When you know better then the art director

Tokkelossi

Tokkelossi

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Tom
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I sort of know my own answer to this but am interested to hear others.

Setting: High end fashion t-shirt shoot. 15 models, male, female etc. Hair, makeup. 50% studio 50% location (old dockyard). 2 days

Use: magazine advert run in USA. 15 women and fashion mags.

You: 20 years in, done this 100 time over and looking forward to shoot. 7 staff inc lights, camera assist and gopher ect.

Shoot starts fine for about an hour. Everyone having fun, most old hands. Then art dir steps in and wants me to change lights, exposure, wind, smoke ... all sorts of crap I know won’t look good or will take forever post pro.

I know what he wants and how to get it but .... he wants to do it his way.

My client (USA fashion house) is my boss; art dir is hired in by them for shoot.

I've done work for them before and know their style, it’s in the brief. Everything points at him f***ing it up.

What do you do?

Cost: $18k and/or reputation :thinking:
 
quick call to "peep paying bill" along the lines of "get this *** off my back"
 
Tokkelossi said:
I sort of know my own answer to this but am interested to hear others.

Setting: High end fashion t-shirt shoot. 15 models, male, female etc. Hair, makeup. 50% studio 50% location (old dockyard). 2 days

Use: magazine advert run in USA. 15 women and fashion mags.

You: 20 years in, done this 100 time over and looking forward to shoot. 7 staff inc lights, camera assist and gopher ect.

Shoot starts fine for about an hour. Everyone having fun, most old hands. Then art dir steps in and wants me to change lights, exposure, wind, smoke ... all sorts of crap I know won’t look good or will take forever post pro.

I know what he wants and how to get it but .... he wants to do it his way.

My client (USA fashion house) is my boss; art dir is hired in by them for shoot.

I've done work for them before and know their style, it’s in the brief. Everything points at him f***ing it up.

What do you do?

Cost: $18k and/or reputation :thinking:
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I'd be a little more careful posting stiff like this really mate, you'd be surprised how efficient google is at picking up these threads, if your concerned about your rep then maybe edit the post to make it less like an attack on relations to your client. Better to be safe. I''l be more than happy to edit my post too, for continuities sake ;)

As for what to do, well, only you can make the decision, are those two consequences the only elements at stake here? expenditure or rep? or are there more?

Art directors can sometimes be over-rided or 'extinguished' using the right channels, particularly if he/she is more of a middle man then they realise. Talk to the bigger boss maybe?
I'm sure someone will share the same concerns as you, especially if budgets are in danger of being wasted or misused.

If that's non applicable and talking things through with the art director are not getting anywhere, what choice do you have?

One thing I would personally be certain of though is that your ego is not being grazed or there is some other element of pride clouding your judgement.

It does seem odd that someone with 20 years experience etc is discussing this matter on a public forum, shouldn't you have experienced this kind of situation many times over and know precisley what to do?

Unless it's a retorical question or some kind of test?

Please don't take this in a negative sense but it does seem un-professional IMO.
 
You could sit down with him over a coffee and sort it out or you could waste time with a 'to the internet' style rant which will achieve nothing. I know which one I would choose, I'd also remove your post as it could land up costing you lots of money and reputation points.
 
Knock him out with your camera then carry on as you wish.:boxer::boxer::boxer:
 
Tomas Whitehouse said:
I'd be a little more careful posting stiff like this really mate, you'd be surprised how efficient google is at picking up these threads, if your concerned about your rep then maybe edit the post to make it less like an attack on relations to your client. Better to be safe.

As for what to do, well, only you can make the decision, are those two consequences the only elements at stake here? expenditure or rep? or are there more?

Art directors can sometimes be over-rided or 'extinguished' using the right channels, particularly if he/she is more of a middle man then they realise. Talk to the bigger boss maybe?
I'm sure someone will share the same concerns as you, especially if budgets are in danger of being wasted or misused.

If that's non applicable and talking things through with the art director are not getting anywhere, what choice do you have?

One thing I would personally be certain of though is that your ego is not being grazed or there is some other element of pride clouding your judgement.

It does seem odd that someone with 20 years experience etc is discussing this matter on a public forum, shouldn't you have experienced this kind of situation many times over and know precisley what to do?

Unless it's a retorical question or some kind of test?

Please don't take this in a negative sense but it does seem un-professional IMO.
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Well .... they already know ;) which gives away may answer .. sort of :D As for my reputation, I am well known for no bull when it comes to work. My clients know I wont beat about the bush and I wont suffer fools. Its their money and I wont waste it. This client has come back time & again. One meeting with them, they said that I saved them the cost of future art dirs.

I dont hide or tiptoe around. Google till the cows come home, I worry not that I do my clients service, even if its to take a rubbish art dir out of the system. All clients should be aware of this d**k.

I used to stroke egos all day long when I first started out but that only made me as bad. Now I say as I see. My staff call me Simon Cowell ...... wonder why :-)
 
Tokkelossi said:
I sort of know my own answer to this but am interested to hear others.

Setting: High end fashion t-shirt shoot. 15 models, male, female etc. Hair, makeup. 50% studio 50% location (old dockyard). 2 days

Use: magazine advert run in USA. 15 women and fashion mags.

You: 20 years in, done this 100 time over and looking forward to shoot. 7 staff inc lights, camera assist and gopher ect.

Shoot starts fine for about an hour. Everyone having fun, most old hands. Then art dir steps in and wants me to change lights, exposure, wind, smoke ... all sorts of crap I know won’t look good or will take forever post pro.

I know what he wants and how to get it but .... he wants to do it his way.

My client (USA fashion house) is my boss; art dir is hired in by them for shoot.

I've done work for them before and know their style, it’s in the brief. Everything points at him f***ing it up.

