What is 'the' major difference?

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McNyat

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Ciaran
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Heres the thing.... over the weekend I was lucky enough to have a few quick shots with a 1d mk4 at a local U10's football day. There was an on-site tog shooting and selling brilliant shots from throughout the day. I asked him when it was over if I could have a play with his camera and he duely obliged. The shots wre much better that any I normally take and it all seemed much easier with his gear.

We discussed reasons why similar shots that I take at home of my children playing in the garden werent as sharp (IOS, shutter speed, apperture, the lighting etc) so upon getting home I took out my 550d with kit lens and took some more shots but there were just no-where near the same quality. I feel that my main problem might be the lens, (I have also tried my 55-200 IS lens with similar results) He was using 2/no L spec lens, one was the 70-200 and the other was a shorther one which I didnt exactly get the spec of.

I am considering puschasing a new lens ( and maybe an upgrade of camera) in the future or maybe get a Xmas prezzie (you never know) and am wondering if this will help?
Please consider my thoughts following the weekend and let me know if you agree/or not as the case my well be>

1. The 1d is full frame and so will pack more detail than my cropped sensor and also a shallower DOF?

2. The L spec lens will accomodate wider appertures giving faster shutter speeds and more suitable DOF for that type of outdoor action shots?

3.The L spec lens has a far superior auto-focus which will pick out the subject much better than my lens?

4. The L spec lens will obviously be a better lens which will increase IQ?

5. Does the camera body have any imput towards the autofocus?

Am I correct in thinking at the moment that if I was to buy a superior lens to those that I already have I could benefit on points 2,3 & 4 above?

Please help.
 
1: No, the 1d is still a crop, less of a crop but still 1.3x instead of your 1.6x. It will offer some benifits to dynamic range and IQ over what you have but its not groundbreaking stuff.
2: Generally an L will offer lower apertures (allowing higher shutterspeeds) than non L and can be quite a bit sharper at the edges.
3: Yes
4: Better build, better sharpness (but some non Ls will match it in centre) and usually better contrast/IQ but at a price
5: The pro and newer semi pro bodies allow you to micro adjust AF to match your lens and the pro bodies tend to have really good AI autofocus tracking compared to the other models.
You will probably notice the biggest difference with the lens, then another big, but not so huge jump when upgrading to a 1d. All these little IQ improvements all add up though hence why you seen quite a difference when playing with the 1d!
 
I recently (well in May) changed from a Sigma 120-400 to a 100-400L and shooting motorsport my keep rate has gone up by around 20-25%. I put this entirely down to faster and more accurate autofocus. Better optics has also played a part as the L glass resolves more detail at longer range.

Bodies and sensors do have a role to play but I certainly believe that better lenses offer a lot more "bang for buck". A good lens also has the potential to last a lifetime, which most bodies won't (except the 5D Mk1 which will still be popular well into the next century).
 
the AF systems on the 1D's are miles ahead of the others (maybe exception of 7D) for sports.

while good glass is essential i wouldnt get hung up on it being "L", as long as its a nice fast offering from one of the manufacturers (any of the 70-200s from canon or sigma, the sigma 120-300 etc).
 
Football day was outdoor. Lot of light, autofocus job is much easier (faster and more precise). More space between object and background give you feeling of space and volume. Not same as then you shoot your children at home.
Make you camera's job easier :) Bring children out on the sunshine late afternoon. Not football field, but park with lot of space in background. Stay that your back in the direction of sun (avoid shooting against sun). use your 200mm IS lens wide open (f/5.6 in your case?). Ajust zoom by walking forward/backward keeping mm close to maximum. Sit down so that camera are low on the eye level of your small model or completely lay down on the ground. Do you still have poor result?
 
A big thank you to you guys who have taken the time to respond, (y), just a few more things to clarify my thoughts.
I think that I would like (further on down the line to buy either a 5d or 7d, or even further down the line maybe both) but think I will aim for a really top notch lens for now.

Am I correct in thinking that the lens would contribute roughly 70-80% (of any improvements) towards great autofocus for sports with the camera providing the rest.

