Beginner What to do about camera?

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Hi, it's me again...I thought this needed a separate post.

As a beginner with longer term plans to go pro (in portraiture mainly), I am umming and anhing about whether to start with the best camera I can afford (e.g. Canon 5d III) or whether this will be too advanced for my current capabilities (!) and should opt for a cheaper, perhaps more basic model.

Wheat would you recommend doing? I'd hate to buy basic/cheaper then regret it but don't want to be struggling with an expensive piece of equipment I'm not ready for.

Many thanks for any advice...
Breton
 
I would certainly recommend starting slightly lower. That way you don't have the risk of finding out that you're not enjoying it and being stuck with an expensive piece of kit.

Personally I started off using my dad's Canon EOS 450D and that was a fantastic starting camera. If you want to start, slightly more advanced - I recommend the xxD series or potentially the first 7D if you can pick it up second hand. There's also no better lens to start with (ESPECIALLY portraiture) than the nifty fifty. (50mm f/1.8). It's EXTREMELY good quality, sharp, lovely bokeh, lightweight and cheap.

Best of luck!
 
Hi, it's me again...I thought this needed a separate post.

As a beginner with longer term plans to go pro (in portraiture mainly), I am umming and anhing about whether to start with the best camera I can afford (e.g. Canon 5d III) or whether this will be too advanced for my current capabilities (!) and should opt for a cheaper, perhaps more basic model.

Wheat would you recommend doing? I'd hate to buy basic/cheaper then regret it but don't want to be struggling with an expensive piece of equipment I'm not ready for.

Many thanks for any advice...
Breton
It's an oft misunderstood fact by newbies.

Pro spec cameras generally gave 'less' options than entry level cameras.

I've no idea what your skill level is, but if this is a first camera, just realise it's that the first. In 5 years time you'll remember it fondly, but it'll just be one of the cameras you own or have owned.

I know I'm old and I've been at it 30 years, but I've had dozens of cameras and currently have 6 (plus others I'd consider toys).

But I'd like to add.
Beginners think it's about cameras
Enthusiasts think it's about lenses
Photographers know it's about light.

The funniest (though not for the poster) thread I've seen here was a bloke who bought a D810 brand new, he was planning to shoot professional product shots, he then asked about the cheapest lens he could possibly use and went on to explain he had no budget for lighting and the space he'd already signed a lease on simply wasn't big enough for his needs.

The only way you'll understand what gear you need for what you want to shoot is by getting out and shooting, develop your style and hone your skills - the gear will follow.

For what it's worth, I'd suggest a 2nd hand mid range dslr and decent quality fast zoom to start. Save your huge capital till you know what you need. Even after 20 years of serious shooting I really thought I was a 'natural light' specialist, and thought I could use that as my USP, when I realised that the market was full of newbies who described themselves the same because they were scared of flash, I dusted off my old lighting skills and gave myself a new marketing angle.
 
I will add though.

Proposing that you are going to be a professional photographer before you've picked up a camera makes as much sense as telling us you're going to be a professional footballer and you haven't even played at Sunday league level.

And if you think that's an exaggeration. If your town has a league football team, that's 20 full time pro's, I'll bet there's not 20 full time photographers.
 
You can't tell what will be the best camera for you until you've gained enough experience to have formed realistic ambitions and discovered what kinds of photography you definitely don't want to get into. No point in buying expensive features you'll never want to use along with compromises on what turns out to be your most loved kind of photography. There's no such thing as the best camera for everything.
 