What do you do?

Cost: $18k and/or reputation :thinking:
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Why do people post stuff like this that makes them instantly identifiable to the other parties involved?

If I were you'd I'd be careful what you post, this strikes me as awfully close to being libelous........
 
if this is libelous ... who to? is that not my worry? can you name my client? can anyone on this forum?

half the problem with this country is that people are scared to speak their mind.

you may want to run and hide, keep quite and that is your option.

i find i like to speak and point things out

what are YOU affraid of? after all. I'm the one spouting off, end up in court, a ruined man.

unless i name names, i cant see how this is a legal matter.
 
Tokkelossi said:
if this is libelous ... who to? is that not my worry? can you name my client? can anyone on this forum?

half the problem with this country is that people are scared to speak their mind.

you may want to run and hide, keep quite and that is your option.

i find i like to speak and point things out

what are YOU affraid of? after all. I'm the one spouting off, end up in court, a ruined man.

unless i name names, i cant see how this is a legal matter.
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It's libelous to the art director, although you haven't named them, they would be readily identifiable to anyone "in the know" and you are holding them up to public ridicule by posting your diatribe on an internet forum.

I've got nothing to be affraid of, I'm just making a comment on how unprofessional this post makes you come across.....
 
Tokkelossi said:
half the problem with this country is that people are scared to speak their mind.
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No, half the problem or more so, is the illusion of choice.

I think the more pertinent issue here is that from your post, it's the client that can identify you and your thoughts. :D

Tokkelossi said:
My client (USA fashion house) is my boss; art dir is hired in by them for shoot.
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It's your interests, myself and Mr Pan are considering.
 
Tomas Whitehouse said:
I think the more pertinent issue here is that from your post, it's the client that can identify you and your thoughts.
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Which, Tokkelossi has told us, they already know....Can't see the problem with the post. Entirely his choice to post it.

Anyhow, as long as the client is aware of the issue I'd do whatever the AD wants and take my cheque to the bank.
 
Back to the original post.

The Client is paying for the shoot and would of decided who is in charge of the shoot, if its you then the art director can only give input and its upto you to decided whether to take it or not.

Or

If the Art Director is in charge then you’ve got to do whatever he asks and if you know it won’t be what the magazine wants then you need to discuss if with him or possibly with the person that contracted you to the job.

It’s a bit like in my work, I have ways of doing certain things differently and sometimes better than what I’m told, I will put these ideas forward and if I’m told to do it the way they want then so be it as the buck stops with them. If it’s me making the decisions then the buck stops with me.
 
Ok, I phoned the client. Told them the issue. Client told art dir to 'work with me'. He left.

So ... just so we are clear:

George Bush Jnr if a fool. Has the deaths of many thousands on his hands.

Gordon Brown is a fool and has to go.

Vietnam was wrong

Robert Mugabe needs assassinating

Jordan is not as stupid as she looks

I am proud of these statments and stick by them :-)
 
Glad you've halfway resolved it, nothing worse than that situation.

Tomas & Flash, just answer the question and stop being :shrug::p;) :lol::lol::lol::lol:
 
You should have sent the Art Dir. off to the suppliers for a long weight :lol:
 
Tokkelossi said:
Ok, I phoned the client. Told them the issue. Client told art dir to 'work with me'. He left.

So ... just so we are clear:

George Bush Jnr if a fool. Has the deaths of many thousands on his hands.

Gordon Brown is a fool and has to go.

Vietnam was wrong

Robert Mugabe needs assassinating

Jordan is not as stupid as she looks

I am proud of these statments and stick by them :-)
Click to expand...

:lol::clap: Not many people willing to stand up and be counted nowadays :thumbs:
 
"So I was the Art Director at a fashion shoot recently, I had some really nice, interesting, modern ideas, but had trouble with the photographer.

He just wouldn't take direction but just wanted to keep on shooting the same old **** he's been shooting for the last 20 years..."

:D:D:D
 
Byker28i said:
"So I was the Art Director at a fashion shoot recently, I had some really nice, interesting, modern ideas, but had trouble with the photographer.

He just wouldn't take direction but just wanted to keep on shooting the same old **** he's been shooting for the last 20 years..."

:D:D:D
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I got to the phone first :p
 
Tokkelossi said:
George Bush Jnr is a fool. Has the deaths of many thousands on his hands.
Click to expand...

How very interesting, off topic but still, it seems your post has been answered many times over and believe it or not, my intentions were to help. :D

P.S contrary to what the media would have us believe, George, just like Barack, is/was the genuine article, a gallant President and to even consider that he has blood on his hands would be a blasphemous perversion of reality.

Conspiracy theory is it not?

IMO, Not. But wouldn't it be more realistic to say that George was a puppet and only guilty of representing the atrocities and not creating them? It was quite clear to many, that old George, wasn't the sharpest tool in the bag.

Trace the puppeteers strings all the way up to the handle and you'll see that it seems the blood is on the hands of the administrations or more accurately named - the Federal Reserve Banks.
 
I love it when topics go pointlessly off their intended route. I want to hear you guys tearing shreads from one another about libel etc ;)
 
So to sum this up:

Q. What would you do?
A. Get to the phone first.

:lol:
 
can we keep on topic please...
 
Merovingian said:
Surely you'd have established who had the last word re.creative direction before starting?
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This was going to be my point too. Who's got the final say? Photographer, then fine. Art Director? Then either fine, and lump it if you don't like the way the shoot goes, or tell them you don't work unless you have the final say.
 
I've never seen anything like this...
M8 sort your problems out in private, you come across as a total..well you get my drift.
As for your reputation after reading how you deal with problems... I wouldn't touch you with tweezers....
 
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