Neil G mentioned above about the 1d & 7d's AF systems being great. Is this mainly for the likes of AI servo mode etc for moving subjects? How much of this is actually down to the camera?

If I were to buy a good lens now and pair it with my 550d, would the improvements (mainly around the autofocus) be much greater than they would be later on if I were to buy a 7d or 5d and pair it with the same lens?

Please bear with me guys..... I know I'm repeating myself a tad here but I'm grasping it all bit by bit!! ;)
 
lens will contribute. f/2.8 will give better autofocus result then shooting unpredictably moving objects like kids or animals. USM lens will aim much faster then non USM. Difference is really small, but with kids this milliseconds make difference. Try 85mm 1.8, or killing for budget 85mm 1.2 ;) With last one all shots will be amazing
But again, light draws the picture, not even lens. No light = no picture ) So try to play with the light.

7D 1D 1Ds has great autofocus system. 5D and 5Dmk2 have less autofocus points, but actually i never use any except center one. Benefit of 5D is full size sensor (just like 1Ds), but compact size, also mark2 is waterproof then 7D not.
 
You don't really need great AF for shooting your kids. The old 5D has similar AF to the xxxD bodies, and I got on fine shooting footy with it.

The lens will make a difference as will the camera, I don't think you can really quantify it as 70% or anything though. Try focusing with an 85 f/1.8 for example (nice and quick) and then an 85 f/1.2 (nice and slow even though its a two grand lens, because it has a couple of pounds of glass to shift).

Before you go dumping a load of cash, you really should go and have a play with some more kit. Before I bought my 1D, I was looking at the 7D, but when I got my hands on it I really wasn't impressed, so waited for an interest free deal to appear on a 1D. :)
 
Thanks again.

Do any of you know of or use any lens hire companies in N Ireland that I might be able to obtain a few lens' to try for my self for a while? I will try some of the test shot suggestions mentioned above with my existing and the new lens'. I live fairly central in NI btw.
 
Spend on lenses the quality will improve even with a low end body. I currently have 3 high end lenses 24-70L 70-200L and the 300mm all f/2.8 and I fasten them all to either a 450D or a 500D looks a little stupid with the 300mm but I get results I like. I will upgrade the body and now I know what I enjoy shooting I know which body's I want to buy.

The advantage the 1D and I believe the 7D have is they have more focus points and they can configured to work together in zones to enhance the focusing the 1D has more points and is more configurable to your personal preferences.
 
Little John said:
Spend on lenses the quality will improve even with a low end body. I currently have 3 high end lenses 24-70L 70-200L and the 300mm all f/2.8 and I fasten them all to either a 450D or a 500D looks a little stupid with the 300mm but I get results I like. I will upgrade the body and now I know what I enjoy shooting I know which body's I want to buy.

The advantage the 1D and I believe the 7D have is they have more focus points and they can configured to work together in zones to enhance the focusing the 1D has more points and is more configurable to your personal preferences.
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Thats similar to what my thought process is at the min. I believe that the 5d is great for portraits and landscape while the 7d is great for sports. I love shooting all, and although it is a little while away yet I would like to buy one of these. Which one would be the best for all of the alove mentioned genres of shooting? Also would which ever one I decied to eventually buy influence my choice of lens now for my 550d? (hope I explianed that correctly :thinking:)
 
Its tough, I also do a bit of event work so I really could do with a 5D for portrait stuff but I think the fact I really enjoy sports more I have to buy the camera that is best for that and maybe if it isnt suited to the portrait and event stuff look at a 5D in addition to the others. The real issue is the 5D doesn't really do sports very well
 
Ciaran,

we have all gone with upgraditis before. I started with a 400D, went to a 40D and now settled on a 7D. But as has been said get glass first.... a new decent lens will be the best way to go. For a fraction of the price of a piece of 'L' you could try something like the Tamron 28-75 f2.8. Great all rounder and 2.8 as awell.

Taking smaller steps will allow you to try different things before you splash out. However you could not go wrong with a 5D mkII or a 7D - the low light shooting capability is great. If you stick with what you have for a camera body and get glass first, bear in mind that if you end up getting a 5D (full frame) you can only use EF lenses on this.

