Where's the documentary photography?

[Ed Sutton]

In the review of TP in 2021 @sirch said "there is far too little documentary on here". Which got me wondering why documentary type photography doesn't seem to be popular among TP members.

Maybe most people don't have the time to devote to pursuing a project over a prolonged period? I can appreciate that fitting photographic sessions that can be time critical into a regular lifestyle probably isn't practical for most people. That said everyone has the opportunity to document the area they live in and what goes on there at times to suit them.

Or was Martin Parr right in saying; "Documentary is too real – it’s about the world, and I think people prefer the escapism of landscape and fine art photography."? Are most people hung up on making stand-alone 'wall worthy' pictures?

I've come round to being more interested in photography as a means of documenting things over time. I was originally in the 'stand-alone picture' camp, I've also been interested in photography as conceptual art, still am to a degree, but as I get older I'm seeing that my photos from the past don't have to be 'good pictures' to be interesting or informative records of what things looked like. So I have become more concerned with long term projects recording places, people and events which interest me.

I'm pretty sure that if any of my photos have a life after I pop my clogs it'll be those which show what things look like nowadays and not the carefully composed isolated pictures or the head scratching conceptual grids.

Does the lasting value of photographs lie in their documentary nature rather than in their aesthetic properties?

Does it matter if you're having fun?

 

[benc98]

One of my new year resolutions was to shoot a documentary project, honestly, I've no idea where to start.

Last year I had a vague idea of documenting people and activity in my town centre, with a view of narrowing down that scope once I found something specific about either the people or activity, or even something else that glued it together. Perhaps I can look back at that, but I didn't think it was working.

 

[droj]

To stir the pot, define documentary. Does it have to portray human activities? Because I'm tempted to say that most photography is documentary. And / or does it require a distinct temporal aspect?

And lasting value to whom?

 

[droj]

I didn't think it was working.

No reason why it wouldn't work, except that it would be down to you to get stuck in. And you'd have to be a people person along with being photographically confident ...

 

[sirch]

No it doesn't matter as long as you are having fun and I really do admire your tenacity with the project you do. I also think that you are correct that the vast majority of historic photos that people like viewing are those that show people and places in times gone by.

I think Martin Parr is correct but would also add the documentary is hard, challenging.

I don't think documentary gets very far without photos of people and I suspect that a lot of folk who hang around on internet forums perhaps shy away from face to face interactions with other people so there could be an element of this just being the wrong kind of place to find documentary 'togs. I also suspect that there are a lot of people on here who like owing and playing with the toys as much as they like taking and viewing photos and probably aren't prepared to go repeatedly to the same place or event purely to take photos.

Personally I really am in it for the decor (so called "fine art" I guess) type stuff, that is what I enjoy viewing and shooting

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Most of my photography tends, I think, towards the documentary. That's probably because I started out in newspapers and always felt that the purpose of a picture is to inform.

 

[droj]

the purpose of a picture is to inform

But to inform about some sort of thing in particular? Because it's hard to think of picture that isn't informative.

 

[Ed Sutton]

To stir the pot, define documentary. Does it have to portray human activities? Because I'm tempted to say that most photography is documentary. And / or does it require a distinct temporal aspect?

And lasting value to whom?

I agree that most photography produces documents, but for it to be documentary (to my mind) single pictures aren't enough. Every picture does not tell a story. I'm also becoming more interested in accompanying text. As the quote in my signature says "photos explain nothing; they describe".

I don't think documentary gets very far without photos of people and I suspect that a lot of folk who hang around on internet forums perhaps shy away from face to face interactions with other people so there could be an element of this just being the wrong kind of place to find documentary 'togs.

I'm not a very gregarious person, but I find showing an interest in what people are doing, and having a camera to hide behind (something a lot of documentary photographers mention) helps me talk to people and feel bold enough to photograph them. I follow a few documentary leaning folk on Twitter, sheep obsessives like myself mostly..., but others too.

 

[viewfromthenorth]

As someone who actively pursues ugly unphotogenic scenes to photograph, I regard myself more as a documentary photographer than anything else. I’m not so much project based though - although I have a couple of slow burning projects currently - if anything I have more of a body of work on a broad theme (grungy industrial / post industrial landscapes). I then slice and dice this in different ways to create zines and other stuff, thus creating narratives of sorts.