This sounds oh-so familiar.... especially the 'ambition' to go-pro.... had a quick look, and gender is declared female... and the "Ah!" sigh happened.
I don't want to be patronising.. but lsten to Phil, it IS like the lads kicking a coke can about the play-ground, talking about what boots they should have for when they are in the Premier league.
In days of yore, when cameras only took film, and were 'oh so complicated' and expensive, only 'Dad' ever touched it, photography was a significantly male preserve.
(and in the 1920's my School teacher Gt Gran with a 1/4 plate camera, sending my grandmother out to find the 'hedge eggs' she couldn't use for baking to mix up emulsion in her kitchen to take photo's on the Sunday Picnic WAS the very very rare exception t the rule!)
When cartridge loading point and press instamatics came along n the 60's & 70's co-ncidet with an upscaled women's lib, it did do a lot to put cameras into the hands of women, which was often ridiculed as 'point and press' lady-photo, not 'real' photography. Ever more automated electronics into the 80's and 90's, making 'enthusiast' cameras so much more user freindl, brought so many more women weened on pont & press cartridge cameras into the persuit (as well, as blokes too, it has to be said).. and a trend that s still with us, ad exagerated by the camera phone, and instagram, where, the woman, till a century on is more often the more usual are giver for chldren, starts taking baby snaps, with phone, and adding pretty 'effect filters' that often give them a professional 'studio look'.. are encouraged to take it further, culminatng n a Digital SLR... and a social media archive fll of water marked kiddie pcs, and suggestion that they 'specialist' in 'situational photography', 'event photography' and 'portraiture'..... and 'likes' o social media and comments suggesting "That's oh so good you should be a pro'.....

Phil pointed out how few genuinely 'professional' photographer's there are, compared to 'professional' footballers.... and even of those, how many 'professional' footballers, are SO far from the premier legue! Most are plasters or car salesman, from the amateurs, paid a pound a game, that doesn't even cover their expenses, let alone a living wage!
Continuing the analogy to photography, it follows, even of the very very few pro's, not a awful lot will make a real living wage from it, and of those that might, number that are able to 'specialist' in any way, are few; most will be taking whatever jobs come along, from weddings, to double glazing brochures, to school photo's, and everythig and anything in and around; And those that might one have supported a 'family portrat' studio, as a large bit of their business? Are closing down thier studio's in droves, in the face of the 'Oh your so good you should be a pro', mum, with a fancy camera and an instagram filter in the play-ground.

Which s a long way round way of suggesting that there is a BIG gulf between the ambition to go-pro and the reality... and even if you did make that leap, the 'indulgence' of amateur photography being able to take photo's of the subjects you preffer, is something that HAS to give, you have to take photo's of whatever flk will pay for, whether you like it or not, and artstic merit and interpretation is often NT something they are particularly interested about, or prepared to pay you to indulge in...

PICK what suits the job you have at hand here and now, that sits your purse as much as anything else.

More 'pro grade' cameras have been bought over the years by amateurs indulging thier hobby than have ever been bought by real pro's. And to illustrate that idea, I was once privy to a conversation between a indulgent amateur, waving £1000's of pounds worth of Hassablad, he had on approval for the week-end, trying to ask advice of local 'pro' who stunned him when he sluffed him off, saying he hadn't got a clue, he didn't own one and had never used one, and admitting to using a 'cheap' Bronica, explained "Yup, well, I have to make a living from the photo's I take, every penny I spend on a bit of kit I dont really need or a brand name I can live without is money that could have gone to pay my mortgage" Pros DONT buy more camera than they need, or waste money on fancy brand names or gadgets and gee-gaws; they cant afford to! They are pro's they need to make a living, if something cant pay its way, they cant afford it.

Which is to add to Phils comment that "Beginners think it's about cameras; Enthusiasts think it's about lenses; Photographers know it's about light." that Pro's now its about the MONEY, and a way of thinking, which is NOT photographic, that is not 'artistic' but commercial, like an accountant, the bottom line is where it starts, if you cant get over the bottom line, the rest don't matter....

Which is to suggest the very question, implies a way of looking at your photography that exemplifies that 'gulf' between amateur indulgence and professional earning IS huge and as yet, you don't even recognize there is one....... let alone have got to a place you might be about to try cross it! (And that's not sexist, just as many men are just as guilty; but, the opportunity for Instagram kiddy shots by mums HAS made it more endemic among them)

If you really want to be a pro, Start to THNNK like a pro... the bottom line counts. Using that aspiration, to be a pro, to justify indulgence amateur photography and ignore the bottom line of whether that purchase can in any way, pay for itself, here, now in the immediate let alone a potential, may never happen imaginary future, is NOT going to help you either, take better photo's, nor spend money prudently, nor make that leap to beig a real pro any easier, actually the converse; it's perpetuating the indulgence of hobby photography.

