When are you a professional photographer

I'd say you are a full time professional if you intend to make your primary income from photography. Part time pro, or semi pro, is where your photographic earnings are in addition to other earned income.
 
gramps said:
Originally of course the term 'professional' identified someone who worked in what was known as the 'professions' i.e. Doctor, Barrister, Minister etc and reflected an extensive period of recognised training, a recognised qualification and the attachment to a recognised Governing Body.
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The original meaning referred to someone entering a religious order. Your usages come much later.
 
MartynK said:
The original meaning referred to someone entering a religious order. Your usages come much later.
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The origin of the word alone is earlier yes (1400's/1500's)and referred to one who had made a 'profession of faith', however in the context of this thread the word 'professional' came in the late 1700's/early 1800's.
 
MartynK said:
The original meaning referred to someone entering a religious order. Your usages come much later.
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gramps said:
The origin of the word alone is earlier yes (1400's/1500's)and referred to one who had made a 'profession of faith', however in the context of this thread the word 'professional' came in the late 1700's/early 1800's.
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Guys, you are rather missing the point. It matters not a jot what the etymology of the words is, it is how the word is viewed, used and understood in a contemporary sense that is important.

For all effect purposes that means a bloke(ss) who makes money with a stills camera.

There is an implied professionalism attached to the phrase 'professional photographer', which is why it's been hijacked by all and sundry trying to bolster their public personna/marketing image, usually with very little grounds at all. It hasn't been helped when cowboyesque setups like 'The Societies' allow every man and his dog (who is quite often the better photographer) to nestle under their banner of Professional, when all they've had to do is pay a few quid for the privilege.

The phrase is shot. Forget claiming it back with qualifications and licensing, it's time to develop a new benchmark.
 
DemiLion said:
Guys, you are rather missing the point. It matters not a jot what the etymology of the words is, it is how the word is viewed, used and understood in a contemporary sense that is important.

For all effect purposes that means a bloke(ss) who makes money with a stills camera.

There is an implied professionalism attached to the phrase 'professional photographer', which is why it's been hijacked by all and sundry trying to bolster their public personna/marketing image, usually with very little grounds at all. It hasn't been helped when cowboyesque setups like 'The Societies' allow every man and his dog (who is quite often the better photographer) to nestle under their banner of Professional, when all they've had to do is pay a few quid for the privilege.

The phrase is shot. Forget claiming it back with qualifications and licensing, it's time to develop a new benchmark.
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I don't think many people think of a "professional photographer" as anything more than someone who does it for a living.

In my 'profession' I have to adhere to a set of British and European Standards, belong to a Professional Body and submit my work/procedures to inspection by an Inspector from my Professional Body on an annual basis.
It doesn't however necessarily make me any more money than the bloke down the road that has none of these encumbrances.
 
KIPAX said:
Make money = Professional
Don't make money = Amatuer.
Professional and professionalism are two different things


Why is it so hard for people to accept the simplicity if the situation?
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Exactly.

Given that "camera-owner" isn't used as much as it should be ;-)

Photographer covers everyone that takes photographs, Professional Photographer is someone who charges to do so.

(I'm in the Yoda camp on this. Professional or Amateur - there is no semi-Pro)
 
Feel free to go right ahead and call yourself "camera owner" if you please ;)
 
meonshore said:
Exactly.

Given that "camera-owner" isn't used as much as it should be ;-)

Photographer covers everyone that takes photographs, Professional Photographer is someone who charges to do so.

(I'm in the Yoda camp on this. Professional or Amateur - there is no semi-Pro)
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:shrug: Given that almost everyone is a 'camera owner' but the number of people who'd consider themselves 'photographers' is a small minority of those, where is 'camera owner' helping?:shrug:

I think the doing it for money has it covered - and most people would rarely or never choose to describe themselves as such.
 
How about 'when you are willing to make a 30-mile round trip at eight o'clock on a Friday night, over flooded roads, during a storm, to photograph a woman having her hair blow-dried, for which you will receive a pitiful fee and the pic may (or may not...) appear across two columns at the bottom of page 12 of next week's local paper'.

How did you spend your Friday night? (And I'm not bitter. Oh no, not a bit bitter).
 
meonshore said:
Really ?