The main thing is though, I find it all - the creative process - enormously rewarding. The research, planning how and where to photograph beforehand, being at the place and finding the best way I can to capture the essence of the place / scene, faffing about with it in Lightroom for a bit and then presenting it as a print or online either on its own or in a way that complements the pictures in the gallery / zine / talk / etc.

I find all this more interesting than cameras and lenses, and the technical stuff associated with it, but hey we’re all different aren’t we!

 

[droj]

sheep obsessives like myself

There are more?????

 

[Ed Sutton]

There are more?????

At least three that I know personally!

 

[droj]

A single photo can be documentary, ie there doesn't have to be themed series ....

 

[Ed Sutton]

A single photo can be documentary, ie there doesn't have to be themed series ....

I read something yesterday, I forget who it was attributed to, Winogrand I think, that a single photograph doesn't tell you if someone is putting a hat on or taking it off.

A series/body of work has more of a narrative to it. IMO

 

[sirch]

narratives

That is thing isn't it? Bodies of work are one thing but putting together an edited set that creates a narrative is what sets a good documentary apart I think.

And having tried at a few zines that is where I struggle, I might have enough photos but they don't form a coherent narrative, a bunch of paragraphs with no plot.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

That is thing isn't it? Bodies of work are one thing but putting together an edited set that creates a narrative is what sets a good documentary apart I think.

Years ago I read a novel (translated from the French) about a press photographer, in which single news pictures were referred to as "documents". I never found out whether this was just a quirk of the translator but it seems reasonable to consider any image intended to inform as falling into that category.

 

[sphexx]

A single photo can be documentary, ie there doesn't have to be themed series ....

A single photo is a document (I think all of them are, landscapes, whatever) but the term documentary surely describes a group or series of photos documenting something.

 

[alexkidd]

I'm a documentary wedding photographer. Not sure if that helps? Haha

 

[ShinySideUp]

I don't think documentary gets very far without photos of people and I suspect that a lot of folk who hang around on internet forums perhaps shy away from face to face interactions with other people so there could be an element of this just being the wrong kind of place to find documentary 'togs.

I am definitely one of those people. I am a lifelong introvert who really only comes alive with people I know, and there are few of them. The thought of approaching someone in the street to ask for a photograph is one of the worst things I can imagine doing photographically. I have done it and I have had favourable responses but past success is no guarantee of future successful endeavours so it doesn't become any easier; the last person I asked to photograph was just as difficult as the first person. At my age I have to accept that there is no way round this so I stick to candids, landscapes, wildlife, close-ups, etc, etc. ad nauseum, anything but portraits of asked persons. It's a shame as I really like pictures of people, I'm just not very comfortable with them in real life. Therefore any documentary I did would almost certainly not include strangers who were aware I was taking a photograph. Hey ho, I've lived with it this long so it doesn't really bother me (much).

Having said the above I have just this minute had a thought about how I can do documentary involving people -- if I include their dogs. I see many people out walking them and I know almost all the dogs names (I have dogs, I'm not THAT weird). Hmm, glad I read this thread now, talking about dogs might just be a way in.

 

[Ed Sutton]

Having said the above I have just this minute had a thought about how I can do documentary involving people -- if I include their dogs. I see many people out walking them and I know almost all the dogs names (I have dogs, I'm not THAT weird). Hmm, glad I read this thread now, talking about dogs might just be a way in.

That's exactly it. Having a reason to ask someone if you can photograph them breaks down one's own reticence.

This one of my all time favourite bodies of work. Documentary? Art? both? https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/arnatt-walking-the-dog-t13076

 

[droj]

a single photograph doesn't tell you if someone is putting a hat on or taking it off.

No but it tells you where the hat is at that moment. A more complete narrative could be a video ....

A series/body of work has more of a narrative to it.

Quite so, generally.

just this minute had a thought about how I can do documentary involving people

You might equally consider photographing people doing tasks / activities?

the term documentary surely describes a group

A single document is documentary ... .

I'm a documentary wedding photographer.

So if an instruction sheet and a tax form were getting married, you'd be there?

 

[droj]

Bodies of work are one thing but putting together an edited set that creates a narrative is what sets a good documentary apart I think.

Yes that sounds like a crucial distinction concerning image sets ...

 

[Harlequin565]

Personally, I think there are lots of photos on talk photography that are of things, and not that many that are about things.