Think about it. You dont need our advice; you need a camera! You need apocket calculator! How much does camera cost? How much will pictures sell for? What other expenses will there be to take those saleable photo's? After coverng costs, how many paid for photo's will you have to sell to pay for this camera? Do yo actually stad a better than 50/50 chance of taking AND selling that many photo's with it n the next twelve months?

Like I said, after its more even than Phl's ametuers thnink its about the camera, enthusiasts about the lens, photographers about the light.... the Pro's know its about PAYING THE BILLS... This camera going to pay bills, or make them? THAT's the bottom line. What we think wont change that or tell you what to do, and IF there is one single step, towards fullfilling your 'pro' ambitions, THAT is it starting to think like one, and reaching for the pocket calculator, before reaching for the camera.
 
I started off with a Canon 400D and kit lens but it really didn't inspire me all that much. The camera and lens that really got me into photography was the full frame Canon 5D Classic (Mark i) with it's glorious film like photos and the Canon 85mm 1.8 lens.

You can get these in good condition used from MPB (you may be able to find them cheaper if you shop around) and for portraits it would be a very cheap way entrance to photography whilst still returning excellent image quality. Spend a £100 more and you can double the pixels and get better low light performance with a 5D Mkii but it won't be in very good condition unless you are willing to spend even more. I personally prefer primes to zoom lenses as you can get serious sharpenss for less money, they tend to be lighter, faster and force me to be more creative with my positioning and composition, but that's just my own personal preference.

- Canon 5D for £294 (https://www.mpb.com/en-uk/used-equi...-digital-slr-cameras/canon-eos-5d/sku-649522/)
- Canon 85mm f/1.8 £219 (https://www.mpb.com/en-uk/used-equi...it-lenses/canon-ef-85mm-f-1-8-usm/sku-650226/)

Plus some memory cards and editing software for the computer.

This hardware would easily suffice for natural light portraits leaving only your skill and creativity as the remaining hurdle.

However, if you want to progress to more advanced portaits combining natural light and flash then flashguns are a good entry point along with reflectors, flashgun stand etc. I've got the Nissin Commander kit which is brilliant. Ultimately, if you are looking to do studio protraits then it's going to be proper studio flashes and perhaps with more difficulty a studio. You can always hire a studio though.

- Nissin NI-HDI702S Commander Kit (Nissin Di700A with Commander Air wireless) brand new for £255 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nissin-NI-...488815173&sr=8-1&keywords=nissin+di700a+canon)
 
This sounds oh-so familiar.... especially the 'ambition' to go-pro.... had a quick look, and gender is declared female... and the "Ah!" sigh happened.
You should be ashamed of yourself. I would question the point of trying to sound helpful if you're going to demean and patronise the OP with your first sentence.
 
I've used a Canon 300D, 350D, 400D, 5D, 5DII and have just upgraded to a Canon 5DIII. My advice would be to spend around maximum 30% of your budget on a camera and the rest on lenses, lighting, backgrounds, software and a tripod. There are many older Canon bodies available at very reasonable prices that will still give excellent results if used with good lenses and above all good lighting. I would second Graham's suggestion of the Canon 5DMkI to start out with. As you learn to use your equipment, you will figure out what is holding you back (if anything) and you can then make an informed decision whether an upgrade to a 5DII, 6D, 5DIII, or 5DIV makes sense. By that time, second hand prices for these later generation bodies will have come down in price as well.
 
Hi, it's me again...I thought this needed a separate post.

As a beginner with longer term plans to go pro (in portraiture mainly), I am umming and anhing about whether to start with the best camera I can afford (e.g. Canon 5d III) or whether this will be too advanced for my current capabilities (!) and should opt for a cheaper, perhaps more basic model.

Wheat would you recommend doing? I'd hate to buy basic/cheaper then regret it but don't want to be struggling with an expensive piece of equipment I'm not ready for.