Been on Facebook recently :bonk:
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Yes - it's a growing minority now;) - but still a minority

Seriously everyone I know owns a camera (especially now with camera phones) - only people who are semi serious about it as a hobby would call themselves a photographer, just like musical instruments - I own a guitar - but I'm not a guitarist.

I do consider myself a 'cook', but not just because I own some fancy knives and a few cookbooks;), more to do with how seriously I take my cooking.
 
I often get asked if I'm a professional when I'm learning how to shoot weddings (different topic for another day) or just when I'm out shooting anything to be honest.

The general public seem to base it on the fact that you may have a large camera, lens, tripod etc.

I firmly state that I'm nowhere near professional and merely pursue a hobby. For me, professional implies that you are getting paid for what you are doing and that you know what you are doing.

For me, I don't tick those boxes. I'm still learning so I don't even like referring to myself as Amateur.
 
To be a professional is to be proficient at what you do, its about conduct, attitude and a **** load of other things, it has stuff all to do with money.

This also is not a difficult concept to absorb.
 
It's all about money at the end of the day.

Pookeyhead said:
I refer to myself as a photographer. Anyone who feels the need to add the suffix professional to that title has too much to prove in my opinion.
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This, all day long.

Had an interesting discussion on a local forum thing about this.

Some nipper local to me desperately wants to be a 'professional photographer' and because of this takes huge offence at being referred to as a 'keen amateur'.

If you need to have another job then you're at best semi-pro, at which point saying you're a 'photographer' sounds a lot better because who wants someone to take semi-professional photos? :lol:

We live in the age of the amateur and the 'photography professional' is one of the largest victims of this.

Deal with it and figure out how to add value to your photography if you run a photography business - you should be able to make money even in today's climate, but only if you're professional and innovative about your business.
 
DemiLion said:
Unfortunately that's exactly what it means, which is why, at least in my own view, the term 'professional photographer' has become somewhat tainted.

There are so many chancers about claiming to be 'professionals', that the whole concept is now meaningless and there is almost no chance of reclaiming the ground. I know Daryl's suggested an industry wide qualification in the past (and to a large extent I agree), but I just can't see it being practicable.
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I find almost the exact same thing in Engineering, i went to University and got a degree in Engineering, i work full time as a Design Engineer, so i class myself as an Engineer

It really does annoy me that you get lots of other professions now claiming to be "Engineers"

The classic is one of my mates who calls himself an Air Conditioning Engineer............... he fits Air Con units, he is (in my eyes at least) no way an Engineer, he is a fitter, he gets a unit, unpacks it, bolts it to the wall and pipes it up................ that is not Engineering
 
The Germans as has been said before.....

You have to a Professional qrecognised qualification in Photography and a abusiness studies certificate or qualification or you can not trade. End of.

Those that are so good as part timersand moan all the time. Put your money where your mouth is and go full time and stop moaning.

'But i have a mortgage and 4 kids to and wife!' Whinge whinge.

so keep dreaming and do your day job and settle for what you get.

Those that are full time and are c r a p will soon go down the tubes.

I get so tired of being told if pro togs are worried they should up their game. Total cobblers.

I have no insecurity in the service and quality we offer.

What i do have a gripe about is togs with cushey day jobs have no intention of giving it up. changing low rates regardless how good they are, don't care.

The good full timers are suffing from endless photographer listings and ads that no client will troll through.

Wedding togs good example in Oxfordshire. Guides for Brides have over 190 togs listed.
Who the hell is going to troll that lot. They will look at location and pick four and go through that.

Over saturation in the wedding area is why I can not be arsed to to it.

Its far too many. It's killing the standards and devaluing the industry.

togs can harp on and bore us to death all day its about upping ones game and quality. No it's not at those numbers. It's about the client having the time and inclanation to go through 100's of ads and listings.
you could be the most arty farty style mid priced tog in the County. The chances of getting seen in a listing of 190 is slim. so before you get the chance to show how wonderful you are you will not get short listed.

Only people making money out of it is the papers/Bridal forums/Websites designers/printers.

Listing on sites is no different than listings on Google. you have to keep coming up with blogs, frogs and togs to stay ahead of 200 others doing the same thing.

Who really gets the benefit? SEO web designers.....

waste of time and energy when you are busy doing shoots.

