wedding trouble.

[Little John]

I took my first wedding on when I only had a D60 and a kit lens. I spent £7k 1 month before and got D700+lenses+flashes etc and shot the wedding for just £200. oh, and I had NO experience, I just did research and jumped in with both feet.

Photos we're ok but for that price they weren't expecting great things, they were very happy with them.

Similar thing with me, I had only just bought my 500D and got asked the question. So did the research and spent a lot of money OK not as much as you but still 2 lenses another flash and a 2nd body extra batteries and memory cards. But it was a lot more than intended spending on photography (I would have bought a 5D if I had known) but the shots were better than anyone else would have got and the couple loved them. There was no way that the couple would have paid anything for a professional wedding photographer so I took the leap and had a go. I also learnt a huge lesson that I didn't enjoy it due to the stress and said that I would never do another.

I have since done one other which I enjoyed same thing a young family friend who had a very small budget got in incredible venue for a knock down price I think the whole wedding cost about £4000 dresses the lot which was less than the other one. Originally there were 3 of us shooting and I slowly got bumped up the pecking order. I learnt a lot and now know that if I get called upon I can actually produce some nice photos, not to the standard of the seasoned pros but I am working on it

Next wedding is next month again a friend who can't afford a photographer, I was going to the wedding anyway and its only 10 people due to costs. I did hear it was a McDonald's wedding breakfast at some point.

As long as the couple are aware your not a pro or even someone known to be able to produce the goods every day or when required and that it may be a little experimental or hit and miss then you can't really go wrong but that is the important bit if they want photos on the lines that Simon Revil or the other great wedding photographers on here produce then they need to be pointed in their direction. There are people out there who cant get photos in focus, who are selling themselves as a wedding photographer and earning a living at it aswell which is worrying.

 

[DuncanDisorderly]

I've been following this thread as it really hits close to home. I, rather rashly, offered to shoot my cousins wedding as they cannot afford a photographer. Since doing so I have thought about my limitations, both kit wise and ability and got nervous about the whole thing. However, I had a frank conversation with her the other night and expressed my concerns and told her that if it was a decision of whether to let me " have a go" or to hire a pro then she should hire a pro. Her response was that she didn't want the expense or formality of a professional shoot and would be happy with whatever I could get so I agreed to do it, unpaid of course. Still incredibly nervous but, on the plus side, I have talked the wife into letting me get some extra kit as you guys always recommend backup gear

Similar here!
A family I know really well has asked me to shoot their youngest son's wedding.
I said no, but a few things changed my mind.....

They positively do not want formal shots, only candids in the f1.4 style they know I'm capable of producing.
The service is being held in a woodland glade (how cool is that!).
The grooms mother is a photographer and she's making the albums, I only have to PP the images to my satisfaction.
I added a demand that the groom's brother creates a website so all the guests can upload images to be included into the album; he did the same for his own wedding and it worked well.

One thing that intrigues me is I reckon the family could afford a 'normal' wedding, but are actively going out of their way to avoid having one.
The venue will be a marquee in a field, filled with farmhouse cider and local cheeses with live music from a raucous Wurzels style band.
A lot of the guests will be sleeping in the marquee.
I reckon what they have in mind is brilliant and I'm really looking forward to it!
Fingers crossed for some decent weather.

 

[Harvey_nikon]

S

They positively do not want formal shots

Still be prepared for lots of guests grabbing you to take formal shots of them together or with the B&G.

Most weddings I've done I've been there until midnight or 1am and 50% of the last part of the day after the first dance is shots like that

I don't mind as it adds lots of extra shots for the couple, but I am much more into candid and catching special moments

 

[Phil1974]

Similar here!
A family I know really well has asked me to shoot their youngest son's wedding.
I said no, but a few things changed my mind.....

They positively do not want formal shots, only candids in the f1.4 style they know I'm capable of producing.
The service is being held in a woodland glade (how cool is that!).
The grooms mother is a photographer and she's making the albums, I only have to PP the images to my satisfaction.
I added a demand that the groom's brother creates a website so all the guests can upload images to be included into the album; he did the same for his own wedding and it worked well.

One thing that intrigues me is I reckon the family could afford a 'normal' wedding, but are actively going out of their way to avoid having one.
The venue will be a marquee in a field, filled with farmhouse cider and local cheeses with live music from a raucous Wurzels style band.
A lot of the guests will be sleeping in the marquee.
I reckon what they have in mind is brilliant and I'm really looking forward to it!
Fingers crossed for some decent weather.