Many thanks for any advice...
Breton

What have you already got? In what way is it limiting you?
I'd suggest sticking with that until you understand why you're upgrading.
 
Wise words indeed! ;)

It's an oft misunderstood fact by newbies.

Pro spec cameras generally gave 'less' options than entry level cameras.

I've no idea what your skill level is, but if this is a first camera, just realise it's that the first. In 5 years time you'll remember it fondly, but it'll just be one of the cameras you own or have owned.

I know I'm old and I've been at it 30 years, but I've had dozens of cameras and currently have 6 (plus others I'd consider toys).

But I'd like to add.
Beginners think it's about cameras
Enthusiasts think it's about lenses
Photographers know it's about light.

The funniest (though not for the poster) thread I've seen here was a bloke who bought a D810 brand new, he was planning to shoot professional product shots, he then asked about the cheapest lens he could possibly use and went on to explain he had no budget for lighting and the space he'd already signed a lease on simply wasn't big enough for his needs.

The only way you'll understand what gear you need for what you want to shoot is by getting out and shooting, develop your style and hone your skills - the gear will follow.

For what it's worth, I'd suggest a 2nd hand mid range dslr and decent quality fast zoom to start. Save your huge capital till you know what you need. Even after 20 years of serious shooting I really thought I was a 'natural light' specialist, and thought I could use that as my USP, when I realised that the market was full of newbies who described themselves the same because they were scared of flash, I dusted off my old lighting skills and gave myself a new marketing angle.
 
Wheat would you recommend doing? I'd hate to buy basic/cheaper then regret it but don't want to be struggling with an expensive piece of equipment I'm not ready for.
Buying expensive gear you don't *NEED* is a waste of money no matter how you look at it...
Since you don't know what you need right now, buy basic kit to get started. (If you did know what you needed, you wouldn't be asking this question).
 
Hello,

Thank you to all of you for taking the time to answer my question about the camera and for the recommendations given which I'll enjoy looking into further. I appreciate the mention of other equipment gman, Maarten and Boznac.

Phil - Interesting quote re: beginners/enthusiast/photographer. I can't speak for all beginners, but as a relative beginner I can't start the type of photography I want to do without a better camera than my current one...That said, I imagine taking good portrait photography and making it as a professional isn't all about lighting either? Surely there are plenty of other factors that come into play? Camera, lens, lighting, technical expertise, creativity, understanding of the market, having a decent business plan, rapport with clients, building a reputation - just for starters. I'm not sure of your motivation for adding your football analogy but as you said, you don't know my skills. I'm sure beginners on this forum are all ages and stages and I'm fairly sure our definition of "pro" is broad and varied too.

Teflon Mike - I almost fled this forum at your opening paragraph but forced myself to keep reading. For the record though, I haven't been encouraged into the world of photography by sharing baby photos on an instagram account! And for me, if this was all about the money or the bottom line I'd be retraining as an accountant.

Stewart - thanks.
 
I can't speak for all beginners, but as a relative beginner I can't start the type of photography I want to do without a better camera than my current one...That said, I imagine taking good portrait photography and making it as a professional isn't all about lighting either? Surely there are plenty of other factors that come into play? Camera, lens, lighting, technical expertise, creativity, understanding of the market, having a decent business plan, rapport with clients, building a reputation - just for starters.
Sorry but you should listen to people like Phil ... they do know photography and the business and sometimes you need to be realistic even if its harsh. As you say he doesn't know your experience but there is no point sugar coating thing. Perhaps (if you are really looking for constructive advice) you should tell us about your experience and perhaps post some photos you have taken. Anyhow too often people think having a "pro" camera means they are good enough to charge for their photography. If thats your thinking (which I'm not saying it is) you are on course to be disappointed. I suspect the motivation for the football analogy was for you to take a step back and consider thing.

You are also correct that making it as a professional isn't all about lighting ... but taking a good photograph IS all about the lighting (and attention to details I would add). Only once you are taking good photos do you need to worry about aspects such as "understanding of the market, having a decent business plan, rapport with clients, building a reputation".