So many images with no supporting text, standing alone... Landscape-with-a-rock, sunset-with-a-tree, street photography that is literally just photos of people on the street, most on their phones or the back of their heads. It's not my cuppa (but fair play to those that enjoy it!) with the exception of the nature & macro stuff as they are photos of things that I wouldn't normally see. (Not bashing that kind of photography - it's very popular after all - just saying it's not for me)

Which got me wondering why documentary type photography doesn't seem to be popular among TP members.

I wonder if it's as simple as the majority of people who share images just aren't interested in it. For me, it took me a good ten years of formal portraits and mountain-with-lake-plus-rock before I got bored and wanted to do something different. If I hadn't got bored, I might still be doing it and wondering why people thought sheep in a field would be interesting.

My wife (for example) thinks my photography has got worse simply because most of my images are far less pretty. On the odd occasion she's flicked through a zine though, where one can start to see a narrative, the response has been a little more positive. But I still reckon she thinks I'm daft.

I'm just relieved that there is at least some interest in (what I would call) proper documentary here. The numbers might be very small, but they're perfectly formed. And they help me enormously on my journey. At least we're not drowning in it. That would be worse I think.

 

[droj]

Neither does documentary necessarily need human activities or people in shot - it can be documentary of place, etc.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

An editor I worked for, many years ago, told me that the purpose of a picture is to draw the reader's attention to the story. If it does that, it's done its job. If it distracts from the story, it's a failure.

Oddly enough, the advertising manager, at the same paper, told me the same thing.

 

[sirch]

Reading @Harlequin565 's insightful post above got me thinking that may be for a lot of people, on here at least, their photography is really only one side of the equation, on the other side is what else they enjoy so what we see are photos that are an intersection of photography with some other personal interest. Hence we get trains, mountains, birds, insects. I don't like town centres, shops or people and that is not somewhere I want to spend my free time so it would be a real effort to shoot "street".

 

[Topsy]

In the review of TP in 2021 @sirch said "there is far too little documentary on here". Which got me wondering why documentary type photography doesn't seem to be popular among TP members.

Maybe most people don't have the time to devote to pursuing a project over a prolonged period? I can appreciate that fitting photographic sessions that can be time critical into a regular lifestyle probably isn't practical for most people. That said everyone has the opportunity to document the area they live in and what goes on there at times to suit them.

Or was Martin Parr right in saying; "Documentary is too real – it’s about the world, and I think people prefer the escapism of landscape and fine art photography."? Are most people hung up on making stand-alone 'wall worthy' pictures?

I've come round to being more interested in photography as a means of documenting things over time. I was originally in the 'stand-alone picture' camp, I've also been interested in photography as conceptual art, still am to a degree, but as I get older I'm seeing that my photos from the past don't have to be 'good pictures' to be interesting or informative records of what things looked like. So I have become more concerned with long term projects recording places, people and events which interest me.

I'm pretty sure that if any of my photos have a life after I pop my clogs it'll be those which show what things look like nowadays and not the carefully composed isolated pictures or the head scratching conceptual grids.

Does the lasting value of photographs lie in their documentary nature rather than in their aesthetic properties?

Does it matter if you're having fun?

I've had a documentary style Blog going on for a year now documenting my exploration of Dartmoor, it started as a 52 project shot on my daily exercise from home during the lockdown but once travelling was allowed it became a much wider project across the whole of Dartmoor. I openned it on here as well with an alternative 52 https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/52-for-2021-a-variation-on-the-theme.720146/
Following on I've started another thread to cover the continuation https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/topsys-dartmoor-rambles.733079/
These threads only get some of the journey as it would be too much for all the story to be in one post, however, I always link my Blog where the full story can be seen https://www.ephotozine.com/user/topsyrm-149719/blog
I don't think documentary photography is going away but it is likely posted in places that don't readily show up in the What's New sections og Forums like this one.

 

[Harlequin565]

I've had a documentary style Blog going on for a year now documenting my exploration of Dartmoor,

I've really enjoyed looking at that blog. It reminds me very much of Fay Godwin's work and I recently picked up her "Drovers' Roads of Wales" which I was thinking of revisiting when I retire.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

I think a lot of what I shoot is 'classed' as documentary photography - its not 'exciting' as a genre and doesn't tend to produce single images which people fawn over, but over time and as a body of work can be substantial, meaningful and give a lot of context. I have several long term projects on teh go, and often supplement these with a short term - perhaps shot over half a dozen outings.