That sounds like a fantastic day to be honest. It's all about what they want and not neccessarily conforming to the rules.
I'm sure you'll have a great day! Brilliant idea with the website too, will have to look into that myself.

 

[mattd85]

i'd do it in a heartbeat. What's the problem? Just tell them... you'll turn up.. take loads of pictures of the day.. free meal.. free booze... first dabs on the bridesmaids and if you don't like the pics then that's their choice. Be clear on that though.. NO OBLIGATION ON YOUR PART.

Only you know if you can produce images that will be of a reasonably acceptable quality - which is the best they can expect for a freebie

I said something similar to friend who has asked me to photograph his son's christening and offered to pay me,I turned it down straight away, told him i was no where near experienced enough.

I had done some shots of him, his wife and his baby boy a few weeks ago as a late wedding present, and they loved them, he kept on pleading with me so I asked "would I of been invited anyway if i didn't have the camera" he said "yes". My reply then was "well, me and the family will come as guests,i'll bring my camera and take some shots here and there, if they turn out good and you like them then you can get me a gift as a thank you or something along them lines, if they turn out poo poo then thats that"

It went down quite well

 

[Triggaaar]

I'm not sure whether thats true or not , (ive got a feeling that emotional distress may also be covered) but its irrelevant anyway because if you screw up someones wedding photos you are causing a financial loss - ie the cost of restaging the whole thing so that they can be re-shot - which could be thousands.

That doesn't sound right to me, there is case law (ie, there have been cases in court) where a poor photographer has had to pay back some of the fee, they haven't had to pay past that (eg, to re-do the wedding).

If you agree to do it that becomes a verbal contract (or a written one if by email) , of course if you werent getting paid it weakens the case but it doesnt go away entirely.

Do you know this? Because agreeing to do something as a favour, is not a verbal contract when there's no consideration (ie, payment). If I ask you to write up some advice for people on this forum, and you say yes, I can't then sue you if you don't.

 

[big soft moose]

That doesn't sound right to me, there is case law (ie, there have been cases in court) where a poor photographer has had to pay back some of the fee, they haven't had to pay past that (eg, to re-do the wedding).

so why do most pro's carry business costs insurance then (sometimes incorrectly refered to as proffesional indemnity insurance or PI for short) ? Because they might need it ! sure it doesnt happen very often but we have an increasingly litigious society, and even if its has never happened I for one don't want to run the risk of being first without some insurance cover (I've never had a car crash that was my fault but I still have fully comp car insurance etc)

Do you know this? Because agreeing to do something as a favour, is not a verbal contract when there's no consideration (ie, payment). If I ask you to write up some advice for people on this forum, and you say yes, I can't then sue you if you don't.

You're right that three does have to be a consideration , though it doesnt have to be cash it could be in kind (like "i'll shoot your wedding in return for being able to use the photos on my website" ) , but my point was that you can still be held to an agreement made verbally (like I'll shoot your wedding if you set me up with the bridesmaid) even if nothing is put in writing

 

[Triggaaar]

so why do most pro's carry business costs insurance then (sometimes incorrectly refered to as proffesional indemnity insurance or PI for short) ?

That's a good question, there's no agreement on what insurance is appropriate for a wedding photographer.

You're right that three does have to be a consideration , though it doesnt have to be cash it could be in kind (like "i'll shoot your wedding in return for being able to use the photos on my website" ) , but my point was that you can still be held to an agreement made verbally

I understand that verbal contracts are still contracts, but agreeing to do someone's wedding for free isn't a contract (there was no mention in this example of it being in exchange for using the pictures on a website).

 

[big soft moose]

I understand that verbal contracts are still contracts, but agreeing to do someone's wedding for free isn't a contract (there was no mention in this example of it being in exchange for using the pictures on a website).

Fair point - but in the bit you quoted me from we were talking generally not about this specific example - and my general point was you can still get sued even if you arent being paid if

a) if you have recieved any consideration in kind or any payment even if its only a few quid "for your trouble" and then fail to deliver on your side of the bargain

or b) if you cause any harm or damage

or c) or arguably if you b****r the pictures up so badly you inflict emotional distress on the B&G - thats a very grey area and is fairly unlikely (but not totally impossible)

 

[big soft moose]

Incidentally returning to the basic point that wedding photography isnt easy I was at a wedding this weekend (as a guest) where the bride (my sister in law ) got totally trashed at the reception and the 'first dance' had to be delayed for two and a half hours while she sobered up enough to be able to stop throwing up and be able to stand unaided.

