaper means poorer. Buy cheap, buy twice. It's a good enough rule of thumb (law of diminishing returns notwithstanding). With photography it's easy - you have a subjective ability to compare the work and prices of 2 photographers and decide whether they're worth it. Simple. But if you think that successful wedding photography is ONLY about photography you should reconsider that point of view.

TheCrow said:
And as for attacks from pros, everytime a wedding thread comes up there is always arguments instead of calm discussions, but from my reading most of the hostility comes from the pros.
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Why do you think that is? For some odd reason wedding pros are deemed fair game here. That we should be working for free and charging peanuts for 14 hour days and all of the pre and post work.

Who are the photographers making serious money? It's not us - go and tell the advertising and fashion boys pulling in £600k+ per annum they're over-priced.

TheCrow said:
I dont want to get into a fight or anything, or have a slanging match in an open forum. I'm just trying to portray my opinion, which by some of the usefull replies has been changed a little now.
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Then can I respectfully suggest that you table your questions in less accusatory, perjorative manner and avoid slinging around comments like 'criminal'.
 
I think the prices wedding togs charge is perfectly reasonable. There is a lot of work that they do that the paying public do not see.

Maybe one of the Pro's could give us a step by step breakdown of what goes into one wedding. I would be interested to see the whole process.
 
Dave Stone said:
Maybe one of the Pro's could give us a step by step breakdown of what goes into one wedding. I would be interested to see the whole process.
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Not a bad idea - but there's much more to the 'business' of wedding photography than just the workflow from answering the first phone call/email to handing over the album and saying - 'See you for your kids' portraits'

And I think it's all the ancillary work of the business that most don't understand, or appreciate how much time effort & money goes into it

As far as I am aware, there's no 'book' you can buy on such, and to fully explain would need to involve writing one (or a wedding photography business training one, which I'm considering, more later ;))

DD
 
Don`t you just love wedding threads........:lol:
 
TheCrow said:
It is clear i do not understand how wedding photography works, the costs, outlay, etc.

Yet instead of someone explaining nicely all the effort, etc it takes, you all jump on the defensive.
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One 1 level, its art. Subjective. You can pay £1 for a vase in poundland or £1,000 for an antique, they will both just sit there at the end of the day. Subjective.

One another leve, Time = Money.

Meeting with the couple = 3 hours
various emails and correspondence until the big day = 1 hour
Prep before the big day = cleaning, gear, organising = 3 hours
1 day wedding shoot = 12 hours
3 to 5 days post processing at 7 hours a day = 21 hours to 45 hours
Time spent editing album + uplaod to printers = 4 hours
Cost of wedding album and prints = material costs £100
Time creating private webpage for client = 7 hours

Total time spent 51 hours (with 3 days spent Post processing)
Disbursements = £100

Charging at £20 per hour (lets face it, that's not a lot when you work about once a week for mostly the summer only) Mechanics gets that much and your plumber charges more per hour or a lot of salary jobs gets that kind of money.

= £1020 + £100 disbursements

Then you have to pay for business expenses

Camera body upgrade every 2 to 3 years
With it - Lenses or flash guns
Camera Insurance
Computer uprgade + Software.

It is not £1,000 a day for a few pictures now is it?
 
snapzz said:
At the end of the day the cars or gone, the church has opened its doors to marry someone else. The beer has been drunk and food eaten. Suites have gone back to the hire shop and the wedding dress is at the cleaners. Where is your value for money? Its with all the memories of the day your wedding album, the one thing you try to do without or on the cheap.
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I got married 30 years ago (still married) and we paid £200 for our wedding album/photographer. We dont regret a penny of it. The memories are kept sharp by the photos we still look at.

Advice: NEVER scrimp on the wedding photos - they are the 'keepers' from the day (other than your new spouse of course :lol:)
 
OK - I'll bite:

I might spend 30-45 minutes on the phone initially. That's usually followed up by a meeting with the couple and that's an evening's work. Then I'll work up the contract and send that out. I'll meet with the couple a month or so before the wedding at the venue to work out where things are happening, what the light is like and so on. That might be an afternoon gone. So, that's over a day's work already.

Then the wedding itself - I'll spend a couple of hours 2 evenings before (not the evening before in case I need to replace anything the next day) sorting my kit out, charging everything up, making sure I have my timings and formal shot list sorted.

The day - most will start around 10am which means an 8.30-9.00 am departure. I'm then working solid until around 9pm and will get home around 10.00-10.30pm.

