Why 1/8000th sec?

redhed17

redhed17

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I was talking to some people today about cameras and mentioned that the shutter range on DSLRs is normally larger than compact cameras, usually from 30 seconds to 1/4000th - 1/8000th second. It then occurred to that the fastest shutter speed I've seen on a DSLR is 1/8000th.

Why is that? Any particular technical reason anyone knows about?

Better high ISO quality and a sunny day (some hope) could easily give faster shutter speeds.

My first digital camera, a Fujifilm S602Z Pro, apparently had a fastest shutter speed of 1/10000th second. :eek: Not sure I ever actually used the 1/10000th second, :shrug: but then that's not the point, :lol: I'd just like to know why all the manufacturers have all seemed to settle on the same upper limit?
 
Some dslrs have gone faster than the 1/8000. The Nikon D1 went to 1/16000 with an electronic shutter on it's sensor.

Just found this on wiki...

"Focal-plane shutter top speed peaked at 1/16,000 sec. (and 1/500 sec. X-sync) in 1999 with the Nikon D1 (Japan) digital SLR. The D1 used electronic assist from its sensor for the 1/16,000 sec. speed and its 15.6×23.7 mm "APS-size" sensor was smaller than 35 mm film and therefore easier to cross quickly for 1/500 sec. X-sync.[81]

However, with very limited need for such extremely fast speeds, FP shutters retreated to 1/8000 sec. (and 1/250 sec. X-sync) in 2003 – even in professional level cameras."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_plane_shutter lots of info there.
 
redhed17 said:
I'd just like to know why all the manufacturers have all seemed to settle on the same upper limit?
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The Wikipedia article on the focal plane shutter has some fascinating information about the design considerations.

Before you read it: Can you guess how fast the shutter curtains move, and how many "g" forces of acceleration they withstand? You'll be amazed.
 
redhed17 said:
My first digital camera, a Fujifilm S602Z Pro, apparently had a fastest shutter speed of 1/10000th second. :eek: Not sure I ever actually used the 1/10000th second, :shrug: but then that's not the point, :lol: I'd just like to know why all the manufacturers have all seemed to settle on the same upper limit?
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I still have and occasionally use one of them, I didn't know that it had a 1/10000 shutter speed, but you are correct, it does. Seems a little pointless when the maximum aperture is f2.8 and the max ISO at full resolution is only 400. Cant see you needing it really, which is why I have never realised it is there.
 
Thanks for the replies. :)

Some interesting reading there. :)

Sorry so late replying. Only just got back to a PC.

When I was talking about camera speeds, I assumed that 1/8000th second was the more prodominant shutter speed, but looking at Dpreview, it's mostly 1/4000th second. And that includes the newest Sony DSLRs. :shrug:

Obviously there is not a great need for faster shutter speeds. :shrug: :lol:


If any sports photographers looking in, what's the fastest shutter you've used?
 
Can't remember that last time I used a speed faster than 1/500th. Think my D200 would have a meltdown if I asked it to go faster!! :)
 
Using my Canon 85L at f1.2 and ISO 100 I can get 1/2000 or even up to 1/4000, but I cannot remember ever using above 1/4000.

Perhaps I'm not that bothered by camera shake :lol:
 
redhed17 said:
When I was talking about camera speeds, I assumed that 1/8000th second was the more prodominant shutter speed, but looking at Dpreview, it's mostly 1/4000th second. And that includes the newest Sony DSLRs. :shrug:
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Probably because the new Sonys are entry level and I think most entry level DSLRs go up to 1/4000th. The A700 goes up to 1/8000th, but I have never used anything near that. In fact I don't think I've ever shot anything that required more than 1/1250th.
 
I've never gone about 1/1250th, and that was taking sports prototypes head on coming up Eau Rouge at Spa doing about 180mph. They came out fine, if a tad static, so why you'd need 1/8000th is beyond me :shrug: Surely about about 1/2000th it makes little difference?
 
RichardC27 said:
I've never gone about 1/1250th, and that was taking sports prototypes head on coming up Eau Rouge at Spa doing about 180mph. They came out fine, if a tad static, so why you'd need 1/8000th is beyond me :shrug: Surely about about 1/2000th it makes little difference?
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There's always one :D I use 1/8000, not often but I do use it!

In fact I sometimes could do with 1/16000 (so resort to using 'below base' ISO100). [shooting at say f1.4 or even f2 in bright conditions]
 
RichardC27 said:
I've never gone about 1/1250th, and that was taking sports prototypes head on coming up Eau Rouge at Spa doing about 180mph. They came out fine, if a tad static, so why you'd need 1/8000th is beyond me :shrug: Surely about about 1/2000th it makes little difference?
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You do need it sometimes just to expose the scene properly. Especially with fast lenses in the sun.
 
Shutter speeds of 1/4000 or 1/8000 on a sunny day are a dead giveaway you've left the camera on ISO 800 or higher from the night before!!!!
 
I must admit, I rarely go above 1/1,000 but I can see why people need it.
 
It's a CMOS vs CCD thing, particularly due to how the data is read out and how the shutter must work. The D1 could sync at 1/16000 because it had a CCD sensor, not CMOS, and the data could therefore be read out of the sensor faster.