You could spend an eon trying to work out what you need - but when you are starting, take smaller steps and try different things. The best way to do this is to join a camera club.. not as bad as you might think.

Kieran.
 
McNyat said:
Thanks again.

Do any of you know of or use any lens hire companies in N Ireland that I might be able to obtain a few lens' to try for my self for a while? I will try some of the test shot suggestions mentioned above with my existing and the new lens'. I live fairly central in NI btw.
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Anyone?? :shrug:
 
lenses for hire do

http://www.lensesforhire.co.uk/

but it's about £20 delivery i think. i haven't hired anything from them myself but i've been considering it.

i had the chance to have a play with a 24-105 L at the weekend and really got on with it. my best shot of the day came from a 50/1.8 though lol
 
Hi again guys, I have been trying out some of the suggestions above with varying degrees of success. Things are hectic at the mo with two girls getting ready for school in the morn.

Just another query to keep my education trunding along. If I was using my 550d and a 7d with the same lens I assume the 7d would give better action shots (again, around the autofocus issus)?? Why is this and what is it that the 7d has that causes it?

Also if i was shooting portraits with my 550d and a 5d (with the same lens) the 5d would give better shots? Same as above, why is this?

Thanking you in adavance :)
 
McNyat said:
If I was using my 550d and a 7d with the same lens I assume the 7d would give better action shots (again, around the autofocus issus)?? Why is this and what is it that the 7d has that causes it?
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The 7D has a better autofocus system. That's about it as far as image quality goes as they both use the same sensors...

McNyat said:
Also if i was shooting portraits with my 550d and a 5d (with the same lens) the 5d would give better shots? Same as above, why is this?
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You wouldn't. You'd use a longer lens for the "same" picture as the sensor is bigger. Longer lenses produce less perspective distortion so for the same picture the lens distortion tends to be less. That and the fact that when you enlarge the picture, you have to enlarge the full frame one less to get the same picture size which generally means a better quality image (all things being equal, the larger sensor will produce the better picture).
 
arad85 said:
The 7D has a better autofocus system. That's about it as far as image quality goes as they both use the same sensors...

You wouldn't. You'd use a longer lens for the "same" picture as the sensor is bigger. Longer lenses produce less perspective distortion so for the same picture the lens distortion tends to be less. That and the fact that when you enlarge the picture, you have to enlarge the full frame one less to get the same picture size which generally means a better quality image (all things being equal, the larger sensor will produce the better picture).
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Cheers Andy, would the 5d also have a better autofocus system that the 550d?
 
McNyat said:
Cheers Andy, would the 5d also have a better autofocus system that the 550d?
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Not really. They are slightly different, but not as advanced as the 7D focus system
 
When you go to a friends and she cooks a gorgeous cake do you complement the quality of the oven?
Perhaps the quality of images are down to experience and practice, we all buy stuff we want but dont need, think about that and try to exhaust all the possibilities with your own kit before buying new
 
A real hearty thank you to each and everyone that has taken the time to offer their advice, I really appreciate it. (y)

Having taken on board all of the above please let me know your thoughts on the following:

Following various tests (as outlined above) and having since spoken to some friends that know more than I do about photography my best course of action at this point would be to invest in better quality glass. They use Nikkon so I cannot try their lenses. :razz:

The first change would be to upgrade my kit lens, the 18-55 IS as it is the weakest of thethree that I have (the 55-250 IS & the 50mm 1.8 prime being the other two). Any upgrades will have to be compatible with the 5D as I feel that this may be my body of choice when making my next purchase. Would these lenses fit the 7D as well? (this is what I would like to upgrade my 550D to eventually).

The types of shooting that I do at the moment are of my children (both portrait type and more candid/action shots) and I also love shooting event photography like family weddings, landscapes, and sports days and football.

With regards to lens choice I believe in the 'buy good, buy once' theory, and so am tending to lean towards spending a little extra on one of the better lenses and being happy with it (ie, not always having to wonder 'what if I had bought the other lens?) Obviously value for money should be considered but I am aiming towards the higher end, and I know that some suggestions have already been given above but please point me in the direction of an upgrade for my 18-55 IS.

