What would you do?

Photodiva

Photodiva

Foot elevated on the stool
Messages
4,134
Name
Carol
Edit My Images
Yes
Opinions, please
Contacted via the club by Football Focus Mag.
they want images, "offering credit".
I emailed back saying "I can't eat credits, payment would be nicer".
Would you given 'em for free???
 
Massive no, im suprised you needed to ask Carol.

On the other hand, offer 1 for free with credits and see if it drives traffic to your website and incrases sales (if you are allowed to sell) if not then back to NO.

I suppose you need to weigh up what you can benefit from it so i suppose the stock answer of No could actually be a maybe.
 
Photodiva said:
Opinions, please
Contacted via the club by Football Focus Mag.
they want images, "offering credit".
I emailed back saying "I can't eat credits, payment would be nicer".
Would you given 'em for free???
Click to expand...



The answer is: it depends upon:

Size of the club;
why you took the pictures
whether sports photography is how you make your living
your relationship with the club

etc etc.
 
simonw said:
The answer is: it depends upon:

Size of the club;
why you took the pictures
whether sports photography is how you make your living
your relationship with the club

etc etc.
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To my mind all of these are completely immaterial. For the good of the industry, the answer should be NO.
 
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No, regardless of the circumstances. They'll be making profit from you, so they should at least have the decency to allow you to make some profit as well.
 
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Photodiva said:
I emailed back saying "I can't eat credits, payment would be nicer".
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First I would never reply with a line like that.

I would ask the club to direct the magazine to me rather than through them.. This then leaves the club out of the picture and less awkwardness for you the photogrpaher and your relationship with the club

You then ask the magzine there budget and if none you respectfully reply stating you cant help on this occasion but would be happy to help with anything in the future..

I believe this is a non league club.. I would have no problems at all giving the club free pictures.. the program editor free pictures.. the blah blah... But a commercial magazine... NOPE
 
KIPAX said:
First I would never reply with a line like that.

I would ask the club to direct the magazine to me rather than through them.. This then leaves the club out of the picture and less awkwardness for you the photogrpaher and your relationship with the club

You then ask the magzine there budget and if none you respectfully reply stating you cant help on this occasion but would be happy to help with anything in the future..

I believe this is a non league club.. I would have no problems at all giving the club free pictures.. the program editor free pictures.. the blah blah... But a commercial magazine... NOPE
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I have to admit, I do agree with you there Tony, you never know what compromise you might be able to reach. Whilst at a Blyth Spartans game just shooting for myself I got approached by a journalist from the local paper covering the away team. He initially did the typical 'credit and free paper' approach. I declined politely and said I'd need payment to which he got on the phone to his editor (I presume) and informed him that 'unfortunately(!)' the photographer wanted payment. He came back with an offer which I accepted, and it was honoured when invoiced. If nothing else, you've enganged in proper dialogue, become known to them properly in the off chance they might ask another time and maybe they'll even learn a lesson that not everyone is happy with just a credit.
 
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Thanks, guys. They asked last year, and I declined if they weren't going to recompense. I am sure the club would like to co-operate, and so would I but I really don't want to work for nothing. You're probably right, Tony. Not the best response, but hey ho. I've never seen a Football Focus magazine on sale anywhere, is it popular?
 
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Photodiva said:
Thanks, guys. They asked last year, and I declined if they weren't going to recompense. I am sure the club would like to co-operate, and so would I but I really don't want to work for nothing. You're probably right, Tony. Not the best response, but hey ho. I've never seen a Football Focus magazine on sale anywhere, is it popular?
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Google it - you can see the current edition on line
 
Yeah, I've seen it online - but it is a 'real' magazine??
 
I was in the same situation with this mag last year whilst I was photographer for a non league club. They refused to pay point blank,stating that all other photographers gave them for nothing.

I pointed out did the large photo agencies 'give' them for print,they chose not to answer.

The then chairman of the club,got involved as his club was losing out on publicity,reluctenly I send a few pix of the manager ten mins before deadline(Friday 5.00)

Un/fortunatley,the manager got the sack the following day,so a tad of karma come my way as they didn't use them.

Not the answer you would probably like,but they won't pay that's for sure.
 
