Weston meter technique

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andephotographic

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So I got the bargain Mamiya and shot a roll of film through it and it seems that my metering hasn't been as great as it could have been as some of the exposures are a bit off, mostly the negs are a bit thin so I have under exposed.

The fact that the lens was jammed at f2.8 probably wont have helped as I was using shutter speed alone to alter my exposures (I have another lens coming) but I think my use of my two Weston meters need brushing up on. I'm used to using the built in meter in my DSLRs which given that I have a D200 and D3 are so goo they have spoiled me really. I usually use these in either spot or matrix mode.

The meters I have are a Weston Master II and a Weston master V.
I have an invercone which fits the V but I tend to use the II as it's a bit more retro and nicer to use and I don't really use the invercone anyway, I usually take a reflected reading so don't need it.

It seems to me that taking reflected readings would be the easiest/best way for me to work as I am often photographing subjects whom I cannot approach and hold a meter up to.

I think my main problem with using the Weston meters is that they 'see' quite wide so if you have some highlight or a light source at the edge or even outside of the camera's field of view then this is included in the metering.

One of my tutors today showed me a technique with a Sekonic meter where you take a reflected reading from very close to a mid grey and use these values and I wonder if I could carry a mid grey card with me so that I can position this relative to my Weston meter so that it is all it is 'seeing' and use this value?

I could buy myself a Sekonic or similar but if I can use the nice old Weston's I have I'd prefer to do so. I don't do much studio work so the flash metering capabilities of the Sekonic don't attract me.

Are there any techniques you use that you think would be helpful to me?

Yes I could carry one of my DSLRs and a lens equiv to what will be on the Mamiya to take test images to judge exposure by but I'd rather avoid this, the 645 is bulky enough without having to carry a second camera too!
 
i have a Weston Master V
only used recently with a Nikon F3 35mm colour print film and a 28mm Nikkor-H lens
i 'panned' the meter over the scene and 'sort-of' took an average EV value
quite pleased with the overall tones
.
c8322a1c.jpg



I do recall reading that the selenium cell 'can' be replaced [thus indicating it can deteriorate] so maybe take out a DSLR and compare EV values at the same ISO/shutter speed to see if there is any drop-off...?
 
Yardbent said:
i have a Weston Master V
only used recently with a Nikon F3 35mm colour print film and a 28mm Nikkor-H lens
i 'panned' the meter over the scene and 'sort-of' took an average EV value
quite pleased with the overall tones
.
c8322a1c.jpg



I do recall reading that the selenium cell 'can' be replaced [thus indicating it can deteriorate] so maybe take out a DSLR and compare EV values at the same ISO/shutter speed to see if there is any drop-off...?
Click to expand...

I have done the comparison and careful selection of where I aim the meter so as not to include areas of light or shade that won't fall within the image yield pretty good results, sometimes nicer than the camera's own meter actually!
I think I tried that sort of panning method, will give it more of a shot.
I guess the negs might actually print ok, will need to wait till I get darkroom access to see and once I get the new lens which will stop down it'll be a lot easier.
That first film wasn't too bad at all actually considering it was my first time using MF, only 2nd or 3rd film shot without in camera meter (I have a Zorki 4k too) and that it was handheld available light photography with MF.
 
Your tutor was correct...in a nutshell everything is based on "Kodak grey" inc all camera meters (dunno anything about DSLRs), so if your subject is in the same light as something Kodak grey (and you took the exposure reading of something Kodak grey), then you will have the correct exposure for your subject. And what is Kodak grey? well meters can't see colours so darkish green grass, shrubs and similar, grey road and pavements and even darkish blue sky is OK. So think like a meter ;)
....I sometimes used to use the back of my sun tanned hand and if your exposure meter stops working there is always the sunny 16 rule ;)

Going on from above say you wanted to take a shot of a bridge against a white sky the camera would be fooled but if you took the exposure readings of the pavement or road leading to the bridge, the bridge would be exposed correctly if in the same light i.e. not in shadow.
Same principle for snow shots, take the reading from the greyish/light brown bark of a tree (without snow) and you shot will come out ok. And if your scene has plenty of things that look Kodak grey your average non spot meter will average everything out and the shot will be ok, so no need to take seperate readings at these times.
 
