what portrait/group lens would you recommend?

mani

mani

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Name
Imran
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Looking to get a decent wide lens in prep for my nieces wedding - i'm sure i'll get plenty of "take a photo of us" requests!

the choices are:-

Sigma 28 80mm Wide angle Zoom

SONY/MINOLTA FIT COSINA AF 19-35mm F3.5-4.5 ZOOM

Sony 28mm F/2.8 Fixed Lens

which one would you recommend for good potrait/group shots? being shot indoors
 
If you have a A200 and 18-70mm none of the lenses you mention in the body of your post are wider. You do know that, right?

I suppose that the 28mm f2.8 could help you in low light but 28mm isn't very wide on an APS-C DSLR and is the equivalent of 42mm on your camera, I think. If you are happy with that sort of length maybe a 28mm f1.8 or 30mm f1.4 might be a good idea?
 
I would use your 50 1.8. Good length for solo portraits on your camera, and perfect for nice shallow depth of field effects at f/1.8, and/or low light. Or your 18-70 will be good for either singles, couples or groups.

In other words, you don't need another lens, but that flash you've promised yourself will come in very handy, possibly essential. Get to learn how to use it - bouncing, balancing with ambient, using a bounce card etc.

PS Don't try any f/1.8 shallow DoF tricks with groups though, you'll never get them all in focus. Solo shots only (focus on the eyes), or couples if you can line them up very carefully. Get some practise with that technique too, using single-point AF.
 
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HoppyUK said:
PS Don't try any f/1.8 shallow DoF tricks with groups though, you'll never get them all in focus. Solo shots only, or couples if you can line them up very carefully.
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I keep reading comments like this... and it's not strictly true is it?

DoF can be thin but it varies with distance and our perception varies too depending upon the composition and the size of things in the frame. It's possible to take a shot at wide aperture in which the subject / subjects will appear to be in acceptable focus and within the DoF at reasonable viewing sizes and distance as long as the picture and how it is viewed are DoF friendly.

F1.summot does not have to = obviously paper thin DoF.
 
woof woof said:
I keep reading comments like this... and it's not strictly true is it?

DoF can be thin but it varies with distance and our perception varies too depending upon the composition and the size of things in the frame. It's possible to take a shot at wide aperture in which the subject / subjects will appear to be in acceptable focus and within the DoF at reasonable viewing sizes and distance as long as the picture and how it is viewed are DoF friendly.

F1.summot does not have to = obviously paper thin DoF.
Click to expand...



Sorry but a group shot at f1.8 is asking for trouble unless they are lined up perfectly and so small in the frame it goes from being a group portrait to a landscape image with some people in there somewhere.
 
lensflair said:
Sorry but a group shot at f1.8 is asking for trouble unless they are lined up perfectly and so small in the frame it goes from being a group portrait to a landscape image with some people in there somewhere.
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I agree Graham, and I've come unstuck a couple of times, even at mid-range apertures. I like to fill the frame, which emphasises it.

And if you have them arranged so perfectly in line that they are acceptably within the wafer-thin DoF, it looks very unnatural - like they're waiting for a firing squad.
 
I agree too. Far better to be too conservative and have a little too much dof than too little
 
thanks for the words guys

i've decided against buying the lens - i'm going for a case instead - move away from the camcorder case i'm using at the moment!

My flash should come today or saturday so i'm hoping to blind a few of my test subjects!

need to know how to bounce etc so going to get some practice on that!
 
HoppyUK said:
I agree Graham, and I've come unstuck a couple of times, even at mid-range apertures. I like to fill the frame, which emphasises it.

And if you have them arranged so perfectly in line that they are acceptably within the wafer-thin DoF, it looks very unnatural - like they're waiting for a firing squad.
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Eh????

Graham and Richard...

A look at some DoF tables should show you how DoF alters with distance. Practice shots may also show you the difference between wide aperture shots at a close distance and at greater distance.