You don't need a better camera to take better photos ... you need practice (and yes things like creativity). A better camera will allow you to be more versatile and will make the process easier ... but you can take a "professional standard" portrait with an iPhone and £10 Ikea lamp (https://petapixel.com/2013/03/18/ta...oking-portrait-with-an-iphone-and-an-e8-lamp/).

PS. People here are generally helpful and please don't feel downhearted ... (most) criticism is given with the intention of being helpful and people aren't trying to put you down. Some comments will be more cutting ... thats the nature of the internet sadly. The best way to learn and improve is to take photos and get people to comment ... people here will do this. Sometimes you might not agree with their comments, but this is "art" and no one has the absolute truth. Listen and hopefully you will learn thing.

As for your initial question ... in terms of investment then lenses are probably a better investment ... spending £2,000 or so on a camera and having only £500 for lenses is unwise. A better spend of £400 on a second hand 5D MkII and having £2100 to spend on lenses as you find the creative need for them would be much wiser. If you are finding your way / as a beginner: you would be better looking at something like a 24-105 than considering primes such as 85mm. Yes the quality is slightly less (and you won't have the wide open out of focus effect so readily), but you are looking to find your creative style and its easy to let a prime dictate your style where as you should be choosing your lenses based on your style as it develops. Having said all that - you need to get out and look at some cameras and find what suits you ... see how they feel in your hand, how the controls fall to use; we're all different in how things feel to us ergonomically - the Canon 5D for example is quite a large camera.
 
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There are two cheap cameras now, that I can recommend from experience, and which will cost you peanuts compared to their capability: The canon 5 mk I (classic) and the Fuji S5 pro. Their iso capability may be junk compared to newer cameras, but pair them with an 85mm of your choice and with a good flash and you will have all the tools you need. There is nothing more modern that they can't equal in good light.
 
Hi, I don't have the experience that many of those posting here do - I'm definitely in the 'Enthusiast' category rather than pro (I have no illusions about the fact that I'd be unlikely to earn anywhere near as much as a photographer as I do from my regular job), but have been shooting with a DSLR for about 10 years, so thought it worth just adding my take on what has been said.

Phil is spot on when he says that it's all about the light - and it doesn't matter if it's natural light or flash, getting the 'right' light will be the difference between an OK shot and a great one.

However, cameras and lenses also play their part

Moving from an entry level to a 'pro' level camera will both make things easier and more complicated for you - easier as it will have quicker access to the controls you need - more complicated as it will need you to know how to use those controls to get the best from it!

More expensive lenses will improve the possible image quality, particularly as conditions get more challenging, but the cost increases a lot more than the improvement in potential, so you need to be able to exploit that potential to make the price worth it (particularly if it's a business).

As others have alluded to, your best move is probably to get a relatively inexpensive camera, combine it with the standard 'kit' lens and spend some time getting to know the basic technicalities - so that when you later do want to look at higher spec kit you understand why you might need / want it, and the advantages that spending the additional cash will bring.

If you do end up being 'serious' about photography, the money you spend now will be repaid by avoiding expensive mistakes, and if you don't you won't have wasted a lot on gear you don't use.

The final point would be don't limit yourself to thinking only a Canon / Nikon DSLR will do - the smaller, lighter cameras such as Micro 4/3 (Olympus, Panasonic) or 'Mirrorless' cameras such as Sony E Mount are all capable of producing excellent images.
 
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Thanks Eloise. I'm not dismissing Phil's feedback, and can handle harsh - I'm just not keen on assumptions or sweeping statements. I'm grateful for his advice on the importance of lighting vs camera.

Regarding my experience, I'm 43 and have loved taking photos of whatever took my fancy since I got my first camera age 18 (Olympus Trip I think?). About 8 years ago I was a member of an amateur photography club and won a photography competition judged by a BBC photographer of the year winner who told me I had a natural sense for composition but that's about as much as I've shared publicly so feedback has been limited! Whilst I appreciate what you're saying about taking professional photos with a phone (it's why I chose my Samsung phone) and an ikea lamp I think a prospective client would worry if that's what I took out in a shoot. My intentions are to undertake some online training combined with plenty of self-teaching and practice and see where this takes my amateur ability/experience over the next twelve months or so. Whilst I'd love to make a living continuing to take photos of whatever I fancy, I've narrowed it down it my favourite photographic subject - people.