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excalibur2 said:
Your tutor was correct...in a nutshell everything is based on "Kodak grey" inc all camera meters (dunno anything about DSLRs), so if your subject is in the same light as something Kodak grey (and you took the exposure reading of something Kodak grey), then you will have the correct exposure for your subject. And what is Kodak grey? well meters can't see colours so darkish green grass, shrubs and similar, grey road and pavements and even darkish blue sky is OK. So think like a meter ;)
....I sometimes used to use the back of my sun tanned hand and if your exposure meter stops working there is always the sunny 16 rule ;)

Going on from above say you wanted to take a shot of a bridge against a white sky the camera would be fooled but if you took the exposure readings of the pavement or road leading to the bridge, the bridge would be exposed correctly if in the same light i.e. not in shadow.
Same principle for snow shots, take the reading from the greyish/light brown bark of a tree (without snow) and you shot will come out ok. And if your scene has plenty of things that look Kodak grey your average non spot meter will average everything out and the shot will be ok, so no need to take seperate readings at these times.
Click to expand...

So sounds like I don't actually need a 'grey card' as I can just substitute something that's about a mid tone and with a bit of thought it'll be about right?
It's gonna be so much easier when I get a lens I can stop down.
Trying to control things by shutter speed when you only have 9 choices between a second and a 500th ain't exactly easy. And at least 5 or 6 of those speeds are too slow for handheld!
Again been spoiled by my DSLR that has 28 options over that range!
Another interesting tip or technique, this time from one of the technicians (the only one that's any use and can give pretty accurate light readings with just his eyes) was to use iso to suit the conditions.
I always thought that even though you can push and pull film, if you started shooting a roll at 400 iso then you HAD to shoot the whole roll at 400 but this guy was saying that he decides what he will dev the film at and then changes the iso that he meters for to suit the light on any given day/moment/frame.
I don't entirely get it but if he says it works then I believe him.
 
A Kodak R-27 grey card set is only about £10 from Calmut. I've only used mine a couple of times so far and am awaiting the results on the films. You do need to use a tripod or have a second person though as you have to hold the card at a third of the horizontal angle to the main light source (i.e the sun usually) and meter off the card as well as holding it at I think its a third of the vertical angle as well. Basically it becomes very hard to keep it in position, look through the viewfinder and meter off it. Kodak do provide a very detailed set of instructions though with the set and you can also use the white side for bouncing flash or taking a white balance reading if you like to lean towards the digital side.

Another way that I've tried is to multi-spot read, although I suppose with your Weston thats no good. Basically you take a reading for the highlights, a reading for the shadows and a third reading for a midtone like the sky and then average them. Again though I am awaiting the results.

I don't understand at all how that guy you mention could change the iso for each frame unless he was going to develop each individual frame separately. The only real way you can do that is with sheet film.
 
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s162216 said:
A Kodak R-27 grey card set is only about £10 from Calmut. I've only used mine a couple of times so far and am awaiting the results on the films. You do need to use a tripod or have a second person though as you have to hold the card at a third of the horizontal angle to the main light source (i.e the sun usually) and meter off the card as well as holding it at I think its a third of the vertical angle as well. Basically it becomes very hard to keep it in position, look through the viewfinder and meter off it. Kodak do provide a very detailed set of instructions though with the set and you can also use the white side for bouncing flash or taking a white balance reading if you like to lean towards the digital side.

Another way that I've tried is to multi-spot read, although I suppose with your Weston thats no good. Basically you take a reading for the highlights, a reading for the shadows and a third reading for a midtone like the sky and then average them. Again though I am awaiting the results.

I don't understand at all how that guy you mention could change the iso for each frame unless he was going to develop each individual frame separately. The only real way you can do that is with sheet film.
Click to expand...

Nah he def said dev the whole film as one.
I'll maybe ask him to explain it more.
It was to do with slow isos being less contrasty than fast ones so on dull flat days you shoot it as a fast film to push contrast up and on bright days you shoot it slow to lessen the harshness of the light and somehow at development it all works out.
Maybe you had to dev the film at the standard stated iso.
Like I say though, if he says it will work, it will, the guy is a walking encyclopedia of analogue photography technique.
He gave me a very interesting tutorial on using the Ilford Multigrade enlarger, all about changing your grade halfway through an exposure and never using the grade you want, like if you want a 4 then you should do it for a few seconds (depending on your overall exposure time) at 3 or 3 1/2 to punch through the dark part of your neg and give you highlight detail then go upto 5 which has more filtration on it so your blacks will retain detail.
 