 

[myotis]

I think of documentary photography as "long term" story telling using photographs, compared to reportage photography which is more about single images that capture a "moment" in time. For me, multiple single images, without a coherent narrative connecting them, are photo-reportage rather than documentary.

However, both are subsets of Documentary photography (in spite of the duplication of the same name) where there is an expectation of honesty within the images, because of their potential historical, social or politically important "documents".

I am not a documentary photographer, but by far my favourite photography comes from documentary photographers, and the common theme is not driven by photography. They are driven by a passion for the story they want to tell, which always involves research and a deep understanding of the subject matter. Some were already photographers, but many became photographers because they had a story they wanted to tell.

I don't think documentary photography "has" to have people in it, but most of it does. As it's the story that makes it documentary, even if it doesn’t include people, but the photographs still tell a story it could still be labelled documentary. If having a label matters.

The story part is important, because it has a massive impact on how the photographs are taken and assessed, asking the question "how will this photograph help tell the story" is a million miles away from asking "will this look good on my, or someone else's, wall".

As for the lack of documentary photography on TP:

It's more difficult to produce "likeable" stand alone images, when making them as part of a documentary series. While there may well be individual documentary photographs that can stand alone, they are meant to be viewed and read in the context of the story being told. The Zine share seems a good place for TP members to share documentary photographs.

Documentary photography is hard work, it needs commitment, it needs organisation, and you need to have a meaningful story to tell. All the reasons I don't do documentary photography

I'm not sure if documentary photography is all that "obvious" to many people interested in photography. Photographic forums, Youtube, and other photographic media tend to focus on single image photography. And tend to emphasise the technical aspects, or self expression (emotional) aspects of photographs rather than the story telling.

I've linked to this before, and although it has a tedious sign in, as well as slightly irritating interface, the videos are some of the best available for getting a feel for documentary photography, with excellent presentation from people like Maggie Steber and John Stanmeyer.

VII Insider - The VII Foundation

© Nada Harib for VII Mentor Program© Espen Rasmussen/VII VII Insider VII Insider is a free online platform that takes you inside the profession of visual journalism to advance the production and analysis of new stories. VII Insider offers regular live presentations, an extensive video...

vii-insider.org

It also provide some tutorial type videos on things like story telling.

I also find Dan Milnor's youtube channel and the magazine (AG23) he co-edits useful:

https://www.youtube.com/user/SMOGRANCH/videos

AG23 HOME

Introducing the most personal Webflow template. 8 home pages, 2 portfolio styles, 3 blog layouts, 4 navigation styles and a huge pack of components. Perfect for designers, photographers and all creative people.

www.ag23mag.com

He gets sidetracked a lot on his Youtube channel, but there is a lot of very interesting material there about his move from press photographer, to documentary photographer, and to why he is no longer a professional photographer, but now works for Blurb along with undertaking personal projects.

 

[TimHughes]

This reminds me of the children in need / rankin "this is britain" project back in 2017 to document daily life. Can't remember if the end result included mountain-with-lake-plus-rock, I doubt it Should we do a talkphotography update for 2022?

 

[lindsay]

Interesting discussion. I've not had time for much in the way of photography for some time, but have had a few ideas for documentary series'.
One that I've liked on here has been "Meanygate Meanderings" which I think nicely fits this category.

 

[Harlequin565]

He gets sidetracked a lot on his Youtube channel

I really enjoy Daniel Milnor's stuff. His podcast also makes me chuckle and some of his photography anecdotes are most amusing.

 

[Topsy]

I've really enjoyed looking at that blog. It reminds me very much of Fay Godwin's work and I recently picked up her "Drovers' Roads of Wales" which I was thinking of revisiting when I retire.

Thanks Ian.

 

[Topsy]

I think Graham @myotis makes a good point here "It's more difficult to produce "likeable" stand alone images, when making them as part of a documentary series. While there may well be individual documentary photographs that can stand alone, they are meant to be viewed and read in the context of the story being told." The problem is when documenting one is generally on the move making record shots mostly hand held along the way and rarely is taking the time to frame a good subject in a good composition in the best light so stand alone good images are more luck than judgement IMHO. I tend to make reference notes where I have gotten "goog" images by that luck so that at some time in the future I can go back with the specific shot in mind.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

This site: https://bookauthority.org/books/best-selling-photography-books appears to have sales figures including books of documentary photography.