The Tog was a total star and tried valiantly to fill the dead time by doing lots of couple and group shots to distract people from thinking WTF is going on ??? but by the time the bride finally did make it down and the first dance had been shot the tog had run herself so ragged that she had a crashing migraine and had to go home at about 9.30 because she could hardly see.

 

[Triggaaar]

my general point was you can still get sued even if you arent being paid if

a) if you have recieved any consideration in kind or any payment even if its only a few quid "for your trouble" and then fail to deliver on your side of the bargain

or b) if you cause any harm or damage

or c) or arguably if you b****r the pictures up so badly you inflict emotional distress on the B&G - thats a very grey area and is fairly unlikely (but not totally impossible)

a) - if you get a few quid, you are being paid.
At least we agree that you don't want to be getting anything as consideration.
b) I'd insist on being treated as any other guest who had a camera with them. You are not there in a professional capacity.
c) Seriously, no way a court would find against you for an emotionally distressed bride who didn't pay a penny for here wedding photos, and got someone who told them they weren't a professional.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree

 

[Deleted member 11790]

set out your stall either a pro that will produce the following ........

or a guest that will try and take on the challenge and get some decent shots that the B&G can accept as a gift ......

surely if you do this by prior agreement and consent then you cant go wrong. have been asked and refused but have given some nice relaxed images once i have attended the wedding and everyone seemed happy ?

 

[big soft moose]

a) - if you get a few quid, you are being paid.
At least we agree that you don't want to be getting anything as consideration.
b) I'd insist on being treated as any other guest who had a camera with them. You are not there in a professional capacity.
c) Seriously, no way a court would find against you for an emotionally distressed bride who didn't pay a penny for here wedding photos, and got someone who told them they weren't a professional.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree

I think actually we broadly do agree, with regard to B you are correct, but anyone who causes harm or damage can get sued even if they were there as a guest - if for example you put your camera bag down and great aunt flo falls over it and fractures her skull, the litigious society we live in will mean that some ambulance chasing shyster will be encouraging cousin bob, who never liked you anyway, to sue. Which is why a lot of camera insurance policies include legal cover (as do quite a few household ones , and in the even more litigious climate in the states personal insurance isnt unknown)

And with regard to c - I agree its unlikely but it isnt impossible (the substance of their possible case being he told us "he wasnt a proffesional but he also said he was a good amateur and these pictures arent of the standard we were led to expect" - and also even if you do eventually prevail in court theres no guarantee that you'll get your costs.

 

[Triggaaar]

I think actually we broadly do agree

I disagree on c, except the point on costs. You rarely get them all.

 

[asaspasas6]

Get him to rent some nice lenses, explain that you need them. you will have fun shooting with good gear you will gain some experience

 

[boyfalldown]

That doesn't sound right to me, there is case law (ie, there have been cases in court) where a poor photographer has had to pay back some of the fee, they haven't had to pay past that (eg, to re-do the wedding).

The 'case law' has all been in the county court where some or all fees have been ordered returned.

The county courts (or any of the other lower courts) can't create precident or 'case law'

 

[steve248]

I had some "friends" who asked me to shoot their wedding, she explained that I was invited anyway but could i do the photos? I explained that I was not at all comfortable doing it as I have never shot a wedding before and would not want to be responsible for such a wonderful day.

She asked and asked but i did stick to my guns and said I really would feel very unconfortable doing it but would be happy to hand over any snaps i take on the day but they should get someone qualified.

Anyway, my invitation never arrived, all their other friends did go and now the situation is a little weird. Not a falling out or anything like that but clearly me saying no was taken badly.

What can you do?

Another story came from this, someone else I know looks after children in a hospital ward and was also a "friend" and was asked to look after their children if that was ok during the wedding and reception. She also kindly said no as this was her only day off in weeks and she really would not have a busman's holiday.

Her invitation also did not arrive!

The moral of this is friends expect things and if they consider doing a photoshoot a petty thing, an hours work or something like that, it can be very difficult to say no and if you finally persuade them, they can take it badly, it is their big day and it is the least you can do for them!

It's not so bad if you are a plumber as not much of that needs doing on a wedding day! But if you take pictures, oh boy are you in trouble...

I have been asked 3 times now and so far said no each time, however, next time I might just say yes, who knows...

 

[big soft moose]

If they are that petty then they weren't worth having as freinds in the first place - their loss, **** 'em.

