What are people's thoughts on the grey market area websites?

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I'm aware of serial numbers - however... how do the manufactures know that that particular serial was sold through a grey market importer? There's every chance you purchased that serial number through a legitimate re-seller in the designated market - that's why I ask, how do they know? We know that Nikon / Canon aren't supplying the grey market dealers directly - otherwise they'd simply stop the supply.
 
rob-nikon said:
The point depends on who is the importer. For majority of these grey sellers the buyer is the importer and it’s down to the buyer to declare it to customs & exercise and to pay any applicable import duties. The sellers aren’t liable even though they often say they will assist in clearing customs and pay the import duties if they occur. That often means they put something else down, often lower value, on the import declaration, and pay the odd one that may be caught. HM customs & exercise can’t check every parcel so don’t spot these so most get through. HDEW are the oddity in that they will give you a VAT receipt if you ask for one but still have you down as the importer on their website. No one knows how HDEW have done it for years but the fact they have stopped selling certain brands probably means something chsnged and they can’t do it any more for specific brands.

It’s not a police matter it’s a HM customs & exercise matter. The easiest way would be purchase it and declare it to them then see what they say. If there are not duties applicable then they would say nothing to pay. If there are they would give you a bill. Don’t think just because you bought on a website you don’t have any responsibilities because it’s often the buyers responsibility and not the sellers. This explains it quite well:

https://www.moneywise.co.uk/bills/s...ectronics-grey-market-dos-donts-it-even-legal



pretty simple really, Serial numbers.


To be honest I don’t care two hoots if people purchase grey imports or not. What does bug me when people give incorrect information on TP about it and class it as fact. You can do what you want but at least be fully aware of what you’re doing and the potential implications.
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Yeah but wouldn't all of this heavily fall under ignorance. Because I'm not exactly stupid and I'm quite computer literate and never knew any of this. So if anything was to happen they can't prosecute you or anything if you have no idea. Obviously that doesn't always apply with law but with something like that I'd say so
 
toohuge said:
I'm aware of serial numbers - however... how do the manufactures know that that particular serial was sold through a grey market importer? There's every chance you purchased that serial number through a legitimate re-seller in the designated market - that's why I ask, how do they know? We know that Nikon / Canon aren't supplying the grey market dealers directly - otherwise they'd simply stop the supply.
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That's actually a good point
 
Connor Moore said:
Yeah but wouldn't all of this heavily fall under ignorance. Because I'm not exactly stupid and I'm quite computer literate and never knew any of this. So if anything was to happen they can't prosecute you or anything if you have no idea. Obviously that doesn't always apply with law but with something like that I'd say so
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Ignorance is no defence, it's been tried and tested more than once right up to the Supreme Court.
 
toohuge said:
I'm aware of serial numbers - however... how do the manufactures know that that particular serial was sold through a grey market importer? There's every chance you purchased that serial number through a legitimate re-seller in the designated market - that's why I ask, how do they know? We know that Nikon / Canon aren't supplying the grey market dealers directly - otherwise they'd simply stop the supply.
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I imported a new Tamron lens a few years ago and sent it to Tamron uk for a firmware update. It was the 45 1.8 and ironically needed a firmware update before I could then go onto update it myself using the Tamron tap in console. Tamron UK could determine from the serial number it was grey and whilst they were happy to ‘work’ on it I was to pay for the privilege. It added another £45 to the cost but still much cheaper doing it that way!
 
Brazo said:
I imported a new Tamron lens a few years ago and sent it to Tamron uk for a firmware update. It was the 45 1.8 and ironically needed a firmware update before I could then go onto update it myself using the Tamron tap in console. Tamron UK could determine from the serial number it was grey and whilst they were happy to ‘work’ on it I was to pay for the privilege. It added another £45 to the cost but still much cheaper doing it that way!
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Surely they could determine it was sourced outside the EU?
Here’s tamrons view:

https://www.tamron.eu/uk/service/grey-imports/

It seems tamron offer E.U. wide warranties from authorized dealers and make the assumption it is grey if sourced from outside the E.U. on the grounds of serial number tracking - fair enough.
That said - if I ordered a lens from the us for example - what would tamrons response be if I sent it for warranty work here? I imagine it’d be declined as outside of the warranty area - but they couldn’t claim it was a grey import
 
toohuge said:
Surely they could determine it was sourced outside the EU?
Here’s tamrons view:

https://www.tamron.eu/uk/service/grey-imports/

It seems tamron offer E.U. wide warranties from authorized dealers and make the assumption it is grey if sourced from outside the E.U. on the grounds of serial number tracking - fair enough.
That said - if I ordered a lens from the us for example - what would tamrons response be if I sent it for warranty work here? I imagine it’d be declined as outside of the warranty area - but they couldn’t claim it was a grey import
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Yes they did determine it indeed they told me before I even sent it in that if it wasn’t uk stock I would have to pay, fair enough I thought.