So they complain on PP about this then in the "popular posts" box on the right they tell people how to make a giant image from a small one, supposedly from a mobile, but would work on a 6x4 print from a photographer!!!!!!
 
simonw said:
The world changes, no one has a guarantee of a job or that their particular skills won't be overtaken by technology or sociatal changes. Its always been like that.
Photographers are no exception.
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Unfortunately it's exactly that attitude that a large number of publications are adopting and is potentially the death knell for quality press and sports photography.

No one wants a job guarantee, just fair pay for for our work.

Btw the way, you can't replace artistic interpretation, knowledge or skill with technology.
 
DemiLion said:
Btw the way, you can't replace artistic interpretation, knowledge or skill with technology.
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I didn't say you could, but history is full of trades that have died because the world has moved on.

Paid photogrpahy faces that challenge and will have to evolve if it is to survive.
 
simonw said:
I didn't say you could, but history is full of trades that have died because the world has moved on.

Paid photogrpahy faces that challenge and will have to evolve if it is to survive.
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This is utter idiocy though, we aren't talking about a fans website or a publication run off from some guys computer at his own expense.

We are talking about a Commercial enterprise that is charging for its product.

The magazine retails for £4.00 each issue to the consumer, their rate card is "unavailable" conveniently but their sister publications Cricket Club have theirs available.

A 1/8 page advert for 1 issue in Cricket Club is £545 rising to £3495 for a 1 issue Double Page Spread.

This is an organisation that can afford to pay for photography.

If we were talking about a charity then things would be very different. I offer my services to 3 charities who otherwise would not be able to afford photography for their websites and promotional materials, it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling...but this is not one of those cases.

I agree that photography needs to adapt to survive, but not to the extent of giving away photos to a relatively well-off commercial publication. To suggest that is the way to go is just utter bloody idiocy.
 
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jamesb84 said:
This is utter idiocy though, we aren't talking about a fans website or a publication run off from some guys computer at his own expense.

We are talking about a Commercial enterprise that is charging for its product.

The magazine retails for £4.00 each issue to the consumer, their rate card is "unavailable" conveniently but their sister publications Cricket Club have theirs available.

A 1/8 page advert for 1 issue in Cricket Club is £545 rising to £3495 for a 1 issue Double Page Spread.

This is an organisation that can afford to pay for photography.

If we were talking about a charity then things would be very different. I offer my services to 3 charities who otherwise would not be able to afford photography for their websites and promotional materials, it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling...but this is not one of those cases.

I agree that photography needs to adapt to survive, but not to the extent of giving away photos to a relatively well-off commercial publication. To suggest that is the way to go is just utter bloody idiocy.
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I made two posts in this thread.. the first saying what the OP should do which included NOT giving the pictures for free..

The second post which you quoted was a more wider general view of pro photogrpahy that we must adapt to the growing problem.. in no way was it advocating the giving away of images..

I think you should direct your post at someone else not me..
 
KIPAX said:
I made two posts in this thread.. the first saying what the OP should do which included NOT giving the pictures for free..

The second post which you quoted was a more wider general view of pro photogrpahy that we must adapt to the growing problem.. in no way was it advocating the giving away of images..

I think you should direct your post at someone else not me..
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Oops, sorry Tony, I thought I'd quoted both yours and Simonw's post...apologies.
 
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No probs mate.. its just a messageboard :) But to be clear.. I only quoted his line saying we must adapt.. I 100% agree wiht that.. I ahve taken many steps to adapt and make sure people pay for my pictures..I am working around the no pay lark..
 
KIPAX said:
No probs mate.. its just a messageboard :) But to be clear.. I only quoted his line saying we must adapt.. I 100% agree wiht that.. I ahve taken many steps to adapt and make sure people pay for my pictures..I am working around the no pay lark..
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If we are setting the record straight, neither did I say people should give their work away.

However I would add if people want to do so, no one can or should stop them.
 
simonw said:
If we are setting the record straight, neither did I say people should give their work away.

However I would add if people want to do so, no one can or should stop them.
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I would also agree with that... Its certainly not my place to tell other people what they can or cant do wiht there pictures and anyone who cares to check my history on TP will see I have always said that nobody.. espcialy pro photogrpahers should be telling other photogrpahers what they can or cant do.. However.. we can advise and explain the situation and appeal to them and hope they see the light... Personally i think its a dead loss and the problem will get worse not better.. but if asked I would still reply with NOT FREE .
 