Thanks again guys. I'm aware that I dont know as much as most of you but I have trolled the web and carried out various tests covering tropids, IS, shutter speeds,F nos, mirror lockup, ISO, lighting and available light, subject movement etc etc and believe that I have given this lens a fair crack. Dont get me wrong.... the pics are fairly good, but I am a bit on the fussy side to be honest and am striving for real high quality.

Cheers.;)
 
OK looks like your not too aware of the way canon kit works
you have (lets call them) crop cameras and non crop cameras (I wont call them full frame as the 1D isnt but it wont take lenses designed for a crop camera.
Crop cameras are 1000D, 1100D 450D, 500D, 550D, 600D, 40D, 50D, 60D and the 7D they will use EF and EF-s lenses.
Non crop are 5D, 5Dmk2, 1Dmk1-4 and the 1Ds up to mk3. They will only use EF lenses (EF-s lenses won't work on the non crop cameras.

Canon EF-s lenses use a white square as the guide when putting them on the body EF use a red spot so your 18-55 and 55-250 are EF-s the 50mm 1.8 is an EF.

If you have a look at the back the EF-s lenses have a bit extra sticking out and on a non crop risks hitting the mirror. so you would think ok I will just buy EF lenses so when I get a non crop camera they will fit. Well look at the EF-s range they usually start their zooms at 17mm or 18mm which is quite wide normally but due to the crop factor you multiply it by 1.6 which makes the field of view not so great which is why they are 17 or 18mm where the EF lenses start about the 24mm mark which on a none crop is quite wide put it on a crop then its not so wide so that is a downside to buying EF lenses and using them on a crop camera.

The thing is you will addapt your shooting style to the lenses you have, if your wide angle is 24mm you take a few steps back, it is very rare when you can't do that but yes it does happen occasionally. But you will find that no matter how wide your lens is you will always find that one shot that you can't fit in same can be said at the other end you will always want to get closer than your lens allows. That is the point when you buy an ultra wide angle or a longer telephoto. There is no good one lens for every job, ok canon made the 28-300mm L but a combination of lenses over that range are better.

It is very difficult to decide where your heading especially when your not sure what you want to shoot. The 7d will take great photos as will the 5Dmk2 but the 5Dmk2 wont do sports very well so would your landscape shots suffer using a 7D?

I love the range I have 10mm all the way up to 600mm with teleconverters but my 2 most commonly use lenses are the 24-70 and the 70-200 I have addapted my shooting to work with 24mm and I generally only use the 10-22 when I am playing on a dance floor and longer exposure with 2nd curtain flash or getting a group dancing or at a table as it is beautifully sharp. Saying that I did a party tonight and 80% of the shots were with the 50mm 1.8 over £3K of lenses in the bag and I'm using the one that cost £90 but I enjoyed using it.
 
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OK.

Anything up to 7D (i.e., xxxD, xxD) will take EF-S lenses. Everything above (ie. 5D/5D2/1D/1Ds) needs EF lenses.

If you're "stuck" on 7D and below, just buy the best EF-S lens you can get. The good ones hold their value and produce brilliant pictures. When you go full frame, sell and rebuy the appropriate FF lens.

With a crop only, I'd nuy either 17-55 f2.8 IS or 15-85 f3.5-5.6 IS (note 15-> not 17->). Either are great lenses and produce fabulous results on crops. Forget the L hype and go for what makes great pictures...

I have both 5D2 and 7D. I use the 5D2 exclusively, the 7D (with 15-85) is Ms arad85s. She only ever uses the darned thing on P and centre focus and takes some stunning photos. It's not the camera, but the photographer that makes the difference ;)
 
Little John said:
OK looks like your not too aware of the way canon kit works
you have (lets call them) crop cameras and non crop cameras (I wont call them full frame as the 1D isnt but it wont take lenses designed for a crop camera.
Crop cameras are 1000D, 1100D 450D, 500D, 550D, 600D, 40D, 50D, 60D and the 7D they will use EF and EF-s lenses.
Non crop are 5D, 5Dmk2, 1Dmk1-4 and the 1Ds up to mk3. They will only use EF lenses (EF-s lenses won't work on the non crop cameras.