Then I'll have to backup (chuck another cost in for HDD's here) the files for both on and offsite storage. I'll then start the editing process, and that's typically a day's work. Upload them to online galleries, create the slideshows.

Once that's done the couple will select the album. I'll then have to work up those shots and send them over to Italy for design. That will come back as a proof and might need changes. Once it arrives I'll need to inspect it and then deliver it to the couple. That's another 1/2 day there.

That's the logistics - then add in the £14k of kit I've invested in to deliver quality, website costs, kit, indemnity and liability insurance, car running costs, letterheads, business cards and so on.

So, that's one wedding. Now multiply that by 30-40 per year and achieve a booking stream for the following season.

Still think we're overpriced?
 
Raymond Lin said:
One 1 level, its art. Subjective. You can pay £1 for a vase in poundland or £1,000 for an antique, they will both just sit there at the end of the day. Subjective.

One another leve, Time = Money.

Meeting with the couple = 3 hours
various emails and correspondence until the big day = 1 hour
Prep the day before = cleaning, gear, organising = 3 hours
1 day wedding shoot = 12 hours
3 to 5 days post processing at 7 hours a day = 21 hours to 45 hours
Time spent editing album + uplaod to printers = 4 hours
Cost of wedding album and prints = material costs £100
Time creating private webpage for client = 7 hours

Total time spent 51 hours (with 3 days spent Post processing)
Disbursements = £100

Charging at £20 per hour (lets face it, that's not a lot when you work about once a week for mostly the summer only) Mechnics gets that much and your plumber charges more per hour or a lot of salary jobs gets that kind of money.

= £1020 + £100 disbursements

Then you have to pay for business expenses

Camera body upgrade every 2 to 3 years
With it - Lenses or flash guns
Camera Insurance
Computer uprgade + Software.

It is not £1,000 a day for a few pictures now is it?
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Do you mean Mechanics. I'd be suprised if a mechanic earns as much as that an hour. I think you'll find it's probably less than £15.00

Surely that lot is all tax deductable as would be fuel costs etc. for driving to and from weddings and meeting clients.
 
I'm doing my first wedding in July and there is so much more to it than turning up on the day and taking pics.

Firstly I had to go out and buy a second body (absolutely essential)

Had to travel to meet with the couple and discuss their needs

Visited the church and met with the vicar and also visited the reception location

Will attend the wedding rehearsal at the church

(These locations are in East London and I live in Bedfordshire so not exactly local)

That will be approximately 10-12 hours and we haven't even reached the wedding day yet!

Then, after what will probably be a 12 hour day at the wedding itself, there will be all the processing and album preparation.

I will also have an assistant (In this instance my wife)


Can't remember who came up with the figure of £700, but that is bargain basement as far as I'm concerned.
 
nilagin said:
Do you mean Mechanics. I'd be suprised if a mechanic earns as much as that an hour. I think you'll find it's probably less than £15.00

Surely that lot is all tax deductable as would be fuel costs etc. for driving to and from weddings and meeting clients.
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yes it was a typo.....:shrug:

And your dealer charges only £15.00 an hour ??? i bet most IT professional contractors out there or here charges more than £100 a day (which is 7 hours work = £14.30 an hour)

As for tax deductable.....I haven't even counted the fuel in the £1,000, are you debating against me or supporting my arguement ?
 
fabs said:
Can't remember who came up with the figure of £700, but that is bargain basement as far as I'm concerned.
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Reading back through the 1st reference I found was £700 for a camera this somehow changed to £700 for photos.
 
Raymond Lin said:
yes it was a typo.....:shrug:

And your dealer charges only £15.00 an hour ???

As for tax deductable.....I haven't even counted the fuel in the £1,000, are you debating against me or supporting my arguement ?
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Just questioning peoples comments about factoring in cost of equipment etc. into the cost of a wedding. As the equipment and expenses etc. should all be tax deductable, surely if it's being claimed for in the cost of the photos, the cost is being covered twice.
 
Radiohead said:
It's tax-deductable - not free.
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When I started my apprenticeship I had to pay for my own tools. The cost of which was added to my tax allowance. Therefore I could earn that over my normal tax code before being taxed. Has something changed?
 
