What`s it all about?

[Yv]

Right, I have moved several posts from another thread into here, so if a few don't make sense, I am sure you will still all get the gist.

 

[BillN_33]

Not vaguely excited Bill, more mildly amused that the first thing you notice, or rather didn't, is a difference in font sizes, so just answering your point.

My comment was mean't to amuse, (but not many would see that) …………must be the way I was trained ……. a lot of my comments are supposed to be amusing, (well to me they are when I put them in the context of the comments before) ……… sometimes I find stuff like that far more interesting than what people say or express …….. and it really is.

Obviously someone mean't to emphasise the point we are discussing when they considered the rules, that link should have been the first "port of call" when the discussion started ……. not particularly by a Mod, but by someone who had read it.

In my "professional" opinion, I still think that it should be embolden to highlight it especially as it settles this discussion.

 

[Neil B]

Imagine the tears when Brash makes his grand announcement of the "Robin of the year" winner :arghh:

 

[Yv]

My comment was mean't to amuse, (but not many would see that) …………must be the way I was trained ……. a lot of my comments are supposed to be amusing, (well to me they are when I put them in the context of the comments before) ……… sometimes I find stuff like that far more interesting than what people say or express …….. and it really is.

Obviously someone mean't to emphasise the point we are discussing when they considered the rules, that link should have been the first "port of call" when the discussion started ……. not particularly by a Mod, but by someone who had read it.

In my "professional" opinion, I still think that it should be embolden to highlight it especially as it settles this discussion.

Ok there you go, I have bolded several salient points of that guide.

 

[BillN_33]

Imagine the tears when Brash makes his grand announcement of the "Robin of the year" winner :arghh:

He better not give out his address ……. I suggested the post as I have a "cruel" mind … if the prize is a framed picture of him all entries will suddenly be withdrawn


Yvonne, that you very much, if you need any further advice please do not hesitate to contact me and in the meantime have a good evenings rest, you deserve it

 

[Cobra]

There is already a prefix option when posting new threads
Really?

no there isn't it simply states and very misleadingly PHOTOS:BIRDS there is no mention of CRITIQUE at all .oh hissy one read my post properly it is meant to be helpful and constructive .this crap on here has got to stop for everyones sakes !!!!

Maybe its just us mods that are blessed with it then?
View attachment 23806

 

[BillN_33]

just think of the value that we could create, in bird ID, images, behaviour, library, etc., etc., if we just got organised and got on …….. tremendous amount of resource, skill, knowledge and ability on here that just not get brought together.

1+1+1 on here never makes 3, ………. 2 at best and usually just 1


Words (never) fail me… …. but they do seem to fail some

 

[Cg_Girl]

So far Bill words really haven't failed you

 

[Phil Young]

I can't remember the last time I posted for critique...

I think you reach a stage where generally, you KNOW if it's good or not and if it's for sharing I'll post in the appropriate section, general photo sharing.

If I do post in the dedicated sections it's because I'm om the bench about my image and will take comments with an open mind.

I also rarely go into the dedicated sections now, there's a lot of either ego boosting or OPs disagreeing with you / coming up with excuses for their downfalls and I just can't be bothered with that...

Bottom line, I think if people do post their image, they need to at least acknowledge people's input and try to be open to their suggestions. If you don't agree thank them politely and move on.

If someone is giving critique it's because IN THEIR EYES, it's not perfect and there's too many on here that just want some ego stroking.

 

[petersmart]

I've read through the posts on here and two things have struck me

Why is it on a section on nature and not on the Site Help or general discussions sections?

And, moderately importantly (at least it seems so to me) why are all the "contenders" on here almost all MALE (apart from Yvonne?)

Testosterone anyone ?

I post pics on here as well and sometimes get no interest at all which often tells me that, although I may find the picture interesting and worth taking, no one else does.

Sometimes I get a good review and I am pleased by them.

Sometimes I get a REAL critique, by which I mean that the review really pans a pic which I may think is great - but that happens and I try to learn from the criticism, and, even though I may be totally convinced that the critic keeps his brains tucked securely up his backside and his opinions are of less worth than the dog turds I stepped in yesterday, I still try to consider them.