Assuming that a group shot will be taken at a greater rather than a closer distance a wide aperture shot could be a valid option, although as I said, it does depend upon distance, composition and the size of the subject or subjects in the frame and also image size and viewing distance. It's not going to work for a close up fill the frame head shot.

For example, if using a 50mm lens you're going to have to back off to get everyone in depending upon the size of your group and how far you need to back off even at f1.4 at 30 to 50 feet you're DoF is going to be between 6 for closer distances and 20 feet for further. At 20mm and f1.8 (I don't have a 20mm f1.4...) and assuming you back off 15 to 30 feet your DoF will be 12 feet to hundreds. Be a bit more realistic but staying wider than a f2.8 zoom will allow you to and things get even more achievable.

I'm not claiming that a f1.8 shot will look razor sharp across the frame if blown up to the size of a house and viewed with a magnifying glass but real world examples at reasonable sizes and viewed realistically don't have to look like close up shallow depth flower shots.

PS. Just noticed that two of you doubters are stating that you use full frame cameras... The op seems to be using an APS-C (as do I) and the DoF tables / values I mentioned relate to APS-C distances and DoF, not full frame.
 
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woof woof said:
Eh????

Graham and Richard...

A look at some DoF tables should show you how DoF alters with distance. Practice shots may also show you the difference between wide aperture shots at a close distance and at greater distance.

Assuming that a group shot will be taken at a greater rather than a closer distance a wide aperture shot could be a valid option, although as I said, it does depend upon distance, composition and the size of the subject or subjects in the frame and also image size and viewing distance. It's not going to work for a close up fill the frame head shot.

For example, if using a 50mm lens you're going to have to back off to get everyone in depending upon the size of your group and how far you need to back off even at f1.4 at 30 to 50 feet you're DoF is going to be between 6 for closer distances and 20 feet for further. At 20mm and f1.8 (I don't have a 20mm f1.4...) and assuming you back off 15 to 30 feet your DoF will be 12 feet to hundreds. Be a bit more realistic but staying wider than a f2.8 zoom will allow you to and things get even more achievable.

I'm not claiming that a f1.8 shot will look razor sharp across the frame if blown up to the size of a house and viewed with a magnifying glass but real world examples at reasonable sizes and viewed realistically don't have to look like close up shallow depth flower shots.
Click to expand...


I'm not talking about DOF charts, but what happens in the real world with the focal lengths and distances I use for groups of people. I tend to fill the frame with them and I wouldn't shoot a small group at less than 5.6, usually around f8 - f11.
 
HoppyUK said:
I agree Graham, and I've come unstuck a couple of times, even at mid-range apertures. I like to fill the frame, which emphasises it.

And if you have them arranged so perfectly in line that they are acceptably within the wafer-thin DoF, it looks very unnatural - like they're waiting for a firing squad.
Click to expand...

Out of interest what aperture would you suggest for these sort of group shots?
 
lensflair said:
I'm not talking about DOF charts, but what happens in the real world with the focal lengths and distances I use for groups of people. I tend to fill the frame with them and I wouldn't shoot a small group at less than 5.6, usually around f8 - f11.
Click to expand...


This may be news to you but DoF charts are pretty much what happens in the real world :)

Look, it doesn't matter what you do, or what I do. My initial point was that for a group shot (not a close up head shot) a wider aperture could be an option, WITH all of the caveats of thinking about what you are doing, distance, composition, viewing distance etc.

If after thinking about all of the options the op (or anyone else) opts for different options all well and good but I just thought it was worthwhile pointing out that f=largish does not have to scream paper thin DoF all of the time.

Perhaps I was excessively nit picking Hoppy's post. I'll try not to be so anal :)
 
woof woof said:
Eh????

Graham and Richard...

A look at some DoF tables should show you how DoF alters with distance. Practice shots may also show you the difference between wide aperture shots at a close distance and at greater distance.

Assuming that a group shot will be taken at a greater rather than a closer distance a wide aperture shot could be a valid option, although as I said, it does depend upon distance, composition and the size of the subject or subjects in the frame and also image size and viewing distance. It's not going to work for a close up fill the frame head shot.