String said:
You don't need anything really :0

Meter either

1. The Grass or

2. The concrete pavement or road.

Both will give good results
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In the shade right?
Not like total shadow but just not anywhere that there might be a shaft of light or something like that.

When I was taking reflected readings I was just holding the meter infront of me at sort of chest height, pointing straight forward so would have been getting too much light from the sky (shot the film on a bright day last week) which would explain the under exposure.
 
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andephotographic said:
In the shade right?
Not like total shadow but just not anywhere that there might be a shaft of light or something like that.

When I was taking reflected readings I was just holding the meter infront of me at sort of chest height, pointing straight forward so would have been getting too much light from the sky (shot the film on a bright day last week) which would explain the under exposure.
Click to expand...

No. Grass and concrete represent the kind of mid tone that grey would present. So take your reflected readings from them.

Alternatively, if the lighting is fairly uniform, use your invercone and point the meter at the camera and measure the incdident light readinbg. You don't have to be standing by the subject, as long as the light falling on it is the same as the light falling on you.
 
you must take a reading in the same lighting as the subject - tilt the reflected meter down slightly for a more accurate reading. Try readings from the back of your hand - but you must always be in the same light as the subject. Incident light readings are almost always more accuate - if taken correctly.
 
awp said:
you must take a reading in the same lighting as the subject - tilt the reflected meter down slightly for a more accurate reading. Try readings from the back of your hand - but you must always be in the same light as the subject. Incident light readings are almost always more accuate - if taken correctly.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Sometimes you do things and it's so hard to sit here and describe what you do automatically. Well, at my age, I do lol and if you metewr the back of your hand, add a stop.
 
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I should just buy a metered prism!
No, I love the WLF too much, I will learn this!
 
***So sounds like I don't actually need a 'grey card' as I can just substitute something that's about a mid tone and with a bit of thought it'll be about right?****

Well I have a Kodak grey card and never use it, the camera meter can handle most situations, using negative film, as most shots are from subjects near Kodak grey and anyway the lab would compensate any exposure errors in the prints, erm didn't KR say "he overexposed neg film by 4 stops and couldn't see the difference in print".
But the Kodak card would be handy for tricky light situations or for using positive film.
 
excalibur2 said:
...and anyway the lab would compensate any exposure errors...
Click to expand...

The what?
But yeah, I keep forgetting that there's a lot of latitude at the printing stage.
The other day I did two prints from the same strip of film (35mm) one took an 8 second exposure and the other a 50 second exposure.
 
andephotographic said:
The what?
But yeah, I keep forgetting that there's a lot of latitude at the printing stage.
The other day I did two prints from the same strip of film (35mm) one took an 8 second exposure and the other a 50 second exposure.
Click to expand...

Well I was thinking more of the modern method of scanning negs for prints.
 
s162216 said:
A Kodak R-27 grey card set is only about £10 from Calmut. I've only used mine a couple of times so far and am awaiting the results on the films. You do need to use a tripod or have a second person though as you have to hold the card at a third of the horizontal angle to the main light source (i.e the sun usually) and meter off the card as well as holding it at I think its a third of the vertical angle as well. Basically it becomes very hard to keep it in position, look through the viewfinder and meter off it. Kodak do provide a very detailed set of instructions though with the set and you can also use the white side for bouncing flash or taking a white balance reading if you like to lean towards the digital side.

Another way that I've tried is to multi-spot read, although I suppose with your Weston thats no good. Basically you take a reading for the highlights, a reading for the shadows and a third reading for a midtone like the sky and then average them. Again though I am awaiting the results.

I don't understand at all how that guy you mention could change the iso for each frame unless he was going to develop each individual frame separately. The only real way you can do that is with sheet film.
Click to expand...

erm I too don't get why the guy is changing the ISO/ASA sometimes for each frame when you can just alter the aperture or shutter speed.
For me I've got to the stage when I only get exposure errors when trying out a new camera or I stop thinking and OH and using a flash gun is more tricky........erm stop thinking? A few months ago I took some shots of ducks in the water and forgot the water was reflecting white sky :confused: if it had been nice blue sky it would have been OK (y)
 
excalibur2 said:
Well I was thinking more of the modern method of scanning negs for prints.
Click to expand...

I could do that but I'd rather do hand prints with MF negs.
The local lab will dev my C41 35mm films and scan or scan uncut home devved negs quite cheaply but I'd have to go further afield for MF scans or do them on my flatbed which usually results in lots of dust and not sure what the scanner res is either.
 
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