Whether good or bad not my concern. what is is there are far too many playing at being photographers. Makes it harder for 'good/ ethical' togs to keep going.


By the way before someone has a dig. Our business is doing ok.

Merry Xmas!
 
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when you earn from it for a living. but it doesn't necessary make you a good professional
 
A crap professional is not professional at all.

If you had a team of window fitters come to your house late, fit windows badly, talked to you like an arse and **** on the living room carpet, you'd say they didn't do a professional job.
If they came and did all that but fitted the windows well, does that make them professional ?
Does it ****, there's still **** on the carpet, it still over ran by 4 days cos they were late and your blood pressure is still through the roof.

Now where does money fit in to this scenario ?
That's right.....nowhere, because being paid has absolutely no connection with professionalism.
 
joxby said:
A crap professional is not professional at all.

If you had a team of window fitters come to your house late, fit windows badly, talked to you like an arse and **** on the living room carpet, you'd say they didn't do a professional job.
If they came and did all that but fitted the windows well, does that make them professional ?
Does it ****, there's still **** on the carpet, it still over ran by 4 days cos they were late and your blood pressure is still through the roof.

Now where does money fit in to this scenario ?
That's right.....nowhere, because being paid has absolutely no connection with professionalism.
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Professional and Professionalism are two different things.. the thread asks about one.. your answering about the other..
 
Lets flip it around..

If a professional footballer takes to the pitch.. scores a home goal in the first 5 mins.. then attacks another player and gets sent off.. throws a paddy.. leaves the ground and goes to the pub..... gues what? he is still a profesional because he gets paid..


Being a profesional and professionalism are two different things! :)
 
joxby said:
If you had a team of window fitters come to your house late, fit windows badly, talked to you like an arse and **** on the living room carpet, you'd say they didn't do a professional job.
If they came and did all that but fitted the windows well, does that make them professional ?
Does it ****, there's still **** on the carpet, it still over ran by 4 days cos they were late and your blood pressure is still through the roof.
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Yes, that makes them professionals. In fact it's a good illustration of the difference between being a professional, and acting professionally. If these guys are paid, you can say "it's not the job I'd expect from a professional". If they're not, and they do a good job, you could say "for amateurs, they did a very professional job". What you cannot say, because it makes no sense without either context or more words to change the nouns into adjectives, is either "these amateurs were professionals", or "these professionals were amateurs". In other words, it depends whether you're using the words professional and amateur as nouns ("he is a professional"), or adjectives ("that's a very professional job").

You are "a professional" (noun) when you take money for your services. Whether or not you "act professionally" (adjective), or are any good at your profession, is beside the point!
 
neil_g said:
Seriously though, who cares if you fit within a definition .
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quite a lot of people who are about to part wiht there money.. tell them your an amatuer and no matter how good your pics are...plop!

rightly or wrongly..introducing yourself to a prospective client or advertising yourself.. professional photogrpaher is important..
 
Southdowns said:
You are "a professional" (noun) when you take money for your services. Whether or not you "act professionally" (adjective), or are any good at your profession, is beside the point!
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We're just gonna have to agree to differ then, I do take your point, however I don't believe accepting money defines a professional, you are professional when you act so, accepting money is only a small part of that and could also be described as besides the point.
What defines a professional, nouns & adjectives aside, is the way they act.
Quite often some peeps here suggest that there ought to be some sort of photographic accreditation for photographers, a seal of approval of some kind to make it easier for jo po to sort the wheat from the chaff when choosing photographic services, yet those same people are happy to let the word professional, which implies a minimum quality of workmanship, be qualified by payment for what could be a pretty **** poor service.
So which is it to be, because it makes my bum itch when I look at what I offer as a professional and then according to this thread look at what I need to offer to be labelled "professional", which is sod all as long as I take money off somebody.
 
Jeez! Did IQ's dropsharply while i was away?

Professional =Making your sole living from said profession.

Whether a tog or squirrel catcher!!!!!

Acting professional or giving quality conduct and product is customer service. Nowt to do with the definition of the word.

(prə-fĕsh'ə-nəl)
adj. 1. a. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
b. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.

2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
3. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
n. 1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.


Even my dog understands the definition.
 