To deviate from this path slightly; many years ago I spent 3 1/2 years in the Merchant Navy where the guys there had NO problems with giving me their opinion of me and absolutely everything about me.

I also on one 4 1/2 month voyage had to share a cabin with a raving alcoholic lunatic who wanted to kill me - the end result of that was that I spent that entire voyage in a state of slight apprehension and rarely sleeping!

So you can really believe me when I say that the harshest criticism I have ever received on here falls several miles short of those experiences - so if anyone wishes to criticise any of my pics in the future please feel free to do so knowing that I have experienced far worse - and so I suspect, have most of you, although perhaps not to my level.
.

 

[Phil Young]

Pete, there's a female member on here that I posted critique to. So up her own arse it's unbelievable. Defends herself against ALL negative critique and absorbs all positive. So it isn't just men

 

[Yv]

Pete, its in here because whilst it is a forum wide issue, it creates far more arguments and dummy spitting in the Bird section than anywhere else, hence I guess why Rich posted in Talk Nature. Yes, it could be moved to elsewhere, but given that a lot of people in nature rarely venture into other sections, I suspect it might not have got the response As to the gender thing, the simple fact is, we have lots more men who photograph birds [and in fairness, wildlife generally] than women, a lot more. I have no idea why this is, I can only comment from my own point of view which is that other than the occasional garden bird, I simply don't have time to sit around for hours on end waiting for the perfect opportunity [something I hope to remedy in the coming years] but I am pretty sure guys have similar time restrictions if they are working, so that can't really explain the disparity.



However, I do want to make one point as part of the discussion rather than just moderating it, it is something that really grinds my gears, as a member first and foremost but also as a long standing member of staff here too. My issue [and so we are very clear, this has been discussed in the staff room and is considered an issue there too] is manners, and specifically the simple act of saying thankyou. [here comes the bolded bit, on Bills advice of course, because it's an important point] If someone has taken the time to make a comment on your photo, the least you can do is take the time to thank them. It is happening more frequently again atm, someone will post a picture, it gets a load of replies but the poster is never seen in the thread again. It is what my dear old mum would have called 'pig-ignorant', though I happen to think pigs are far more polite than that. We have picked people up on this, and more often than not the excuse is 'I didn't have time' - now whilst I can understand we all have time restrictions and in some cases it is genuine, it sure as hell isn't genuine when that person seems to have found time to log in, post more pictures, make a few posts in other threads but still not managed to visit their own. It also makes offering critique pretty darned pointless, as it simply says it has been ignored and none of the points valued or taken on board. Which, given the current state of the poll posted with this thread, that "Because I wanted to find out where I was going wrong and walk away having learnt something." is the leading vote option, in fact pretty much the only one with votes, you can see how contradictory such (in)actions are.

Anyway, I shall leave it at that, I think I need more coffee.

 

[BillN_33]

Trust me to chime in "Like" a broken record …… but as i have always said a "Thanks" button is better than a "Like" Button ……. OK they have different means in other parts of life ……. but when someone "Likes" a critical posts or that type of posting, (you know what I mean), it can start or perpetuate the "bad will" that is/was generated.

To say Thanks …… you have to add another posting …….. and just a one word posting can not look shallow …….. but if you hit a Thanks button, particular as part of that image posting ………. only expresses the "Thanks for posting" opinion, which could be an "agree", "disagree" or "neutral expression".

It appears to me that "some" members use "like" to be mischievous and to indicate which "camp" they are in

IMHO

 

[NSNO]

However, I do want to make one point as part of the discussion rather than just moderating it, it is something that really grinds my gears, as a member first and foremost but also as a long standing member of staff here too. My issue [and so we are very clear, this has been discussed in the staff room and is considered an issue there too] is manners, and specifically the simple act of saying thankyou. [here comes the bolded bit, on Bills advice of course, because it's an important point] If someone has taken the time to make a comment on your photo, the least you can do is take the time to thank them. It is happening more frequently again atm, someone will post a picture, it gets a load of replies but the poster is never seen in the thread again. It is what my dear old mum would have called 'pig-ignorant', though I happen to think pigs are far more polite than that. We have picked people up on this, and more often than not the excuse is 'I didn't have time' - now whilst I can understand we all have time restrictions and in some cases it is genuine, it sure as hell isn't genuine when that person seems to have found time to log in, post more pictures, make a few posts in other threads but still not managed to visit their own. It also makes offering critique pretty darned pointless, as it simply says it has been ignored and none of the points valued or taken on board. Which, given the current state of the poll posted with this thread, that "Because I wanted to find out where I was going wrong and walk away having learnt something." is the leading vote option, in fact pretty much the only one with votes, you can see how contradictory such (in)actions are.

