Whatever happened to Camera-craft?

But as David pointed out, the good shots aren't due to 'camera skills' it's artistic skills.

I can honestly say Phil, that I attribute at least 90% of the quality of my shots to the equipment ……… OK I recognise that I stand in position, chose the subject thru the VF ….. put myself in the physical situation …… but without the "right" equipment I would miss the shot or not get the shot that I wanted

I do not put them down to my skill being the dominant factor or that I have "extra" normal ability ……. I truly believe this

I just accept that most of us are normal and that the great equipment that we have today enables us to take very good images that we would not have taken in the days of film
 
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It sounds like: "In a world, where digital rules, there stands one man..."
Which Hollywood actor would be best to play the part of "Bronica Man"?
 
I just accept that most of us are normal and that the great equipment that we have today enables us to take very good images that we would not have taken in the days of film

I think that is nonsense. Why would film or digital make any difference?


Steve.
 
I think that is nonsense. Why would film or digital make any difference?


Steve.

If you cannot understand why - I cannot explain it

lets just say as a minor point I did not have a D750 with all it's attributes and a Nikon 600mm f4 + TC's in the days of film …………. or LR and PS
 
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I can honestly say Phil, that I attribute at least 90% of the quality of my shots to the equipment ……… OK I recognise that I stand in position, chose the subject thru the VF ….. put myself in the physical situation …… but without the "right" equipment I would miss the shot or not get the shot that I wanted

I do not put them down to my skill being the dominant factor or that I have "extra" normal ability ……. I truly believe this

I just accept that most of us are normal and that the great equipment that we have today enables us to take very good images that we would not have taken in the days of film
Well you're much luckier than me then. I haven't taken enough 'very good images' to be able to attribute 90% of them to any one thing. I might get 5 a year if I'm lucky, and the 5 from 5 years ago aren't good enough for that label now.

Or maybe we have a different view of what is 'very good'?
 
I think that is nonsense. Why would film or digital make any difference?


Steve.

Higher ISOs with digital, and better image quality at the same ISO. In my case (as I use black and white film in a 5x4 camera) reduced image quality and lower subject brightness range that can be captured with digital.
 
Well you're much luckier than me then. I haven't taken enough 'very good images' to be able to attribute 90% of them to any one thing. I might get 5 a year if I'm lucky, and the 5 from 5 years ago aren't good enough for that label now.

Or maybe we have a different view of what is 'very good'?

very good for me is better than the ones I took last year - it is a relative term and a measure of my personal improvement …… very good can be crap or very good depending on what you compare it with - I am not comparing my images with yours or any others - i'm comparing them with mine

(and I said very good images today in the context of comparing them with what normal people would have taken in the days of film ….. not very good images per se)

Maybe you should take a few lessons, go back to film, (?) or buy some better equipment ….. if you are seeking to improve …… or get out more and take more shots …. think about the concept of "spraying and praying" - pray is a very powerful thing and may improve your very good images rate to 6 a year ….. miracles can happen especially for normal people:rolleyes:

Take a few more images on Sunday, after Church ………..presumably you are in their quite a lot, Church that is, with you job I mean, spend less time "flashing" and put a few bob in the collection
 
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I can honestly say Phil, that I attribute at least 90% of the quality of my shots to the equipment

I read this the first time round without realising that I didn't really understand what you mean. By "quality" are you referring to technical quality or (for want of a better term) artistic quality? In my case, I'd probably attribute 100% of the technical quality to the equipment; and a sizeable proportion of the artistic to the same source since I personally find that some cameras suit my way of seeing and working, and others put obstacles in my path to capturing the image I want.
 