Thanks Faldrax and walls - just saw your posts - thanks for your suggestions. I'll check them out.
 
Whilst I appreciate what you're saying about taking professional photos with a phone (it's why I chose my Samsung phone) and an ikea lamp I think a prospective client would worry if that's what I took out in a shoot.
My intention wasn't to say that you should be taking professional photos with a phone, the intention was that the equipment (whist it is important) is minor compared with lighting and your own skills.

As for recommendations about a camera... if you currently have basically no camera; then you can do far worse (IMO) than buying a entry level Nikon D3x00 or Canon 1200D (options also exist from Olympus / Panasonic, Pentax and Sony) with its standard kit lens and just get out there taking photos. Get your friends and family around and start experimenting with taking their portraits (if thats what you enjoy taking pictures of). Experiment, take photos and learn!
 
oh dear i can see this ending in tears ,ms breton top you have been given sound advice by the likes of phil and others ,but by your defensive replies it sounds like you already know what your going to buy and make a living from .so what puzzles me is why ask in the first place . on here and other forums the ones that have spent the family silver money on ever more expensive gear try to help newbies not to do the same and quiet often in gets thrown back in our/there faces .

why not simply go back to your camera club and ask there views ,you might even find someone selling a bit of used gear cheap after they they have given up on the dream of making a living from photography .

another word of advice take it or leave it is the only way to get rich from photography is to offer online training courses to mugs who think there going to earn a living from photography .think about it girlie its cheaper to learn from u.tube especially as you won a photo competition and have a great eye for composition to .good luck as i think your gonna need it lots of it .:exit::exit::exit:
 
Thanks Eloise - and for the additional info you put on your first reply after I'd replied.

Black Fox - Er no, it takes a bit more than that to get my tissues out. As Eloise hinted, the internet gives a platform to all sorts of morons.
 
Lighting is important but it's the subject that will earn you money. Creative ideas and having a natural flair with people will show in the subjects of your photographs. It doesn't matter how technically perfect a photo is if the subject is boring.

Are you good with people? It's critical if you want exceptional results.
 
another word of advice take it or leave it is the only way to get rich from photography is to offer online training courses to mugs who think there going to earn a living from photography

Ah, nice to know that I'm a mug. I'm not going to get rich but I certainly make a living.



.think about it girlie its cheaper to learn from u.tube especially as you won a photo competition and have a great eye for composition to .good luck as i think your gonna need it lots of it .:exit::exit::exit:


...and that attitude speaks volumes.



IMO, if you can afford a decent camera, why not buy one. Loads of businesses have been set up by people with good sales skills who learnt photography as a product to sell.
As long as you become proficient and knowledgeable before selling to the public, I don't see a problem with it.

It's the idiots who pick up a camera and think that they can trade before they get off the green button that are the problem.

Oh and those that give their work away for gratis or 'exposure'.
 
Hello,

Thank you to all of you for taking the time to answer my question about the camera and for the recommendations given which I'll enjoy looking into further. I appreciate the mention of other equipment gman, Maarten and Boznac.

Phil - Interesting quote re: beginners/enthusiast/photographer. I can't speak for all beginners, but as a relative beginner I can't start the type of photography I want to do without a better camera than my current one...That said, I imagine taking good portrait photography and making it as a professional isn't all about lighting either? Surely there are plenty of other factors that come into play? Camera, lens, lighting, technical expertise, creativity, understanding of the market, having a decent business plan, rapport with clients, building a reputation - just for starters. I'm not sure of your motivation for adding your football analogy but as you said, you don't know my skills. I'm sure beginners on this forum are all ages and stages and I'm fairly sure our definition of "pro" is broad and varied too.

Teflon Mike - I almost fled this forum at your opening paragraph but forced myself to keep reading. For the record though, I haven't been encouraged into the world of photography by sharing baby photos on an instagram account! And for me, if this was all about the money or the bottom line I'd be retraining as an accountant.

