Wild or captive

Nod

Krispy and Kremey
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Nod (NOT Ethel!!!)
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Either IMO.
 
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Mark
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So no images of mammals in wild and free ?

He means that they are confined by the shoreline of Britain, not that they are domesticated livestock (which most deer aren't).

I think that he's highlighting the misuse of 'captive'.
 
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Les
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Can I ask what section I use for photos I took of Deer in Attingham Park Shropshire.

Without wishing to start any arguments, as an ex-Gamekeeper who managed 300+ Red Deer -and around 120 Roe Deer within the estate I worked for, I will say captive as they are a managed herd - fed and culled by a Gamekeeper when required- just my thoughts on this

Les :)

Ps not bad shots by the way :)
 

Gremlin

*looks down* Yep, I'm a girl!
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Ingrid
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He means that they are confined by the shoreline of Britain, not that they are domesticated livestock (which most deer aren't).

I think that he's highlighting the misuse of 'captive'.

I know what he means I was just being facetious ;)
 
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I think it's just a question of semantics with very blurred margins between the definitions. The Royal Parks certainly see their deer as being "wild"

but as Les says they are managed so in a sense they are both wild and and managed. Are they captive? They are certainly confined but have the theoretical ability to leave the Royal Parks, wisely they never seem to.
What they are definitely not is tame. This an issue for both novice deer photographers and members of the general public. I have been visiting Bushy Park and to a lesser extent Richmond Park since the 1970's, initially as a dog walker and then as a parent and dog walker combined, it's only in the last 20 years as a photographer.

I have seen changing attitudes towards the deer over the years and there is a growing perception that they are tame. This is bad all round, the deer, particularly the fallow stags now expect to be fed by visitors at Bushy Park (and they are fed!) and become aggressive when frustrated. The Red Deer are dangerous to approach closely at any time particularly during the rut and birth season, May to July and I've seen runners, dog walkers and their dogs and photographers come to grief at these times.

People seem to me to be losing their respect and understanding of the natural world despite the excellent coverage by different media. Anyway, this has got absolutely nothing to do with the original topic so apologies but I just thought I'd have my say.....
 
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Rob
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I think it's just a question of semantics with very blurred margins between the definitions. The Royal Parks certainly see their deer as being "wild"

but as Les says they are managed so in a sense they are both wild and and managed. Are they captive? They are certainly confined but have the theoretical ability to leave the Royal Parks, wisely they never seem to.
What they are definitely not is tame. This an issue for both novice deer photographers and members of the general public. I have been visiting Bushy Park and to a lesser extent Richmond Park since the 1970's, initially as a dog walker and then as a parent and dog walker combined, it's only in the last 20 years as a photographer.
That’s an point. I’d assume Zoos would class their animals as ‘wild animals’ too even though they are in captivity.

It’s an interesting point at what stage is an animal that’s confined classed as captive? If you look at some smaller zoos where their animals are confined to a small enclosure it’s clearly captive. If you’ve ever been to Cabarceno wildlife park in Spain then you could say their brown bears in a huge enclosure could be wild but are clearly confined by fences. Could wildlife reserves in Africa be classed as classed as captive if there are fences surrounding the reserves? If deer in deer parks aren’t captive then the same could applied to zoos.

At the local deer park I visit the deer are definitely captive as there are 10ft high walls around the whole estate and cattle grids across the roads. It’s clear they are trying to keep them in the estate. There are a few escapees but that’s to be expected with a country estate. If you’ve ever tried to get close to deer in the countryside surrounding the estates the deer are very different to the ones in the parks. They are off like a shot as soon as they hear a noise. In the ones in the park just stare at you then carry on eating!
 
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Stu
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Robin's are confiding little birds,pretty much all wild in everysense of the word,yet I had a fella that would fly to me when called and sit on my shoulder,utterly wild utterly tame ???? Laurence I'd call deer in parks tame, frankly I think they are more dangerous than something 'erm free living...........It's incredibly difficult find the "right words here that mean the same thing to us all.


Rob, wild has implications in the image making world. it implies "things" in the image. I suppose to some it means a tog has stalked and waited for eons used a skillset nature togs call fieldcraft to overcome the natural instincts of the deer and make a frame. Those natural instincts with deer include running away from us. and if you work it long enough also a curiosity which can be tapped into. . I don't make many images in parks or of captive, ( by captive I mean they have a ruddy big fence around them)I have both locally. But when I did the deer just ignore me and the shutter racket. The free roaming nutters like the roe and fallow locally behave completely differently they will come some way to find out what the clicking is if I've managed to get in the same field as them that is !!


Parkland deer are managed but TBF all most all our deer are manged in the UK, This interests me personally as we humans are changing them, a human deer stalker doesn't make the same choices as a pack of wolves, there is a differnet selection process owned by us not nature . These animals aren't domesticated in parks ,but those very early stages of domestication are there,they are largely heavier and have bigger antlers sometimes are fed through the winter. and get less fearful of humans .I don't know but if an animal is prone to
showing aggression towards us then maybe there is a selection for temprement as well?

I wish there wasn't this debate about wild or captive and that we talked about how used to humans the subject is........... how humanized they are.. The term wild is so vague so wide ranging and pretty much tells me nothing. about what the image maker went through to make an image. Did I just walk up to it in a park walk up behind a fence or have to use everytrick in the book to get near enough for a portrait? I'd consider the red deer on Exmoor completely wild,but i've walked up to them too,no camo no effort ok wind in me face but little else.

Different deer present different problems I don't consider Parkland deer wild ( lol not captive either in many cases), but love seeing the images this time of year of the rut.of our larger three species. posted in " wild and free" I guess for many many folks these parkland deer are the only deer they get a chance to make an image of . so it's wonderful folks get out and make pictures. I worry though if we think of them as wild what word do we use for something that really is wild??

Lew ( @Shropshire lad) , you posted here after the ID thread in birds,is that right? Buddy the tip here is tell folks where and how you made your images in the first post. Our lovely mods can sort the rest out bless 'em :) as you have seen.

See nature image makers are aware that big competitions get won by folks telling lies,sure they get found out and there's hell up. Being honest in you first post is a damn good start to avoiding confusion.. As a newer member. you might not be aware how useful this can be

Lew nature photography is sometimes a strange world to me things fly over my head, forgive my long post. One of my joy's in life is trying to make deer images so I go on a bit it's a passion I guess.My favourite is probably our Roe my true native that lives around me Have fun with them mate just be very aware the three larger species can be scatty around now

take care lads fun debate !!;)

stu .
 
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