As I've mentioned before if its good mates asking (the sort of mate you'd give a kidney, go back into a burning building for, even give your last rolo) then I'm happy to shoot for free for them (although if they can afford it they usually insist on paying).

If its some freind of a freind , of an aquaintance then they can pay the going rate like anybody else , and if they don't like it they can take a flying **** at a rolling doughnut

 

[Iris]

Steve, that's utter garbage, I hope the bride wakes out of her haze soon & turns up with the biggest of apologies.

 

[swanseamale47]

I had some "friends" who asked me to shoot their wedding, she explained that I was invited anyway but could i do the photos? I explained that I was not at all comfortable doing it as I have never shot a wedding before and would not want to be responsible for such a wonderful day.

She asked and asked but i did stick to my guns and said I really would feel very unconfortable doing it but would be happy to hand over any snaps i take on the day but they should get someone qualified.

Anyway, my invitation never arrived, all their other friends did go and now the situation is a little weird. Not a falling out or anything like that but clearly me saying no was taken badly.

What can you do?

Another story came from this, someone else I know looks after children in a hospital ward and was also a "friend" and was asked to look after their children if that was ok during the wedding and reception. She also kindly said no as this was her only day off in weeks and she really would not have a busman's holiday.

Her invitation also did not arrive!

The moral of this is friends expect things and if they consider doing a photoshoot a petty thing, an hours work or something like that, it can be very difficult to say no and if you finally persuade them, they can take it badly, it is their big day and it is the least you can do for them!

It's not so bad if you are a plumber as not much of that needs doing on a wedding day! But if you take pictures, oh boy are you in trouble...

I have been asked 3 times now and so far said no each time, however, next time I might just say yes, who knows...

To be honest if thats the sort of "friend" they are your better off without them, they obviously only wanted to be friends to take advantage.

 

[PsiFox]

I had some "friends" who asked me to shoot their wedding, she explained that I was invited anyway but could i do the photos? I explained that I was not at all comfortable doing it as I have never shot a wedding before and would not want to be responsible for such a wonderful day.

She asked and asked but i did stick to my guns and said I really would feel very unconfortable doing it but would be happy to hand over any snaps i take on the day but they should get someone qualified.

Anyway, my invitation never arrived, all their other friends did go and now the situation is a little weird. Not a falling out or anything like that but clearly me saying no was taken badly.

What can you do?



Another story came from this, someone else I know looks after children in a hospital ward and was also a "friend" and was asked to look after their children if that was ok during the wedding and reception. She also kindly said no as this was her only day off in weeks and she really would not have a busman's holiday.

Her invitation also did not arrive!



The moral of this is friends expect things and if they consider doing a photoshoot a petty thing, an hours work or something like that, it can be very difficult to say no and if you finally persuade them, they can take it badly, it is their big day and it is the least you can do for them!

It's not so bad if you are a plumber as not much of that needs doing on a wedding day! But if you take pictures, oh boy are you in trouble...

I have been asked 3 times now and so far said no each time, however, next time I might just say yes, who knows...

Which to me suggests you were only being invited as you could save them a few quid, not as a friend?

Same for the other person.

 

[steve248]

Yes but a little more complicated I think. To be fair I think in their minds they were trying to put together a cheap wedding and wanted their friends to help out. If you happen to not have anything to offer then you were safe but if you did and said no then they just took it as a slap in the face.

I guess if you cannot personally comprehend how difficult it is to do, how much work there is behind the scenes and the incredible risks there are then things look different.

If you knew nothing of the problems and complexities of doing this and thought it was just something that you could just do while you were there anyway then you maybe a little insulted that someone would say no.

I genuinely think that they really thought it would be dead easy and very little to ask so were offended that I said no. Despite trying to explain how much was involved and how uncomfortable I felt about doing it.

 

[Russ77]

I've had a few people ask me if I "do" weddings in the last 6 months or so.

My polite response has been along the lines of "Really appreciate you asking me but unfortunately I don't do weddings. I don't have the right kit or experience for it and would hate to mess up one of the most important days of your life. If do have some friends/contacts that might be able to help you out so if you want their details"

That's normally been met with "fair enough, I understand"

In honestly, that statement is partially true..... in reality my Dad volunteered me to "do" a colleague's wedding when their photographer let them down weeks before the wedding and they were grateful for whatever I could do for them.

To say is was one of the most stressful days of my life is an understatement!!! I never say never but it's not something I'd readily choose to do again