Stewart - thanks.
'Making it as a professional' is about 10% about photography.

But that 10% of what it takes to be a professional requires 100% knowledge of your chosen subject and required skills.

So it's not all about gear and technique, but you need solid gear and technique.

I've got stuff in my portfolio shot on a kit lens, shot in a 300d and shot lit with an IKEA lamp too. There's also an interesting blog post on my site about shooting with a phone.

You'll note I made no assumptions about your skill level. But FWIW, if you've never picked up a proper camera and used it in anger, I'll stick to my point regarding your state of preparation for a change of career.

But that's not a negative, I'm not saying 'don't do it' I'm saying 'be realistic', all those pro footballers, musicians and photographers started with a dream, and somewhere between the dream and reality is 10,000 hrs of practice and training. Loads of people do it every year, it's great fun too.

Back to the photography;

Only in some specialist fields is the gear really important. A 5 year old mid range DSLR and fast std zoom will yield awesome results if you know how to use it. A brand new 5dIV and 85 1.2L will give a slightly better image for 8x the cost, but again, only if you know how to use it.

But point any of that kit at a badly lit subject and you get a s*** photo.

If you're not sure about the importance of light (I never said lighting!); post a link to your 5 favourite portraits, and we can reverse engineer the technical aspects and you'll see how important the light is. More importantly though, is your relationship with the subject.

When you've got the photography nailed, and you want some help on the business aspects (the 90%), post in the relevant section, there's some really good advice there from talented business people (I'm not one of them btw).
 
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Thanks Eloise - and for the additional info you put on your first reply after I'd replied.

Black Fox - Er no, it takes a bit more than that to get my tissues out. As Eloise hinted, the internet gives a platform to all sorts of morons.

Breton Top, you appear to be soliciting praise for a prospect of a career. You have been given great advice on this forum and have now sunk to the depths of called an esteemed member a moron. I think for the good of this terrific forum an apology to Black Fox, and Phil would be in order.
 
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Only in some specialist fields is the gear really important. A 5 year old mid range DSLR and fast std zoom will yield awesome results if you know how to use it.

Listen to Phil!!

Look, if you want to spend lots of money on a fancy camera then go for it, but you really, really don't need to. One of the very best photographers I know uses this £200 setup..
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Canon-EOS...638224?hash=item4b13143390:g:rtoAAOSwTM5Yu~VS

He's probably spent the same again on lighting gear, though he does DIY a fair bit.

fwiw you should also budget for a PC, decent monitor, calibrator, spare batteries, memory cards, backup systems, bags, software and training.
 
There may well be morons on forums (i may well be one of them), but there's no point in asking for advice from well established, money making photographers and then completely dismissing it.
 
ms breton top perhaps if you posted some of your photos in this thread we could establish a better judgement of what your needs are .so often on hobby forums we get people asking advice with us having no real idea of there capabilities
 
@the black fox - Perhaps if you apologised for this, the OP might take you seriously. I don't think that's a nice way to behave to a new member of the forum.
think about it girlie its cheaper to learn from u.tube especially as you won a photo competition and have a great eye for composition to .good luck as i think your gonna need it lots of it.
 
Just for the record, if you read it properly, it seems that the OP was implying Jeff (the black fox) was the moron!

Whereas Phil knows lots about lighting, don't discount Jeff as he knows a hell of a lot about taking really good wildlife photos.

He probably just had an off-day :D
 
You should never consider Phil V a Moron, he gives the (in my opinion) best advice here. Always look forward to seeing him on any Thread.

In Fact why not start a "Phil V Appreciation" Thread.
Breton Top, you appear to be soliciting praise for a prospect of a career. You have been given great advice on this forum and have now sunk to the depths of called an esteemed member a moron. I think for the good of this terrific forum an apology to Black Fox, and Phil would be in order.
There may well be morons on forums (i may well be one of them), but there's no point in asking for advice from well established, money making photographers and then completely dismissing it.


Try reading the thread properly before chipping off. She wasn't referring to Phil.

And if you think Black Fox deserves an apology, then you are as bad as he is.
 