I think the thing is when you pay for a lens you don’t just pay for the plastic and glass. There is 30-40% on top to cover warranty, recalls, customer service and all the extras that come with selling such things.

If you bypass that 30-40% premium then I can accept you shouldn’t then get the ‘service’.
 
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Brazo said:
Yes they did determine it indeed they told me before I even sent it in that if it wasn’t uk stock I would have to pay, fair enough I thought.

I think the thing is when you pay for a lens you don’t just pay for the plastic and glass. There is 30-40% on top to cover warranty, recalls, customer service and all the extras that come with selling such things.

If you bypass that 30-40% premium then I can accept you shouldn’t then get the ‘service’.
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I totally agree with you.

I’m happy to pay for service (in panamoz case they reimburse you).

It is a little funny that manufactures push buying from an authorized dealer citing service as a benefit - surely the goods should be of sufficient quality not to need repair ;)
 
toohuge said:
I'm aware of serial numbers - however... how do the manufactures know that that particular serial was sold through a grey market importer? There's every chance you purchased that serial number through a legitimate re-seller in the designated market - that's why I ask, how do they know? We know that Nikon / Canon aren't supplying the grey market dealers directly - otherwise they'd simply stop the supply.
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Connor Moore said:
That's actually a good point
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They ask for a receipt.
 
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troutfisher said:
I have bought a couple of lenses from e infinity with no problem and very significant savings,I am not sure if I would use the grey market for a big ticket item I would have to be very sure before I did but thats me being ultra careful
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I have been looking at them to buy some RF lenses , with what I want to buy there is a saving of over £5000 in UK shop prices , I thought about buying the body here for the UK warranty but the lenses from them .
 
Rik Anthony said:
I have been looking at them to buy some RF lenses , with what I want to buy there is a saving of over £5000 in UK shop prices , I thought about buying the body here for the UK warranty but the lenses from them .
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£5,000 is a no brainer! You could even fly out with an empty camera bag, buy there, and come back after a week's jollies and still have saved loads :D

Dave
 
admirable said:
They ask for a receipt.
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Whats stopping you flying to Hong Kong and buying them there and getting on a plane the next day with your purchase , its no different than buying them from any other legit seller any where else in the world , I looked into doing this for some RF lenses , the flights are £400ish and a nights hotel is cheap , I would still save myself nearly £4500 compared to UK prices , obviously with this virus s*** going on I wouldn't go at the minute , but its still a possibility.
 
DG Phototraining said:
£5,000 is a no brainer! You could even fly out with an empty camera bag, buy there, and come back after a week's jollies and still have saved loads :D

Dave
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Yes we looked into that the flights are about £450 return in May and a 5 star hotel with all meals included was about £125 a night but you could do it a lot cheaper , obviously I wouldn't go at the minute with the virus but its still a possibility .
 
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Rik Anthony said:
Whats stopping you flying to Hong Kong and buying them there and getting on a plane the next day with your purchase , its no different than buying them from any other legit seller any where else in the world , I looked into doing this for some RF lenses , the flights are £400ish and a nights hotel is cheap , I would still save myself nearly £4500 compared to UK prices , obviously with this virus s*** going on I wouldn't go at the minute , but its still a possibility.
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Absolutely nothing, you still have to declare and pay any VAT and or Import Duty on your trip through customs. My post about the receipt was regarding the warranty issue with CPS that Kipax brought up. If you buy a non UK supplied camera and it needs warranty work done within the warranty time frame you no longer enjoy the free service provided by CPS.
 
admirable said:
Absolutely nothing, you still have to declare and pay any VAT and or Import Duty on your trip through customs. My post about the receipt was regarding the warranty issue with CPS that Kipax brought up. If you buy a non UK supplied camera and it needs warranty work done within the warranty time frame you no longer enjoy the free service provided by CPS.
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Vert true , but how many camera bodies have you had to send back for warranty work , I haven't encountered that once with anything I have owned yet , and that's going back to the late 80's when I owned a Minolta 9000 , I wouldn't do it with the body anyway I would buy here for that , but the lens saving could give me a Canon R5 for nothing compared to UK prices .
 
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DG Phototraining said:
Just to add - the warranty thing doesn't bother me at all

I've never had an issue with any camera or lens I've owned, so if there was a 'hit' for a repair it wouldn't bother me in the slightest compared to the thousands of £s saved

Dave
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I agree I have never had to have any warranty work either .
 
Connor Moore said:
It's actually not against the law. It may be for the companies but not for the consumer. You're buying online and people aren't to know this. There would be no problems with the law and buying equipment. I I went to the police station and told them that I bought a camera online on grey market they would probably say so...
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Connor Moore said:
Yeah but if you buy it online all of that comes in the price, if it comes to you, you have done nothing wrong. It's all a legit process

From a secure website that is
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Of course its not illegal to import anything however if you are importing goods as a consumer or business you are responsible for any duty and tax owed to HMRC.
 