Raymond Lin said:
yes it was a typo.....:shrug:

And your dealer charges only £15.00 an hour ???
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No but that will be what the mechanic will get.
I work as a toolmaker. The toolroom quotes around £35.00 per hour for any work, I don't even get half that. Obviously the £35.00 will cover managements salaries etc. too, but basically the rest is profit.
 
nilagin said:
When I started my apprenticeship I had to pay for my own tools. The cost of which was added to my tax allowance. Therefore I could earn that over my normal tax code before being taxed. Has something changed?
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Which meant you had to pay less tax on the income generated by those tools - but you still had to buy the tools. The tax you saved was not equivalent to the cost of the tools.

e.g. Lets use an income of £20K, and tax free allowance of £5K, and a flat tax rate of 25% (all figures plucked out of thin air for illustration only)

Salary 20K
Allowance 5K
Tax to pay = (20 - 5) * .25 = £3.75K
Take home pay = £16.25K

Now lets say in your first year you bought £6K of tools, all of which were tax deductible.

Salary 20K
Allowance 5K
Tools 6K

Tax to pay = (20 - 5 - 6) *.25 = £2.25K
Take home pay = £17.75K

Looks like you're £1.5K better off, but you also have to take away the £6K of tools you just bought.

Because the kit is tax deductible means businesses buy it cheaper, it's not free.
 
There seems to be a bit of simplification going on here. Just because you bought £6k of tax deductible items doesn't mean that you get £6K added on to your tax-free allowance.

For starters, if you're a ltd company not a sole trader then tax allowances have little relation to salary at all.
 
Wedding photography is a business just like any other business and has to be run as a business if the photographer is going to put food on the table on a reasonably regular basis.

The following is a breakdown of my costs of running my business and my base target salary which then gives me my minimum day rate charge.

The figures are based on a 48 worked weeks per annum with 4 chargeable days per week. This leaves 4 weeks per annum for holidays, sickness etc. and one day a week for paperwork, marketing, tax returns, dealing with suppliers etc.

From the above I end up with 192 chargeable days per annum. My operating costs (I work from home) include: equipment replacement, software upgrades, office equipment, computer equipment, telephone (mobile and land line), insurance, car running costs, internet connection, association memberships, CRB checks, equipment servicing, heating, electricity etc. There is also an element for depreciation of capital costs.

My base costs are £59.87 per day for the 192 days per annum. Basically I need to earn £60 per day to cover costs before I pay myself a penny.

The average salary in the UK is £24k. Therefore I need to charge a further £125 per day to earn the same basic average wage as anyone else.

My minimum charge per day is therefore £185.00 per day. You then have to add in a little for sickness, downtime, putting something in the pot for the unexpected expense etc. Even if you just add 15% then the minimum charge is £212.75 and that is to earn exactly what I could earn working for somebody else were I would also get pension benefits, job security, paid leave, paid sickness etc.

A typical wedding is at least half a day of discussion, preparation and equipment preparation. There is then a full day of photography and at least two days of post processing, image selection, dvd creation etc. A typical wedding is usually at least three and a half days work for the photographer and that is without an album.

I need to charge £700 for a DVD only wedding to earn a living. Not to get rich, not to drive a fancy car but just to pay the mortgage and put shoes on the kids feet.

This is the reality of working as a photographer.

John
 
Yes mark, it's over simplified, but as I am a sole trader that's basically what happens. Ignoring VAT implications of course.
 
as an asside I can see where the money goes
I'm a non pro, don't do weddings!
do everything on the cheap,...2000 notes worth of kit, and no liability insurance.
then got paid £150 for a night of events photography...5 hours. great, then another 5 hours editing, sorting etc, putting up galleries. not to mention webspace and setting up the job in the first place....so running down the pay scale now...
£1000 is a lot for a series of photos of the day, but I can see where the money goes...and frankly...you get what you pay for.
 
After reading most of the replies and counter replies on this subject I have one more point to make which I think has been missed.

Firstly I don't have to justify my prices to anyone just the same as other people (pro or am) have to justify to me. I've already mentioned some of the expenses and time spent but the one thing that sets a Professional apart from any idiot with a camera who thinks they can do better is skill!

This is about the pro who spends time and money on learning his trade and reaching for qualifications to prove his worth. Granted some are more creative than others and some are internationally known. The higher up the ladder the higher the fee but the greater the expectation.These are the people who (try) make you look good on your big day. These are the people who "see" objects in the background that need removing. These are the people who instruct you to stand a certain way, a slight move of your hand a tug of your cuff and ensuring the wedding dress is displayed correctly.