Stephen - I suppose 90% of my shots are birds, Dragonflies and the like
You are correct - I mean't technical quality
artistic quality - no idea - more luck than design for me

I use Nikon DSLR's, Nikon V1, Sigma DP3M and occasionally a Leica - I agree - each camera does have it's particular way of seeing things and this is exacerbated by the lens

DSLR stuff is usually long lens ……… although I took a friends "low key" Wedding - first ever - of course because they were friends and laid back
V1 stuff is usual 300mm and restricted to close up insects
DP3M is 75mm equivalent - and a really interesting camera (technically)
and Leica is M8 with 28mm or 35mm lens ……. I was used to Leica film days ……. so I bought it as a gesture to that ….. but I'm now 68 and wear glasses ….. so sometimes I'm feeling in the dark with RF

I just take shots - I find some of them good, some very good …… most quite disappointing, missed opportunity …… but hey .. from another simple standpoint ……. I took 450 shots yesterday of maybe 6 (bird) subjects - cost = free ……. film days 13 rolls at what £ cost …………… quite liberating and creative

My "camera-craft" is getting to know what the camera can do technically and how best to use it in the varying shooting situations …… particularly light
same goes with lens
 
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very good for me is better than the ones I took last year - it is a relative term and a measure of my personal improvement …… very good can be crap or very good depending on what you compare it with - I am not comparing my images with yours or any others - i'm comparing them with mine

(and I said very good images today in the context of comparing them with what normal people would have taken in the days of film ….. not very good images per se)

Maybe you should take a few lessons, go back to film, (?) or buy some better equipment ….. if you are seeking to improve …… or get out more and take more shots …. think about the concept of "spraying and praying" - pray is a very powerful thing and may improve your very good images rate to 6 a year ….. miracles can happen especially for normal people:rolleyes:

Take a few more images on Sunday, after Church ………..presumably you are in their quite a lot, Church that is, with you job I mean, spend less time "flashing" and put a few bob in the collection
Although we may have different standards, I think we are also talking about 2 different issues. A camera and it's lenses can only be responsible for whether or not the shot is technically good. Technically good (as I said earlier) is no measure of 'good photography' in my opinion. Unfortunately lots of people believe it is.

However at least it's worth a discussion, unlike the notion that a prayer is helpful.
 
Stephen - I suppose 90% of my shots are birds, Dragonflies and the like
and this is often the source of disagreements on this forum. There are some very different schools of photography, each with it's own technical requirements. I can take some satisfactory street photographs using my 50p compact camera, and some b/w 35mm film. But I wouldn't try to compete with Bill's gear if I wanted to capture a passenger pigeon at velocity (yes I know).
 
Although we may have different standards, I think we are also talking about 2 different issues. A camera and it's lenses can only be responsible for whether or not the shot is technically good. Technically good (as I said earlier) is no measure of 'good photography' in my opinion. Unfortunately lots of people believe it is.

However at least it's worth a discussion, unlike the notion that a prayer is helpful.

Do you think that if you put a robotic camera in a hide that took say 10,000 shots based on a motion sensor that was targeted in a particular area and positioned correctly that a "very good photograph" with "artistic merit" could be produced …….. could be a major flock of birds in a sunset sky or another "situation"

Or indeed in many same scenario in many "normal" situations

or do you need an "artist" to set it up?

It is simply a function of time ……. a photographer uses a machine …….. and pp …. simple as that …… some of his shots may be "artistic" …….. I would rather say good or very good or exceptional, but IMHO he is not an artist …………(unless maybe he is an artist in another field) ……… but as you know this is my view …….. and being from "gods own county" it will take a lot to change it

as Paul says there are just different view, neither right nor wrong ……. IMHO

I just like that certain people who take photographs like to think that they are "artists" - it help their vanity .. which is not an attractive trait, IMHO …. have to keep using this on here or smilies otherwise ……. people get upset ……. many do not realise that if you write it it is usually your opinion

we may disagree, discuss and argue …….. but it is far better that we do that than the opposite ……… on a Forum

I may not appear to respect both views equally but I do understand the argument as logically anything and everything could be true in a very specific situation ……. known or unknown, as Donald Rumsfeld is famous for saying, in a different way ……… he believed in prayer?
 
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I was at Bempton Cliffs yesterday and was amazed at the plethora of big lenses, etc. Walking along the cliff top footpath, loads of toggers were getting their BIFs.