Anyway, I shall leave it at that, I think I need more coffee.

I very rarely thank people for comments but it's because I don't want to keep bumping my own threads back to the top. I suggested having a thanks button instead of like to get round this problem but the idea was shot down

 

[Cg_Girl]

To be honest I'd much rather someone actually say thank you than press a button...
To me a thank you button is lazy like you can't be bothered to interact and we are a forum which to me is all about communication

 

[BillN_33]

To be honest I'd much rather someone actually say thank you than press a button...
To me a thank you button is lazy like you can't be bothered to interact and we are a forum which to me is all about communication

But T, Cg_Girl, or Ms, whichever is PC, as Rob said, if you do you get accused of bumping your own thread, than another brigade march in and tell you that you are a (whatever),

"damned if you do damned if you don't", and I don't want to "divinely punished"

…… I rarely hit "Like" it's a kind of blancmange term …. but I often post Thanks ……. and I'm starting to be called an old "troll"

 

[Marc]

I very rarely thank people for comments but it's because I don't want to keep bumping my own threads back to the top. I suggested having a thanks button instead of like to get round this problem but the idea was shot down

What's wrong with bumping your threads back to the top?

 

[Marc]

But T, Cg_Girl, or Ms, whichever is PC, as Rob said, if you do you get accused of bumping your own thread, than another brigade march in and tell you that you are a (whatever),

"damned if you do damned if you don't", and I don't want to "divinely punished"

…… I rarely hit "Like" it's a kind of blancmange term …. but I often post Thanks ……. and I'm starting to be called an old "troll"

Really? Do you have an example of this?

 

[BillN_33]

What's wrong with bumping your threads back to the top?

now that's another story! ……… everything is explored in the "Bird Section" ……… ask Den

 

[Cg_Girl]

But T, Cg_Girl, or Ms, whichever is PC, as Rob said, if you do you get accused of bumping your own thread, than another brigade march in and tell you that you are a (whatever),

"damned if you do damned if you don't", and I don't want to "divinely punished"

…… I rarely hit "Like" it's a kind of blancmange term …. but I often post Thanks ……. and I'm starting to be called an old "troll"

T is perfectly cool!

Honestly there is nothing wrong with bumping your own thread, it's yours and I think far more would appreciate a thanks than nothing at all..

Certainly not troll like at all and I've not seen anyone use that term for bumping a thread in that manner

 

[Yv]

I have obviously missed something, but I don't think odd bumps to say thanks is such an issue. It doesn't have to be for every post you know, one post to thank 6 people isn't actually a problem funnily enough.

FWIW, I think a thanks button is a bad as a like and could quite easily live without either.

 

[Marc]

now that's another story! ……… everything is explored in the "Bird Section" ……… ask Den

I don't really want to get into that particular story but I suspect that is different to simply bumping your thread by thanking people for their comments.

 

[gramps]

we are a forum which to me is all about communication

Which requires a certain level of communication, including manners, respect and appreciation ... sadly forum life tends, with some, to mimic ordinary life but without the restraints.

 

[BillN_33]

Really? Do you have an example of this?

Not that i can think of immediately …….. but it must be in my mind as it struck a bell when Rob mentioned it in #94 …….. and I am a "newcomer" here so it must of been during the last 6 months

But I'm now "Wild & Free" so it effects me less or not at all

 

[Marc]

Not that i can think of immediately …….. but it must be in my mind as it struck a bell when Rob mentioned it in #94 …….. and I am a "newcomer" here so it must of been during the last 6 months

Well, it's certainly not the norm and it's definitely shouldn't be an excuse not to thank people for taking the time to comment on your photos. If anyone is having a pop at anyone for bumping their thread in this manner, it should be reported and it will be dealt with appropriately.