Which would you choose a visit your local Sweeney Todd hairdresser and pay £15 for cut and dry or Trevor Sorbie and pay hundreds?
Or is this just another cut throat business :lol::lol::lol:
 
same old faces wading in to browbeat the inquisitive amature who is foolish enough to question the importance or relevance or cost of proffessional wedding pictures but here are some points to remember.

just because an amature takes pictures for a wedding does not make him an idiot nor does it mean that the pictures will be crap.

It is a choice made by the couple, if they decide not to hire a pro then so what, it wont shorten thier lives or make them die a horrible death and they probably know the concequences when making thier choice, get over it, you guys are not compulsory and obviously have an inflated impression of your own importance.

If making a living as a wedding photographer is such a grind then get another job but dont lambast anyone who merely makes reference to the cost of a proffessional service, or shows interest in photographing a friends or relatives wedding...OOOOOH DONT DO IT, THEY WILL HATE YOU AND YOUR WILL KNOB WILL DROP OFF!!!..im sick of hearing it.

Change the record and go whinge on each others shoulders in a forum for Professional wedding photographers and that way you dont have to endure the stupid imbeciles who enjoy photography and have the impertinance to enquire further about your humdrum existances on a general photography forum.
 
It's 'amateur', not amature.

It's 'professional', not proffessional.

And could you have missed the point any more spectacularly? It's nothing to do with whether people want to hire a pro at a given price point, it's to do with the work involved in shooting a wedding.

So, aside from a personal attack on every pro using this forum, have you got anything useful to add to this thread or do you just want to scream like an angry toddler?
 
I can't be arsed reading the whole thread, so I'll wade in with a comment.

Bitching and bickering stops, because quite frankly I'm getting quite ****ed off with it.....from both sides of the fence.

Thanks.
 
Radiohead said:
It's 'amateur', not amature.

It's 'professional', not proffessional.

And could you have missed the point any more spectacularly? It's nothing to do with whether people want to hire a pro at a given price point, it's to do with the work involved in shooting a wedding.

So, aside from a personal attack on every pro using this forum, have you got anything useful to add to this thread or do you just want to scream like an angry toddler?
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grammar nazis :bonk: I feel that wedding photography is now a taboo subject on TP, you would get less crap if you started a new thread anouncing that you were a peadophile..what is it with you guys you all feel a massive need to justify yourselves..you dont have to dude and i wont be so tedious to check your spelling.
 
my spekking?

Go back and read the thread. We were asked how we can justify the prices. So we have. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.....
 
I agree with Graham. I also do not need to justify my prices and my intention by displaying my cost base is to illustrate that wedding photography is not a cost free exercise nor is it turning up with a camera, taking a few hundred snaps and dumping the card to a CD.

My commercial clients pay substantially more than my base rate. They are paying for my technical skills, my creativity and my ability to deliver the required product in the required time-scales and meet or exceed their technical specifications.

My non-commercial clients (weddings etc.) have the same service level expectations and I try to go the extra mile whenever possible.

Yes, you can photograph a mates wedding and pocket a few hundred quid and if your skills are up to it you may get a few more jobs like this but you cannot make a full time living doing this as you will have to (at some point) sort out back up equipment, insurance etc.

Using my own cost base as an example if I photographed one wedding a week (and did no other work) I would need to charge £200 just to cover my costs and that would not include a penny for myself or for a larger wedding a payment for an assistant.

John
 
paulc said:
grammar nazis :bonk: I feel that wedding photography is now a taboo subject on TP, you would get less crap if you started a new thread anouncing that you were a peadophile..what is it with you guys you all feel a massive need to justify yourselves..you dont have to dude and i wont be so tedious to check your spelling.
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Its not about justifying.

Put it simply.

If say a photographer does his wedding for £200.

How many does he need to do to pay for his bills, mortgage, kids, family, food, travel, tax?

For a target of £20k, he'll need to do 100 weddings, that's twice a week, EVERYWEEK. You might be able to get 2 weddings a week in the summer, but I doubt many can book that many a week in the winter. Plus, do you really want to?

Take a regular 9-5 job template, so that's 2 days out of the 5 working day at the wedding, and i can guarantee you that it'll take more than a day and a half to process, and on top of that you have to organise the NEXT one.

It's not about justifying the cost, it's about making a living.
 
There is some really good replies now and people explaining the breakdown etc which make it a lot clearer.

I now think when i used the words unjustified, etc i was being very cynical and not very understanding.

I didn't realise the average uk wage was 24k pa either. Christ i've never earnt over 14k yet alone nearing the 20k mark. Guess i should have gone to university or something afterall.
 
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