I then heard all the shutters - 10+ fps - it was like quiet machines guns! Add into the mix - Servo focussing, fast ISO, huge memory cards and IS or VR. What has photography come to? Is it just a case of being there with an emptied wallet?

I then pondered over the abilities of two photography Craftsmen whose work I've always admired - Eric Hosking and Stephen Dalton. How did they managed with just 36 shots per roll?

So, it begs the question - What has become of camera-craft?

He has some great photos although I had a look at his site and he has some very complex set ups, far beyond anything I've ever seen on here.
 
Do you think that if you put a robotic camera in a hide that took say 10,000 shots based on a motion sensor that was targeted in a particular area and positioned correctly that a "very good photograph" with "artistic merit" could be produced …….. could be a major flock of birds in a sunset sky or another "situation"
--- clip ---

Which, I suppose in a way, brings us back to Bresson and his 'decisive moment'. Maybe that's what camera craft is all about and will never change ~ the eye of a photographer.
 
and this is often the source of disagreements on this forum. There are some very different schools of photography, each with it's own technical requirements.

Quite. And not just technical requirements either. As a Yorkshireman, I'll be blunt and also vain (as I consider myself an artist rather than a photographer - and explaining that will get a lot of people's backs up, so another time, another thread :D). Natural history photography has always come across to me as a technical branch of photography, where the print must not be a "departure from reality" to use Ansel Adams' phrase and hence not a branch that gives much scope for creativity (relatively speaking). The restrictions on what can and can't be done have always puzzled me, since painters can get away with things that would disqualify a photographer - yet both are termed "natural history".

I'll backtrack on my previous post though - slightly less that 100% of the technical quality of my photos comes from the equipment, as there is an element of personal input in the developing of the film. In a worst case scenario, I could achieve pretty much zero technical quality if I made a big enough error (e.g. fixer in first and reticulated the film to boot).
 
In my case (as I use black and white film in a 5x4 camera) reduced image quality and lower subject brightness range that can be captured with digital.

If you are getting better resolution and dynamic range with digital then you are doing something wrong with your 5x4 film!!


Steve.
 
Do you think that if you put a robotic camera in a hide that took say 10,000 shots based on a motion sensor that was targeted in a particular area and positioned correctly that a "very good photograph" with "artistic merit" could be produced …….. could be a major flock of birds in a sunset sky or another "situation"

Or indeed in many same scenario in many "normal" situations

or do you need an "artist" to set it up?

It is simply a function of time ……. a photographer uses a machine …….. and pp …. simple as that …… some of his shots may be "artistic" …….. I would rather say good or very good or exceptional, but IMHO he is not an artist …………(unless maybe he is an artist in another field) ……… but as you know this is my view …….. and being from "gods own county" it will take a lot to change it

as Paul says there are just different view, neither right nor wrong ……. IMHO

I just like that certain people who take photographs like to think that they are "artists" - it help their vanity .. which is not an attractive trait, IMHO …. have to keep using this on here or smilies otherwise ……. people get upset ……. many do not realise that if you write it it is usually your opinion

we may disagree, discuss and argue …….. but it is far better that we do that than the opposite ……… on a Forum

I may not appear to respect both views equally but I do understand the argument as logically anything and everything could be true in a very specific situation ……. known or unknown, as Donald Rumsfeld is famous for saying, in a different way ……… he believed in prayer?


It depends what you shoot. IMHO (I'm gonna get bored of doing that... so consider it my default position) Wildlife is more about patience, luck and gear. Some photographers ARE artists. It's nothing to do with vanity at all. They produce art, so they are artists. I just find that some people are bitter, angry and resentful because imagery they see as technically flawed and not as "good" as theirs gets praised, exhibited, published and acclaimed, and shots of birds on twigs, or sentimental lendscapes do not.

I also find it strange that people who know nothing about art are able to make statements regarding what is, or is not art. They'd not pretend they know a great deal about other things they're not involved in, yet because they're photographers they suddenly feel they have a right to comment on what's art and what's not.. usually in a very negative, derisive way towards photographers who are artists.