I can see it's all gone horribly wrong here. And it seems that the main cause of this was because I questioned some of Phil's advice. I believe you have to question and seek clarity otherwise you don't learn and make mistakes. I've learned (in all aspects of life) as much from newbies with good intuition as I have from those more experienced. If Phil's fans and foot soldiers cannot see that I haven't dismissed his advice then that is their problem and not mine.

Phil - despite what has been suggested on here, thank you for generously providing further information in your post last night. It's gratefully received.

As for the moron comment, that had nothing to do with Phil. Rather that was directed at anyone who has to check my gender before deciding how to respond (Teflon Mike) or call me girlie and expect tears (Black Fox). Anyone who posts such comments is surely big, old and ugly enough to expect a retort.

A further thanks to all of you who have simply answered my original question.
 
@Breton Top , you're getting a boisterous - and frankly rude - reception in part because we see a surprising number of folk here who turn up with basically no experience and announce their intention to be a professional portrait photographer. If you stick around then (a) it will calm down and (b) there is an enormous amount of good advice to be had. It won't always be welcome but 90% of it will be useful.
 
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Try reading the thread properly before chipping off. She wasn't referring to Phil.

And if you think Black Fox deserves an apology, then you are as bad as he is.
I never mentioned this forum or @Phil V or anyone in particular.
I was just pointing out that if advice is being asked for then you should listen to it and i have not said anybody deserves an apology.
 
Sadly @Breton Top this is what happens time and again. It's certainly not the first time I've seen that type of condescending reply from Teflon Mike, so don't take it personally.
A small minority feel that they've earned their stripes through blood, sweat and film emulsion and see everyone else as a wanna-be with no right to do anything.
Some people could do with remembering that everyone has to start somewhere, even they were a beginner once.

Try to stick with it and sort the wheat from the chaff.
There's a huge amount of good advice and helpful discussions on this forum, perhaps even look back through older threads for similar subjects.
Also spend time checking out some of the superb work done by photographers on here. Nothing wrong with looking at other people's images for inspiration.

Something else to add, that even if you get technically proficient quickly, it can take quite a while to settle on the type and style of photography you enjoy and want to do and this may impact the process of becoming a full time photographer.
I've been using DSLRs for around 10yrs and film cameras on and off before that, but even though it took a couple of years to become proficient, I still haven't found one thing I want to photograph more than any other.
Part of the reason is that I'm not under pressure to make money from photography, so I do what I want.

The other reason for saying that is so that you don't just go out an buy the ultimate "portrait setup" before you've had a chance to learn and try out things. A Canon 5D4 and an 85mm f1.2L might be considered to be the best portrait setup, but it's also rather limiting and very expensive.
If you want a crop frame camera, you could go for:
Canon 70D, £500ish
Canon 17-55 f2.8 £400 (great general purpose lens)
Canon 50mm f1.8 STM £80 (great prime lens)
Canon 85mm f1.8 £200ish
This will give you a good setup for general work and the two primes will be good for portraits.
If you are happy to go full frame, but on a budget:
Canon 5D2 £4-500 or
Canon 6D £7-800ish secondhand
Canon 24-105 f4L £400 - good general purpose zoom
Canon 50mm f1.8 £80
Canon 85mm f1.8 £200

With this second option, you can just upgrade the body and keep all the lenses, WHEN you find the body is a limiting factor.

It's definitely worth getting out and getting shooting. Shoot, edit, review your work (post here if you want to), work out what to improve, shoot more.....etc.
If you already have a camera, even if it's not the one you aspire to own, get out and make it work for you, using those composition skills ;)
 
But I'd like to add.
Beginners think it's about cameras
Enthusiasts think it's about lenses
Photographers know it's about light.

I like that....good advice. Not easy advice to take when starting out as people, well I know I did, wanted 'stuff'.

The light thing, yeah that's gets more true for me every day.

Cheers.
 
yep i,m big thats a understatement ,yep i'm ugly eye of the beholder i suppose ,and definitely old and grumpy . so yep i can take it on my shoulders .but we still have to see some of your work and that would really help with advise
 
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