Canon EF-s lenses use a white square as the guide when putting them on the body EF use a red spot so your 18-55 and 55-250 are EF-s the 50mm 1.8 is an EF.

If you have a look at the back the EF-s lenses have a bit extra sticking out and on a non crop risks hitting the mirror. so you would think ok I will just buy EF lenses so when I get a non crop camera they will fit. Well look at the EF-s range they usually start their zooms at 17mm or 18mm which is quite wide normally but due to the crop factor you multiply it by 1.6 which makes the field of view not so great which is why they are 17 or 18mm where the EF lenses start about the 24mm mark which on a none crop is quite wide put it on a crop then its not so wide so that is a downside to buying EF lenses and using them on a crop camera.

The thing is you will addapt your shooting style to the lenses you have, if your wide angle is 24mm you take a few steps back, it is very rare when you can't do that but yes it does happen occasionally. But you will find that no matter how wide your lens is you will always find that one shot that you can't fit in same can be said at the other end you will always want to get closer than your lens allows. That is the point when you buy an ultra wide angle or a longer telephoto. There is no good one lens for every job, ok canon made the 28-300mm L but a combination of lenses over that range are better.

It is very difficult to decide where your heading especially when your not sure what you want to shoot. The 7d will take great photos as will the 5Dmk2 but the 5Dmk2 wont do sports very well so would your landscape shots suffer using a 7D?

I love the range I have 10mm all the way up to 600mm with teleconverters but my 2 most commonly use lenses are the 24-70 and the 70-200 I have addapted my shooting to work with 24mm and I generally only use the 10-22 when I am playing on a dance floor and longer exposure with 2nd curtain flash or getting a group dancing or at a table as it is beautifully sharp. Saying that I did a party tonight and 80% of the shots were with the 50mm 1.8 over £3K of lenses in the bag and I'm using the one that cost £90 but I enjoyed using it.
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Cheers LittleJohn,

Funny these are the 2 lenses that I am looking closest at. I assume you would recommend both?
 
arad85 said:
OK.

Anything up to 7D (i.e., xxxD, xxD) will take EF-S lenses. Everything above (ie. 5D/5D2/1D/1Ds) needs EF lenses.

If you're "stuck" on 7D and below, just buy the best EF-S lens you can get. The good ones hold their value and produce brilliant pictures. When you go full frame, sell and rebuy the appropriate FF lens.

With a crop only, I'd nuy either 17-55 f2.8 IS or 15-85 f3.5-5.6 IS (note 15-> not 17->). Either are great lenses and produce fabulous results on crops. Forget the L hype and go for what makes great pictures...

I have both 5D2 and 7D. I use the 5D2 exclusively, the 7D (with 15-85) is Ms arad85s. She only ever uses the darned thing on P and centre focus and takes some stunning photos. It's not the camera, but the photographer that makes the difference ;)
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Thanks Andy, would either of these teo lenses fit a non crop camera? Also, which one would you recommend the most?

Hi, me again, have just looked into this and think I am correct in saying that the above lenses wont fit a non crop camera. Still wonder which is the better lens though?
 
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Both the 17-55 and the 15-85 are both EF-s lenses so wont fit a non crop body. The 17-55 is very higly rated and if canon allowed their red ring to be attached to EF-s lenses it is often said that it would be on this lens.

Better lens for what? My suggestion is to have a look at the images you currently have, what focal length are you using the most? This is the way I worked out between the 17-55 and the 24-70mm. If your up at the longer end most then a 24mm wide isnt going to make much difference to you but 70mm over 55mm would so consider the 24-70mm. If your down at 18mm then you would be better with a lens that will go wide so the 17-55 would be better. For your current shooting style there is no point having "the best lens ever" but it not working for how and what you are planning to shoot on the camera body you are currently using.