Interesting, not heard anything further from the contact at Football Focus. Obviously don't want to pursue if they might have to pay. I think Gary's on the button "it depends" but unless the club REALLY want me to and it becomes awkward not to, I really can't see why I should give images away.
 
Gary Coyle said:
There are of course other kinds of payment, cold hard cash isn't the only legal tender.
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Indeed, the charity stuff i've done has opened a good few doors as people associated with the charity have also been in touch to book work for their businesses.

However, I'd be interested to know what a specialist magazine could offer in the way of associated benefits considering the intrinsic value of Carol's photos. Sometimes, cold hard cash is the only way for payment...I wouldn't ask the Sunday Times for anything other than money for example, as there really isnt much they could offer me of equal value.
 
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jamesb84 said:
I wouldn't ask the Sunday Times for anything other than money for example, as there really isnt much they could offer me of equal value.
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Just throwing an idea in, as someone who likes to barter a bit, ok the Times might not be up for this but publications most would have an equipment budget, could you not get some equipment? or even some printing in exchange for photos?

I will add I only take photos for pleasure, I have never attempted to sell an image and I have no idea of how the world of pro photography works, just throwing an idea about :)

Cheers
Ian
 
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jamesb84 said:
Indeed, the charity stuff i've done has opened a good few doors as people associated with the charity have also been in touch to book work for their businesses.

However, I'd be interested to know what a specialist magazine could offer in the way of associated benefits considering the intrinsic value of Carol's photos. Sometimes, cold hard cash is the only way for payment...I wouldn't ask the Sunday Times for anything other than money for example, as there really isnt much they could offer me of equal value.
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you keep going back to one magazine when we are talking about the bigger picture and widespread problem.. i think the one magazine issue has been resolved :)
 
Last season I was one of those photographers who would give the local paper my photographs for free. But after reading what others on this forum have posted I asked for payment this season and was surprised that they agreed to pay, albeit a small amount, and also still give me credit.
This is down to the fact that nobody else supplies the paper with local football photos, so if they want them they need to pay. Now, if someone else started to supply the paper for free then they would obviously kick me into touch and use the freebies even if the quality was poorer than mine.
 
Sgt_Bilko99 said:
Last season I was one of those photographers who would give the local paper my photographs for free. But after reading what others on this forum have posted I asked for payment this season and was surprised that they agreed to pay, albeit a small amount, and also still give me credit.
This is down to the fact that nobody else supplies the paper with local football photos, so if they want them they need to pay. Now, if someone else started to supply the paper for free then they would obviously kick me into touch and use the freebies even if the quality was poorer than mine.
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I did the same when my club was non league.. never made it a secret.... nobody explained anything to me.. the two photogrpahers before me at the club over about 20 yrs never got paid.. so neither did I ... I changed all that when i realised and now as a self employed photogrpaher that paper is my second biggest customer ..

however some people with long and warped memories keep going on about it and telling everyone i give free pics away.. some sick puppies about ...
 
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Although I don't earn a living with my photography, I started out giving away for free, it felt good, looked good in print and felt like the right thing to do.

After looking at the bigger picture (no pun intended), and studying people on here that need to earn a living from images, it was the most foolish thing I have ever done with my photography. Now the only person who gets free is my family, and even my son asks me if he can use pics of him for facebook etc, that's because I have taught him the value of it. Free has it's place, not for a commercial outlet without something of value coming back.

Phil.
 
KIPAX said:
you keep going back to one magazine when we are talking about the bigger picture and widespread problem.. i think the one magazine issue has been resolved :)
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In which case we are probably singing from the same hymn sheet. I think for editorial work, you really are limited to cash payments, for commercial work then there's a lot of scope for other benefits. Do a job for an energy company - why not ask for a discount on leccy bills?
 
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jamesb84 said:
In which case we are probably singing from the same hymn sheet. I think for editorial work, you really are limited to cash payments, for commercial work then there's a lot of scope for other benefits. Do a job for an energy company - why not ask for a discount on leccy bills?
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Or a free subscription to a football magazine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
The problem to some extend is that as soon as one person decides that after giving them away, they now want paying, the paper just goes to the next person who just wants to see their image in the paper.

i.e. self perpetuating.
 
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