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DG Phototraining said:
I suspect most people on TP do illegal things most days just driving their cars

Anyway, online research clearly states buying genuine products through the grey market is not illegal, the black market yes, but the grey no

Dave
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So if you are breaking the law on a daily basis in your car that somehow justifies taking the chance on defrauding HMRC ? are there anymore crimes on your list that are justified by your logic ?
 
I’d recommend Panamoz too - I actually had an issue wishing the first 30days with a new Canon and they couriered a replacement within days. No issues or debating, just swift efficient customer service! As a result, I’ll buy more from them in the future.

In the last 10 years and many lenses & bodies later I’ve only had one loss - when I bought from a “local” seller via an eBay Shop with more than 10,000 positive reviews and trading for more than 5 years - when they shut up shop. The Manufacture would not support the warranty but they recommended a repair centre. The savings on all the other equipment has saved more than the one items repairs
 
Studio488commercial said:
So if you are breaking the law on a daily basis in your car that somehow justifies taking the chance on defrauding HMRC ? are there anymore crimes on your list that are justified by your logic ?
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HMRC doesn't give a s*** to anyone starting a business but not making enough profit to pay tax below £2000, so they obviously don't give a s*** too to anyone avoiding VAT on imports or the grey market wouldn't exist - simples

Driving at 34mph in a 30mph zone is far more of an issue, so that's what authorities go for as it easier to charge & collect revenue; driving at 40mph in a 30mph may kill people, avoiding a tax rarely does

There are many articles saying grey isn't illegal, even the UK's Guardian newspaper, hence the "grey" market rather than the Black or Illegal market

Dave
 
A mate of mines bought a Sony a7riii from a grey market website.
After a few months the camera totally packed in so in the end he had to send it back to Sony who, IIRC, have a set price of £120 for repair
He claimed from the grey market website and was reimbursed in a matter of days.

Knowing this, I would have no problems with buying from one of these sites.
 
Studio488commercial said:
So if you are breaking the law on a daily basis in your car that somehow justifies taking the chance on defrauding HMRC ? are there anymore crimes on your list that are justified by your logic ?
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What warrants HMRC charging so much in tax in the first place , 4 RF lenses through a genuine uk dealer is over £11000 the same lenses through a grey importer is just over £6000 , why the difference . Also shouldn't HMRC be more concerned with our dodgy politicians , musicians and big business who are defrauding this country of Billions each year , should I feel bad about importing a few lenses cheap I think not
 
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DG Phototraining said:
HMRC doesn't give a s*** to anyone starting a business but not making enough profit to pay tax below £2000, so they obviously don't give a s*** too to anyone avoiding VAT on imports or the grey market wouldn't exist - simples

Driving at 34mph in a 30mph zone is far more of an issue, so that's what authorities go for as it easier to charge & collect revenue; driving at 40mph in a 30mph may kill people, avoiding a tax rarely does

There are many articles saying grey isn't illegal, even the UK's Guardian newspaper, hence the "grey" market rather than the Black or Illegal market

Dave
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Wow, you are stating that you can run a business and make £10500 profit and HMRC art not bothered about it.......... care to point us in the direction of the HMRC site that states that ?

The conversation was about the legality of the grey market, and the wrong information being stated on here, the facts are the grey market, which is basically importing goods is clearly not illegal, not declaring the tax due on the import of goods over a certain value is illegal. Just because HMRC cannot catch everyone doesn't make it right, chances of getting caught with stolen goods are slim to none these days, but you would do that would you ?
 
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Rik Anthony said:
What warrants HMRC charging so much in tax in the first place , 4 RF lenses through a genuine uk dealer is over £11000 the same lenses through a grey importer is just over £6000 , why the difference . Also shouldn't HMRC be more concerned with our dodgy politicians , musicians and big business who are defrauding this country of Billions each year , should I feel bad about importing a few lenses cheap I think not
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That difference isn't all tax. For some items the base price before tax is also cheaper than what the official importer charges.
 
Fordsabroad said:
Kipax

are you saying that if I bought a canon camera in the USA whilst living there and brought it back to the UK 10 months later that CPS would not cover me? If that is the case it is pretty poor show.
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Correct they wont... I have some greay equipment in my CPS list and they ahve marked it as grey and no liable to the same level of service
 
toohuge said:
How do they know though? Canon have offered me CPS simply through my qualifying gear (I no longer qualify due to age of gear etc) however even though this was purchased used (so original source was in doubt) it didn’t seem to be a problem.
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I know because I am in the CPS and I in my lst of equipment they have marked which are grey and state they wont give the same level of service.... You may want to check your gear list in the CPS ..
 