My stand offish shooting is great with longer lenses on a crop I can stand back and shoot happily but If I was an in your face shooter I would be better with a wider lens, when I go to a non crop body my style and method of shooting will have to change as I don't plan on replacing the lenses I already have. Planning for the future is great but if the future is 18 months away of saving then it is better to have the best for the 18 month untill you upgrade.
 
Ive looked about but cant seem to see if these lenses have IS or not?
 
Images of the lenses give that away
17-55 EF-s
1012403.jpg

15-85 EF-s
1033228_2.jpg


The 24-70 isn't an IS lens
 
Heres my thinking at the minute......

I am currently thinking about the Cannon 17-55 f2.8 IS lens. It seems to be a really good lens given the ratings and comments from users on the reviews. This could then be changed to something else should I change to a 5d at a later date. It seems to me that all decent lenses hold their money well and so I would not make a latge loss on it. I had thought about the 24-70 and the 24-104 but neither have both the 2.8 apperture AND image stabiliser :shake:

Some of you have mentioned other 'non Cannon' lenses above.... which might fit a 5d. How would they compare to the on that I mentioed above? Or does anyone have any further suggestions? :thinking:
 
I have seen a website 'simply electronics' which seems to be v reasonable...... Has anyone used them?
 
McNyat said:
I have seen a website 'simply electronics' which seems to be v reasonable...... Has anyone used them?
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I think Simply Electronics are a Hong Kong based company. When I was looking for my D7000 I was very tempted but found a great price elsewhere which was UK stock. Heard good and bad things about them.
 
McNyat said:
Heres my thinking at the minute......

I am currently thinking about the Cannon 17-55 f2.8 IS lens. It seems to be a really good lens given the ratings and comments from users on the reviews. This could then be changed to something else should I change to a 5d at a later date. It seems to me that all decent lenses hold their money well and so I would not make a latge loss on it. I had thought about the 24-70 and the 24-104 but neither have both the 2.8 apperture AND image stabiliser :shake:

Some of you have mentioned other 'non Cannon' lenses above.... which might fit a 5d. How would they compare to the on that I mentioed above? Or does anyone have any further suggestions? :thinking:
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Any one else??
 
McNyat said:
Any one else??
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Why don't you post a few pics on here to let us see the IQ, poses, composition and the kind of shots you want to take.

Then we'd have a better idea of your needs.

Personally my first choice which is both cheap and exceptionally sharp from f2.0 upwards is the "Nifty Fifty" which I have used on numerous occasions when photographing kids indoors.

Outside I usually use the 28-135mm IS USM which I find performs perfectly adequately at a good price.

.
 
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petersmart said:
Why don't you post a few pics on here to let us see the IQ, poses, composition and the kind of shots you want to take.

Then we'd have a better idea of your needs.

Personally my first choice which is both cheap and exceptionally sharp from f2.0 upwards is the "Nifty Fifty" which I have used on numerous occasions when photographing kids indoors.

Outside I usually use the 28-135mm IS USM which I find performs perfectly adequately at a good price.

.
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Hi Peter,

Thanks for your advice (as well as the other Peter above too), I will try to get some soon.
 
Heres a few. These may look ok at this size on screen but trust me when I say that they are soft when you see the larger images :(. They are typical of many of the types of shot that I am trying to take.


What do you think?? Still going to buy the new lens but just would like as many informed opinions as possible please.


emma22.JPG


ciara.JPG


emma3.JPG



Thanks guys (y)
 
It's difficult to judge these shots at this size, particularly for sharpness. If you join Flickr you can host your images there for free and show them here at TPs size limit of 1024 pixels on the longest side and even link to much larger versions if you wish.

Definitely spend your money on lenses first and choose wisely - it's an expensive game but lenses hold their value really well while the price of all bodies plummets with each new model - which happens at much more frequent intervals these days.
 
CT said:
It's difficult to judge these shots at this size, particularly for sharpness. If you join Flickr you can host your images there for free and show them here at TPs size limit of 1024 pixels on the longest side and even link to much larger versions if you wish.

Definitely spend your money on lenses first and choose wisely - it's an expensive game but lenses hold their value really well while the price of all bodies plummets with each new model - which happens at much more frequent intervals these days.
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Cheers CT
 
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