 

[NSNO]

What's wrong with bumping your threads back to the top?

If you keep bumping your thread it pushes others down that may not have many comments yet and it's open to abuse with people bumping for the sake of it to try and get more replies and keep their thread at the top. I prefer it if a thread gets comments and then fades away as new threads are posted, a thanks button allows for a more natural lifespan for posts

 

[Cg_Girl]

Which requires a certain level of communication, including manners, respect and appreciation ... sadly forum life tends, with some, to mimic ordinary life but without the restraints.

Sadly I tend to agree

 

[Tintin124]

My word it goes around and around and around.... all of these threads put people off posting in the bird section yes their is people who are less than tactful in their responses but what people need to understand is that you take what you want from a reply and junk the rest.

I got a little upset with @BRASH at first didn't know how to take him some of his comments were wrong some were right I used the right ones to try and improve my photography but once you get over that initial bump (with anyone) then you know where you stand and what you can use to your advantage and what you can forget.

Now I can't believe I'm saying this but what the heck... @BRASH (abrupt) comments made me think about what I was doing and I think made me better at it but same could be said for the tactful way @TimmyG has done. Not everyone can handle the abrupt natured ones but what they need to learn to do is ignore rather than be rilled this is not a issue for the replier.

So either post in critique section if you are willing to learn and try new ideas or if you want a ego boost post in for pleasure.

 

[Cg_Girl]

If you keep bumping your thread it pushes others down that may not have many comments yet and it's open to abuse with people bumping for the sake of it to try and get more replies and keep their thread at the top. I prefer it if a thread gets comments and then fades away as new threads are posted, a thanks button allows for a more natural lifespan for posts

I had no idea people felt like that about commenting, it's a shame to be honest

 

[Marc]

If you keep bumping your thread it pushes others down that may not have many comments yet and it's open to abuse with people bumping for the sake of it to try and get more replies and keep their thread at the top. I prefer it if a thread gets comments and then fades away as new threads are posted, a thanks button allows for a more natural lifespan for posts

I seriously doubt it will have that much effect and there's nothing wrong with getting additional comments by bumping in this way. It would be a shame if a thread only had one reply but was allowed to slide into oblivion when a post saying thanks could prompt further replies.

 

[Yv]

If you keep bumping your thread it pushes others down that may not have many comments yet and it's open to abuse with people bumping for the sake of it to try and get more replies and keep their thread at the top. I prefer it if a thread gets comments and then fades away as new threads are posted, a thanks button allows for a more natural lifespan for posts

Sorry, utter rubbish in the context of saying thankyou. Yes, some people will thank for every single post and that can, to some people, smack of deliberate bumping, but we have been running these forums for many years, we do understand how it works and a post or two to say thanks is NOT frowned upon, is not considered thread bumping and you know what, the thread will still fade away naturally and some level of human communication and thought has been allowed to happen. As Marc said,

Well, it's certainly not the norm and it's definitely shouldn't be an excuse not to thank people for taking the time to comment on your photos. If anyone is having a pop at anyone for bumping their thread in this manner, it should be reported and it will be dealt with appropriately.

 

[u8myufo]

I would like to hear from the "experts" what has gone wrong in their opinion and why rather than what is wrong with (an image)

Well I am by know means an expert Bill as Brash and many other will no doubt confirm.However the way I see it is like this. Acouple of years ago there was a variety of images being posted up in the bird section, I would say that 98% of those people were wanting to learn and improve on their images.There were a few members ( not a gang or experts ) who I would class as experienced bird togs in that section, Kaz and CT for example.Always happy to give crit, and even such things as the perch being to small or big for the subject would be mentioned.Nobody and I mean nobody ever took offence to those types of comments. As mentioned in the past,those members looking to improve would come back again and post more pictures,they would ask questions,they would get answers.They were in effect getting actively involved with everyone else, whilst learning at the same time.That has all but gone now, the majority of people just plonk a picture up, there is absolutely no information from the OP. Something gets posted up and there is something visibly wrong with it,rarely does anybody say for example.I managed to get this shot,I can see such and such is wrong with it, is there anything I could have done to perhaps improve it? Conversation between people has died If people who post their pictures up leave no questions or their own thoughts on it,how the hell are others supposed to know how to react? Oh hang on! It has been mentioned that we perhaps just look at it, don`t say anything if there is nothing good to say about it, and move on,well that is why imo it has got in the state it has.