It's too much to go into here, but there's plenty of information on wikipedia, etc.
 
reddeathdrinker said:
Shutter speeds of 1/4000 or 1/8000 on a sunny day are a dead giveaway you've left the camera on ISO 800 or higher from the night before!!!!
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Lets see if your attitude changes when your 50mm f1.4 arrives.

As I said, I can easily use 1/2000 and up to 1/4000 with my 85L @ f1.2 at ISO 100. Why do you want a fast lens, if it is to use at f8 then save yourself some dosh and buy a slower variation.
 
If you want to shoot in bright daylight with f/1.8 etc a high shutter speed is simply necessary. I shoot wideopen on almost all my lens because im a bokeh whore, my nikon EM slr only does 1/1000 and because of the film i use (iso400) i have to shoot at f/11-f/13 in bright daylight and its still at the max of 1/1000. Think its time to get rid of it and get a fm2n :D
 
EdBray said:
Lets see if your attitude changes when your 50mm f1.4 arrives.

As I said, I can easily use 1/2000 and up to 1/4000 with my 85L @ f1.2 at ISO 100. Why do you want a fast lens, if it is to use at f8 then save yourself some dosh and buy a slower variation.
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Indeed, this was shot at f/1.8 iso100 1/3200

3373881262_2306262357_o.jpg
 
Problem with high shutter speeds is maintaining even exposure across the image, given that the slit is only a fraction of a mm at top speed. Combined with high frame rates, high x-sync speed, and reliability over the lifetime of the mechanism. The difficulties are mechanical, nothing to do with sensor types.

And I guess for exposure control the need for anything faster than 1/8000sec is very rare.
 
The higher shutter speeds are useful, especially when shooting in film. Often shooting at f/1.8 on Fuji Neopan 1600 would require a shutter speed in the region of 1/3200 to 1/4000 of a second.

Also, high speed capture, like taking a photograph of dripping water from a tap with FP flash would be possible using this kind of high speed shutter. There are people who use it, just not that many.
 
The higher shutter speeds are useful, especially when shooting in film. Often shooting at f/1.8 on Fuji Neopan 1600 would require a shutter speed in the region of 1/3200 to 1/4000 of a second.

Also, high speed capture, like taking a photograph of dripping water from a tap with FP flash would be possible using this kind of high speed shutter. There are people who use it, just not that many.
 
I find even iso 50 and 1/8000th can be quite limiting at f1.8. I need to get some ND filters really.
 
HoppyUK said:
Problem with high shutter speeds is maintaining even exposure across the image, given that the slit is only a fraction of a mm at top speed. Combined with high frame rates, high x-sync speed, and reliability over the lifetime of the mechanism. The difficulties are mechanical, nothing to do with sensor types.

And I guess for exposure control the need for anything faster than 1/8000sec is very rare.
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It has everything to do with sensor type.

The Nikon D50/70/1/others had interline transfer CCDs. The shutter was there to allow the CCD to sit in the dark to reduce noise, and to read the information off in the dark. For short exposures, the shutter opens, the CCD is gated on, the exposure happens, the CCD is gated off, the shutter closes.

That's also why the Nikon CCD cameras had so high flash sync speeds, because the curtains didn't need to be aligned.
 
Blapto said:
It has everything to do with sensor type.

The Nikon D50/70/1/others had interline transfer CCDs. The shutter was there to allow the CCD to sit in the dark to reduce noise, and to read the information off in the dark. For short exposures, the shutter opens, the CCD is gated on, the exposure happens, the CCD is gated off, the shutter closes.

That's also why the Nikon CCD cameras had so high flash sync speeds, because the curtains didn't need to be aligned.
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I guess you have a point :) One of the things we've lost with CMOS. Do you have a link to that aspect of CCD technology? Thanks.
 
Blapto said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge-coupled_device

There's plenty to get you started here.

I was talking about this with Woodsy in IRC, remembered this:
http://regex.info/blog/2008-09-04/925
Pretty interesting, I think. Click throught to the dpreview thread for more information.
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Martin/Blapto thank you so much for that link (and all the associated reading) :) Never seen that in such detail before. All camera nerds should look at that and marvel at what goes on when you press the release.

It's nothing less than a controlled explosion. Shutter blades accellerate at 500g, travel at 22mph, hit the buffers at 2,000g, then do the whole thing again 10 times a second. Meanwhile, the lens aperture opens and closes (relatively slowly apparently, depending on f/number), and the camera is checking and adjusting focus, metering, and firing precicely measured flash pulses throughout. Flippin amazing :eek:

The appeal of a solid state electronic shutter is obvious, but the real villain of the piece is the mirror. Out of the total operation time shown of 88ms, the mirror takes 38ms to get out of the way, and 30ms to get back down again. The actual exposure of 1/62sec only occupies about a quarter of the total time - those blades move like lightning.

Speed is one thing, but vibration is another. Just look at that mirror smashing up and down - it bounces three or four times before the shutter sets off. Mirror lock up :clap:
 
Blapto said:
As electronic viewfinder technology gets better I think we'll see the end of the mirror in the SLR. At least at the consumer end.
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Yes, Panasonic GH1 is already here. I started a thread about that camera, and what its technology offered, and it was met with indifference bordering on hostility :shrug:

They must be working like mad to get sensors to switch themselves on and off quickly, while also delivering continuous live viewing, and without messing up image quality.
 
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