For example, if using a 50mm lens you're going to have to back off to get everyone in depending upon the size of your group and how far you need to back off even at f1.4 at 30 to 50 feet you're DoF is going to be between 6 for closer distances and 20 feet for further. At 20mm and f1.8 (I don't have a 20mm f1.4...) and assuming you back off 15 to 30 feet your DoF will be 12 feet to hundreds. Be a bit more realistic but staying wider than a f2.8 zoom will allow you to and things get even more achievable.

I'm not claiming that a f1.8 shot will look razor sharp across the frame if blown up to the size of a house and viewed with a magnifying glass but real world examples at reasonable sizes and viewed realistically don't have to look like close up shallow depth flower shots.

PS. Just noticed that two of you doubters are stating that you use full frame cameras... The op seems to be using an APS-C (as do I) and the DoF tables / values I mentioned relate to APS-C distances and DoF, not full frame.
Click to expand...

When I say group, I mean 3-6 people in one or two rows (any more is a crowd). I would probably shoot that at around 50mm on full frame, from around 10ft (not 30-50ft!). In which case, at f/1.8 the DoF would be 1.3ft - nowhere near enough. Probably go for f/5.6 (with a dash of fill-in flash :D) which would give me about 4ft of DoF, maybe f/8 to allow for some movement as these things are often quite fluid and a bit for any focus error.

On a crop format camera, that would equate to f/4-5.6 with appropriate adjustments to focal length of course.

I would say the only safe time to use a really low f/number would be for that solo head shot, because you can nail the eyes and there's nobody else in the shot to matter. Nice effect :thumbs:

Jimbob, go to www.dofmaster.com and check your depth of field exactly.
 
HoppyUK said:
When I say group, I mean 3-6 people in one or two rows (any more is a crowd). I would probably shoot that at around 50mm on full frame, from around 10ft (not 30-50ft!). In which case, at f/1.8 the DoF would be 1.3ft - nowhere near enough.
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Are you photographing midgets? (No offence meant to any midgets viewing this forum...)

As far as I know the op has a APS-C camera, I have a 20D which is also a crop camera and at 50mm I might be lucky enough to get a whole body shot in the frame at 30 feet in portrait orientation but not a group and not in landscape which I'd probably be using for a group shot... to fit a group in.

At 50mm and 10ft on APS-C you'd have to be photographing small people or doing tight shots. At 50mm and 30 feet which would be borderline too close for a whole body shot of an adult let alone a group shot, in any orientation, even at f1.4 the DoF is over 6 feet. At 20mm on APS-C, about the same as 30mm on your full frame, at 10ft, probably still too close, DoF would be over 4 feet at f1.4.

The distances and DoF I quoted were assuming a group shot at realistic distances to get the subject in the frame and I still think that the option is perfectly valid, at least it's something to think about using. Googling to tables should confirm all this.

Whatever works for each of us... as you may know I'm always keen on pointing out available options to have in the tool box. Just because it's possible doesn't mean that you have to do it but my original reason for posting was that I thought that you were painting a slightly too pessimistic picture about DoF for the op and APS-C, gotta remember that this is potentially an APS-C camera and group shots not a tight or full frame shot.

Anyway, having clarified this for positively the last time anyone who doubts what DoF they'll get at various apertures and distances for either full frame or APS-C or any other format can Google their way to some nice real world applicable DoF tables and make their own mind up.
 
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WW, I think the difference between us is mainly in the definition of a group shot. I'm talking half a dozen people, waist up.

And I quoted a 50mm lens on full frame, equivalent field of view to a about 30mm on a cropper.

At ten feet distance, that gives a field of view roughly 8ft wide across the long side. That's tons of room for at least six people, in two rows of three. Or a couple 8ft tall ;) DoF would be as quoted on full frame, ie 1.3ft at f/1.8 (far too shallow IMHO) and a bit over 4ft at f/5.6, which is more like it.

Anyway, as you say, the DoF tables tell you exactly what you'll get, according to particular circumstances.
 
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