KIPAX said:
quite a lot of people who are about to part wiht there money.. tell them your an amatuer and no matter how good your pics are...plop!

rightly or wrongly..introducing yourself to a prospective client or advertising yourself.. professional photogrpaher is important..
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Well no, I wasn't suggesting calling yourself an amatuer. My point was that if you can provide a portfolio that your clients are happy to use as a basis to pay you to do work then who cares if you can fit within a varying definition of what people class as professional.

It seems other "professional" photographers are the only people that care about the definition rather than the quality of work.
 
Daryl said:
Professional =Making your sole living from said profession.

Whether a tog or squirrel catcher!!!!!
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There's money to be made from squirrel catching?!

I used to be quite good at that in college :thinking:
 
Perhaps my IQ drops in the morning, but you say

Daryl said:
Professional =Making your sole living from said profession.
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But then go on to quote an alternative definition with no mention of making your living or earning money.

Daryl said:
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.
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As i said in post 9, there is more than one answer!
;)
 
KIPAX said:
Lets flip it around..

If a professional footballer takes to the pitch.. scores a home goal in the first 5 mins.. then attacks another player and gets sent off.. throws a paddy.. leaves the ground and goes to the pub..... gues what? he is still a profesional because he gets paid..


Being a profesional and professionalism are two different things! :)
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Daryl said:
+1

Exactimondoe!
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Page 1 Post 13:thumbs:
 
Rapscallion said:
Perhaps my IQ drops in the morning, but you say

But then go on to quote an alternative definition with no mention of making your living or earning money.

As i said in post 9, there is more than one answer!
;)
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Daryl said:
Jeez! Did IQ's dropsharply while i was away?

Professional =Making your sole living from said profession.

Whether a tog or squirrel catcher!!!!!

Acting professional or giving quality conduct and product is customer service. Nowt to do with the definition of the word.

(prə-fĕsh'ə-nəl)
adj. 1. a. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
b. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.

2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
3. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
n. 1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.

Even my dog understands the definition.
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:nono: misquoting to make a point? we don't need to sink to this.

The crux is still the difference between the verb and the noun.

joxby said:
We're just gonna have to agree to differ then, I do take your point, however I don't believe accepting money defines a professional, you are professional when you act so, accepting money is only a small part of that and could also be described as besides the point.
What defines a professional, nouns & adjectives aside, is the way they act.
Quite often some peeps here suggest that there ought to be some sort of photographic accreditation for photographers, a seal of approval of some kind to make it easier for jo po to sort the wheat from the chaff when choosing photographic services, yet those same people are happy to let the word professional, which implies a minimum quality of workmanship, be qualified by payment for what could be a pretty **** poor service.
So which is it to be, because it makes my bum itch when I look at what I offer as a professional and then according to this thread look at what I need to offer to be labelled "professional", which is sod all as long as I take money off somebody.
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It's in your answer John, even though you're not saying it. To be professional isn't the same thing as being a professional.

To be a professional you simply need to get paid, to be professional is where the description is more complicated.

And the question was 'When are you a professional'
 
Ok, great debate, now to set the cat amongst the pigeons.

We have 6 people at the studio, not including me and my partner, None,zero,nada, have a clue about photography, they have zero clue about the cameras, and I do mean zero, probably don't even know the manufacturer if asked.

They all take pictures and work in the studio.

Now they make a living from this, but in no way could be classed as professional photographers, due to a total lack of knowledge, photographer would be pushing it a bit.

So in our case we class ourselves as a professional studio.

I am a "director" if a form has to be filled in.
 
Anthony222 said:
Hi friends iam a professional photographer and i am captured wedding photos wild animals and other views photos and also a studio photographer and this is a good job i am in this profession from a long year and have a good will in the market now because of my photography...
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riiight - you are a pro who shoots weddings, studio, landscapes, wildlife, and other pictures... you must have a remarkable ability, because most pro's tend to specialise.
 
big soft moose said:
riiight - you are a pro who shoots weddings, studio, landscapes, wildlife, and other pictures... you must have a remarkable ability, because most pro's tend to specialise.
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Perhaps he is a professional photographer who only shoots one of those professionally and the others for fun ?

Or perhaps he is a professional general practice, or freelance photographer who like very many thousands of photographers turn their hands to multiple disciplines in order to make money, some of which they are more expert in than others ?
 
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