Which, I suppose in a way, brings us back to Bresson and his 'decisive moment'. Maybe that's what camera craft is all about and will never change ~ the eye of a photographer.

If you have 10fps, do you NEED a decisive moment any more? Would a photo that captures a decisive moment not still have worth, even if it was captured by firing off 10 frames before, and 10 more after just to make sure you have it in the bag? Or is that kind of photography redundant, old, and pointless now? With billions of images being taken every year, there are millions of great images that capture the decisive moment now - they're usually vernacular or journalistic, and the decisive moment is no longer something that's a pre-requisite for a good photograph if you ask me. It's too easy now. When Bresson was using a Leica, one frame at a time to do it... sure... that was cool... but no biggy any more... any fool can do it now, so those kinds of images were of their time, and that time has passed.. except in the curious time loop of the amateur, where it's still held up as some kind of super-sense that mystically makes an image wonderful. It doesn't.

Photography has changed. It's saturated with decorative, aesthetic imagery to the point where it makes me physically sick to look at it any more. I feel like a foie gras goose being force fed this high calorie diet of hyper-aesthetic, super-sensory overload of post processing, and it makes me want to scream in frustration. The bickering, cynical competitiveness of amateurs has gone into over-drive, all trying to out DO each other, and out KNOW each other... for what? That 10stop waterfall image, or that shot of a famous landscape.. already done... but done BETTER by you? What for? No ****er else is gonna care who's is best... no one will buy it, hang it, exhibit it... Work has to be either innovative, or it has to DO something. That's all that matters now, which is why amateurs are just left bewildered, and blinking like myopic owls in confusion at how "this art farty b******s" sells for so much money. It reminds me of 70s light entertainment has-beens being bitter and angry that they're not relevant any longer, and mourning the loss of the good old days of Tarby, Brucie and Paul Daniels. Tough ****. Move on.

Times change. No one really gives a **** about how "good" you are by obsessing over metrics such as sharpness, composition, exposure... why should we be? Those skills are easy now. Either the camera does it for you, or there's a million you tube videos to get you where you need to be, How can THAT still be a relevant measure of what's good any more? If anyone can do it... it's worthless. I'm not suggesting no one expects those things to be present... of course we do.. even MORE than ever (if it's relevant), but not because they're so important, but because they are so EASY!

Amateur photography has it's head up it's own arse even more firmly than it ever has at any time I can remember, and that's both sad, and ironic when you consider it's easier than ever to access a wide range of lens based art now than it's ever been.

Wagon circling.
 
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If you are getting better resolution and dynamic range with digital then you are doing something wrong with your 5x4 film!!


Steve.

Don't Digital cameras handle contrast far better than film, maintaining more detail in the dark and light areas
Exposure errors, (OK artists don't make them!:) …… sorry!) are corrected far easier in Digital pp .. and you can see any over exposure alert in camera
The in camera Histogram is very useful
just to mention a few

Processing - well no comparison - poison the world with chemicals ……. or one single flash card can be used for thousands of images versus ……. think of the celluloid saved

I'm quite old - 68 - so I took film for years - would never go back …. and of course the sanity warning, just IMHO
 
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It depends what you shoot. IMHO (I'm gonna get bored of doing that... so consider it my default position) Wildlife is more about patience, luck and gear. Some photographers ARE artists. It's nothing to do with vanity at all. They produce art, so they are artists. I just find that some people are bitter, angry and resentful because imagery they see as technically flawed and not as "good" as theirs gets praised, exhibited, published and acclaimed, and shots of birds on twigs, or sentimental lendscapes do not.

I also find it strange that people who know nothing about art are able to make statements regarding what is, or is not art. They'd not pretend they know a great deal about other things they're not involved in, yet because they're photographers they suddenly feel they have a right to comment on what's art and what's not.. usually in a very negative, derisive way towards photographers who are artists.