This really brings me around to your second question. " And why rather than what is wrong with (an image) " If exif has been stripped like it is in a lot of instances people then have to go to the trouble of asking twenty questions to try and work out why something has gone wrong, and as you can appreciate, reason can be many. If the OP cannot be arsed to write a few words down to start with,people are then of the opinion why should I take the time out to help.You then get threads with no or very few replies,you then get people moaning that nobody gives any crit,you then get people moaning about the crit they have been given.We then get a thread started once every few months about it all.Everybody then all jumps in with their opinions on where it is all going wrong.They all make promises to be more helpful, they talk about it Bill but very few do anything about it.

So irrespect of how confusing it may seem to some about how obvious the critique prefix is, the answer to what has gone on in the bird section is pretty simple.People have forgot what this forum is called. TALK Photography,very few bother.

So mix all that up into a pot Bill, and you have the recipe for a section where pictures are posted,nobody gives a toss if they get any replies,but will moan straight away if somebody dare find fault with it.

 

[u8myufo]

Pete, its in here because whilst it is a forum wide issue, it creates far more arguments and dummy spitting in the Bird section than anywhere else, hence I guess why Rich posted in Talk Nature. .

I`m pretty sure I had posted it in the bird section YV but it got moved,I suppose to attract a slightly wider audience

 

[Yv]

I`m pretty sure I had posted it in the bird section YV but it got moved,I suppose to attract a slightly wider audience

More likely because its a discussion thread, not a photo sharing one Rich

 

[BillN_33]

Thanks, Rich, I also quite like what you said

I always try to add a bit of interest to anything I post, from what i know…….. so much so that the first "heated" discussion I got into was camo and camp …. I tried to start a thread about how birds camouflage themselves

It is good that this thread be kept going so that all can express what they think ……….p1ssing down here

Can "people" stop changing their avatars - it is really confusing

 

[Marc]

I`m pretty sure I had posted it in the bird section YV but it got moved,I suppose to attract a slightly wider audience

I think it was me who moved it but it would have been as Yvonne say, it's not a photo thread to a Talk section was a better place and Talk Nature was the most appropriate of those.

 

[u8myufo]

Trust me to chime in "Like" a broken record …… but as i have always said a "Thanks" button is better than a "Like" Button ……. OK they have different means in other parts of life ……. but when someone "Likes" a critical posts or that type of posting, (you know what I mean), it can start or perpetuate the "bad will" that is/was generated.

To say Thanks …… you have to add another posting …….. and just a one word posting can not look shallow …….. but if you hit a Thanks button, particular as part of that image posting ………. only expresses the "Thanks for posting"

Sorry Bill I do not agree with you on this,again to post #112 in this thread.Has it got to the stage where we can only just say "Thanks" and walk away? Where is the problem with keeping the chat going with a member? You get to strike up a friendship with people that way,you end up having a bit of friendly banter as opposed to a bashing.And that my friend is the biggest problem nowadays,one word replies time to move on,I must post another image up quick!!

 

[BillN_33]

Sorry Bill I do not agree with you on this,again to post #112 in this thread.Has it got to the stage where we can only just say "Thanks" and walk away? Where is the problem with keeping the chat going with a member? You get to strike up a friendship with people that way,you end up having a bit of friendly banter as opposed to a bashing.And that my friend is the biggest problem nowadays,one word replies time to move on,I must post another image up quick!!

No Rich, it just normal where some people, quite a lot, sometimes will just want to say thanks because they feel that they cannot really contribute crit for whatever reason, but they would still like to acknowledge the image or what has been said

 

[u8myufo]

Actually this thread is like a reminder of how the bird section once was but with a bird picture in the opening post. A variety of people discussing a subject,all giving their own thoughts on how it should be,no arguing just opinions.So why can it not be that way again? Instead of blaming each other we need to accept that we are all at fault in some small way.

 

[gramps]

I would like to hear from the "experts"

I would actually quite like to hear, who are the 'experts' and what makes them such.