I make no claims as to its accuracy but if it is correct, documentary photography is not especially popular with readers.

 

[Lunkwill Fouk]

Which got me wondering why documentary type photography doesn't seem to be popular among TP members.

Or was Martin Parr right in saying; "Documentary is too real – it’s about the world, and I think people prefer the escapism of landscape and fine art photography."? Are most people hung up on making stand-alone 'wall worthy' pictures?

Probably because documentary photography, particularly Parr's style, is not interesting to most photographers. I don't think it's just because it isn't easy - people spend huge amounts of money on kit to photograph birds and then wait for days in a freezing hide in the hope of capturing a specific type of LBJ. Others get up early and drive hundreds of miles to get a sunrise in a pretty location. Suggesting it's 'too real' (whatever that means) for ordinary photographers is simply self-aggrandisement. Very often the documentary stuff is just a bit dull unless you have a specific personal interest.

Plus....

As someone who actively pursues ugly unphotogenic scenes to photograph, I regard myself more as a documentary photographer than anything else. I’m not so much project based though - although I have a couple of slow burning projects currently - if anything I have more of a body of work on a broad theme (grungy industrial / post industrial landscapes). I then slice and dice this in different ways to create zines and other stuff, thus creating narratives of sorts.

VFTN's work is certainly documentary, as is the work of some wedding photographers. Perhaps our definitions are too narrow and our criteria too exclusive?

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Perhaps our definitions are too narrow and our criteria too exclusive?

This is so often the case when people categorise something like photography. At the end of the day, photography is just a tool to capture images.

Categorising the use or function of the captured images is rather like following that white rabbit down the hole.

 

[Ed Sutton]

Probably because documentary photography, particularly Parr's style, is not interesting to most photographers. I don't think it's just because it isn't easy - people spend huge amounts of money on kit to photograph birds and then wait for days in a freezing hide in the hope of capturing a specific type of LBJ. Others get up early and drive hundreds of miles to get a sunrise in a pretty location.

Why isn't Parr's (or any other documentary photographer's) interesting to 'most photographers'? I think it's because people are stuck on teh idea that the everyday isn't interesting. But that's because they haven't learned how to look. I know people dismiss Ken Rockwell, but somewhere in his website is the advice for photographers to go to drawing classes. He's spot on.

Photography is all about looking. Being aware. finding the extraordinary in the ordinary as someone has put it. Instead a lot of photographers seem to make boring photos of spectacular subjects!

I got back in to photographer through wildlife. I'm sorry, but most of what passes for wildlife photography IS easy. That's why I moved away from it. The hard part isn't in the photography, just as you suggest. getting up early and spending pots of money to get photos is irrelevant to the difficulty of making pictures.

The problem is when documenting one is generally on the move making record shots mostly hand held along the way and rarely is taking the time to frame a good subject in a good composition in the best light so stand alone good images are more luck than judgement IMHO.

That's' the challenge, though. It is possible to make well framed, well exposed, pictures working in that way. It's a lot harder than photographing a bird on a stick!

 

[droj]

I think that a documentary can be a study of a place, an activity, or a topic, or some synthesis of any of those. A memorable example could be 'Agent Orange: Collateral Damage in Vietnam' by Philip Jones Griffiths, a humble pharmacist from North wales ...

Agent Orange: Collateral Damage in Vietnam • Philip Jones Griffiths • Magnum Photos Magnum Photos

Between 1961 and 1971 the United States dropped approximately 46 million litres of Agent Orange, Philip Jones Griffiths documents the on-going tragedy

www.magnumphotos.com

If you visit that page, centred towards the top there's a main image - don't ignore the scroll chevron to the right.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

I think it's because people are stuck on teh idea that the everyday isn't interesting.

...because it isn't.

We evolved in an environment where there were both opportunities that needed to be grabbed and dangers that had to be avoided. Our brains therefor store maps of the environment and highlight what wasn't there before, ignoring what was.

In the modern world, this behaviour has morphed into the search for novelty, which is why we look for the new and ignore the old. Of course, what is old and therefor ignored by one person, will be new and interesting to another.