If you have 10fps, do you NEED a decisive moment any more? Would a photo that captures a decisive moment not still have worth, even if it was captured by firing off 10 frames before, and 10 more after just to make sure you have it in the bag? Or is that kind of photography redundant, old, and pointless now? With billions of images being taken every year, there are millions of great images that capture the decisive moment now - they're usually vernacular or journalistic, and the decisive moment is no longer something that's a pre-requisite for a good photograph if you ask me. It's too easy now. When Bresson was using a Leica, one frame at a time to do it... sure... that was cool... but no biggy any more... any fool can do it now, so those kinds of images were of their time, and that time has passed.. except in the curious time loop of the amateur, where it's still held up as some kind of super-sense that mystically makes an image wonderful. It doesn't.

Photography has changed. It's saturated with decorative, aesthetic imagery to the point where it makes me physically sick to look at it any more. I feel like a foie gras goose being force fed this high calorie diet of hyper-aesthetic, super-sensory overload of post processing, and it makes me want to scream in frustration. The bickering, cynical competitiveness of amateurs has gone into over-drive, all trying to out DO each other, and out KNOW each other... for what? That 10stop waterfall image, or that shot of a famous landscape.. already done... but done BETTER by you? What for? No ****er else is gonna care who's is best... no one will buy it, hang it, exhibit it... Work has to be either innovative, or it has to DO something. That's all that matters now, which is why amateurs are just left bewildered, and blinking like myopic owls in confusion at how "this art farty b******s sells for so much money. It reminds me of 70s light entertainment has-beens being bitter and angry that they're not relevant any longer, and mourning the loss of the good old days of Tarby, Brucie and Paul Daniels. Tough ****. Move on.

Times change. No one really gives a **** about how "good" you are by obsessing over metrics such as sharpness, composition, exposure... why should we be? Those skills are easy now. Either camera does it for you, or there's a million you tube videos to get you where you need to be, How can THAT still be a relevant measure of what's good any more? If anyone can do it... it's worthless. I'm not suggesting no one expects those things to be present... of course we do.. even MORE than ever, but not because they're so important, but because they are so EASY!

Amateur photography has it's head up it's own arse even more firmly than it ever has at any time I can remember, and that's both sad, and ironic when you consider it's easier than ever to access a wide range of lens based art now than it's ever been.

Wagon circling.

icon_boing.gif
 
Don't Digital cameras handle contrast far better than film

No. Negative film has much better dynamic range than any digital sensor - black and white especially so. Where a digital sensor will clip the highlights once its maximum level has been reached, film emulsion will keep getting progressively darker with increased exposure.

Processing - well no comparison - poison the world with chemicals

You probably have more caustic cleaning solutions under your kitchen sink. Film processing is not that bad. You should look up what is used to create electronic components!

I'm quite old - 68 - so I took film for years - would never go back ….

I though that in 2003 when I bought a D100. Not long after, I went back to film.

However, it wasn't a technical quality issue for me (both are great now). I just don't like sitting at a computer doing post processing.


Steve.
 
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No. Negative film has much better dynamic range than any digital sensor - black and white especially so. Where a digital sensor will clip the highlights once its maximum level has been reached, film emulsion will keep getting progressively darker with increased exposure.


Steve.

Thanks you Steve

I stand corrected …… I always thought the reverse and certainly shadow detail was better in digital
 
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Processing - well no comparison - poison the world with chemicals ……. or one single flash card can be used for thousands of images versus ……. think of the celluloid saved

Got a cellphone? Computer? Hybrid car? If so, you're a much bigger planet ****er than anyone who does a bit of film processing.
 
Got a cellphone? Computer? Hybrid car? If so, you're a much bigger planet ****er than anyone who does a bit of film processing.

I can see your point - but not really - it is a comparison of like v like ……… digital photography equipment is a very very small part of the computer market worldwide

i am comparing digital v film

not diesel v petrol

or wind power v coal
 
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I can see your point - but not really - it is a comparison of like v like ……… digital photography equipment is a very very small part of the computer market worldwide

Really? All phones have a digital camera. All tablets. My point is, why be concerned about the chemistry involved in film processing, as if it's singularly responsible for all manner of evils, when you're no doubt surrounded by devices and ethically questionable purchases that do far more harm to the environment? Seems slightly hypocritical.
 
i am comparing digital v film

not diesel v petrol

or wind power v coal

Sorry, forgot to make a point. While USING a digital camera seems pretty innocuous, it's MANUFACTURE is certainly not.
 