From my CPS

grey goods will not be eligible to benefit from local Canon warranty support. It is up to the retailer to provide warranty support for grey goods. If the seller is located outside of your region, then you may not receive the help you expect from the seller. Alternatively, if warranty servicing is provided by the seller it may be provided by independent service centres, whose warranty services are not in line with Canon standards.

So I wont get 2 day turnaround on my equiment if its grey import.... the paid to fix seems to have changed and I "may" gte the full service...
 
KIPAX said:
I know because I am in the CPS and I in my lst of equipment they have marked which are grey and state they wont give the same level of service.... You may want to check your gear list in the CPS ..
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I think someone may have a legal case asked Canon if they don't honour the warranty or the level of service , at the end of the day it's a Canon product regardless of where its bought , especially when you are paying for them in the country where they are made , just because the duty is paid on a product or not doesn't let them off their duty of customer service to their product .I would love to see this challenged in court . If you paid the duty of the product coming into the country that makes it a legal registered product in the UK , so how could they bow out of the warranty then .
 
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All of the manufacturers will repair grey equipment as long as you pay for the repair. However none of them allow you to register grey equipment on there business user scenes NPS for Nikon, CPS, Sony pro support for Sony.

To be honest it doesn’t make any odds really. The advantage of the pro support is that you get expedited repairs and loan equipment usually.

Worth noting that paid repairs also get expedited above normal warranty work so your only really losing out on loan equipment.
 
f/2.8 said:
Worth noting that paid repairs also get expedited above normal warranty work so your only really losing out on loan equipment.
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But your losing out on a 2 year warranty quick and loan from canon who wont touch it.... Your comments are only true on out of warranty repairs... Hence I stand by my statement I would pay the extra when buying :)
 
Rik Anthony said:
I think someone may have a legal case asked Canon if they don't honour the warranty or the level of service , at the end of the day it's a Canon product regardless of where its bought , especially when you are paying for them in the country where they are made , just because the duty is paid on a product or not doesn't let them off their duty of customer service to their product .I would love to see this challenged in court . If you paid the duty of the product coming into the country that makes it a legal registered product in the UK , so how could they bow out of the warranty then .
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How could that possibly work, when you buy your equipment you buy using the trading laws of the country you buy from, these are clearly different from place to place, there are no global selling regulations., as someone else has said, I personally don’t care how people buy their gear, however if you want cheap equipment and are prepared to evade the tax, then your gears warranty will be flawed, and you are committing illegal activity in the form of tax evasion, it is your responsibility to declare and pay import duty and vat for goods imported over a certain value.

It does make me chuckle how people try to justify tax evasion with silly comparisons or price point issues.
 
KIPAX said:
But your losing out on a 2 year warranty quick and loan from canon who wont touch it.... Your comments are only true on out of warranty repairs... Hence I stand by my statement I would pay the extra when buying :)
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But you aren’t losing out on a 2 year warranty Panamoz as an example will pay for warranty repairs for 3 years from the date of purchase.

Like I said the only thing you lose from the pro support is the option for loan equipment.
 
Studio488commercial said:
Wow, you are stating that you can run a business and make £10500 profit and HMRC art not bothered about it.......... care to point us in the direction of the HMRC site that states that ?
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That's the advice from a well known accountant on here, but to be clear, I said (well thought I'd said) that earning £2,000 doesn't raise interest from HMRC as it costs them more to create the file than in tax collected from a £2,000 extra income; not that they'd ignore £2,000 in tax due

Anyway, we're off theme again, so lets not take this point further :)

Dave
 
Stephen L said:
Bought from Panamoz and E-Infinity with no problems. Shop around as sometimes one is cheaper than the other. Customer service seems to be better than certain UK dealers.
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Yes - definitely check prices.
Just because it's "grey" doesn't automatically mean it will be cheaper.
At present Panamoz are MORE expensive than Amazon UK for certain Olympus lenses.
 
Studio488commercial said:
I take it you didn't declare it and as such are now a criminal :exit:
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I was all prepared for a host of HMRC officers to attempt to break down my door, but looking at the packaging the sender's address is within the UK - so it looks kinda like they had already imported it and just sent it on to me. AFAIK a transfer into Yorkshire isn't yet a 'border' for VAT purposes ;)

However it was done - my front door is intact as is my conscience :)

Dave
 
DG Phototraining said:
I was all prepared for a host of HMRC officers to attempt to break down my door, but looking at the packaging the sender's address is within the UK - so it looks kinda like they had already imported it and just sent it on to me. AFAIK a transfer into Yorkshire isn't yet a 'border' for VAT purposes ;)

However it was done - my front door is intact as is my conscience :)

Dave
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Just not sure as a business owner and professional this is something you should be shouting about.

Its bad enough evading tax, but admitting to being in/from Yorkshire is a terrible thing to say. :banana:
 
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