Really? All phones have a digital camera. All tablets. My point is, why be concerned about the chemistry involved in film processing, as if it's singularly responsible for all manner of evils, when you're no doubt surrounded by devices and ethically questionable purchases that do far more harm to the environment? Seems slightly hypocritical.

Cameras are computers - that is why I said the computer market NOT the photographic industry

I did not say film processing was singularly responsible for all manner of evils , or even imply it - as usual you are on "something" - must be the artist in you

Any danger from chemicals in the film processing industry has diminished considerable ……. it is dead or dying

But I bow to your superior knowledge

I'm sure that you have written a paper on the subject of celluloid film versus Flash cards and their environmental impact

………….PS - my mobile does not have a camera
 
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Any danger from chemicals in the film processing industry has diminished considerable ……. it is dead or dying

Replaced by strip mining for nickel, copper, aluminium - the raping of several south American countries for lithium with total disregard for the environment... all for your digital convenience. :)

The mass production of film, and the mass processing of silver based imagery was less environmentally damaging than the digital equivalent. Fact... just as the use and manufacture of hybrid cars is almost twice as damaging as the manufacture and use of conventional petrol vehicles.

Try telling that to the muesli and Tofu crowd though... they'll not believe you :)
 
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Cameras are computers - that is why I said the computer market NOT the photographic industry

I did not say film processing was singularly responsible for all manner of evils , or even imply it - as usual you are on "something" - must be the artist in you

Any danger from chemicals in the film processing industry has diminished considerable ……. it is dead or dying

But I bow to your superior knowledge

I'm sure that you have written a paper on the subject of celluloid film versus Flash cards and their environmental impact

………….PS - my mobile does not have a camera

The people of Congo have been dying a long time too...
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...nflict-minerals-intel-marcus-bleasdale-congo/
 
If you have 10fps, do you NEED a decisive moment any more? Would a photo that captures a decisive moment not still have worth, even if it was captured by firing off 10 frames before, and 10 more after just to make sure you have it in the bag? Or is that kind of photography redundant, old, and pointless now?

Let's see.... if the shutter is open for 1/500 sec for those 10 frames that means there are 20mS for each those 10 frames - giving 200mS per burst which leaves 800mS of non-capturing, time opportunities.... so many Decisive moments left to chance! (Simple arithmetic ignoring mechanical lags, etc)

The "Decisive Moment" really is germaine to the whole concept of camera-craft.
 
Let's see.... if the shutter is open for 1/500 sec for those 10 frames that means there are 20mS for each those 10 frames - giving 200mS per burst which leaves 800mS of non-capturing, time opportunities.... so many Decisive moments left to chance! (Simple arithmetic ignoring mechanical lags, etc)

The "Decisive Moment" really is germaine to the whole concept of camera-craft.


The fact is.. no one cares any more :)
 
The fact is --- you think no one cares any more!

No one that matters cares. Well timed images make great news fodder or internet memes, but so far as a measure of how good a photo is.. no one really cares. You've missed that bus. The fact is, with so many millions of new images flooding the internet every single day, such images are common, expected, and not really that hard to create any more. Don't forget that 4K video is now pretty available for a great many.... so that's at least 30 frames a second.

Easy peasy. No longer a skill I'm afraid.

Craft skills get less and less relevant every year, and the sooner they disappear up amateur photography's own imperfect ***hole the better. Maybe then we can get down to business and care about what really matters. While they're necessary, you should have great skills, yes... but let's be honest... photography is pretty damned easy these days. I see no currency in praising people for something that's easy.
 
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Any danger from chemicals in the film processing industry has diminished considerable ……. it is dead or dying

Whilst it is never going to be mainstream again, film use has actually increased over the last few years. As has the production of vinyl records, incidentally. Neither are dead or dying.

Ilford have reported increased sales and film production for them is at a sustainable level.


Steve.
 
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