Working towards an RPS 'A' - all thoughts, ideas, help welcome.

Oops, that should read layers not levels... You can tell I am not a PS expert... Yes, I have sent the complaint to the head of the distinctions department. If they don't reply to me, then I will drive back down there... I feel very strongly about the suggestion that I cheated on an image... Hopefully, they will not try to duck and weave but there you go.

Thanks for your advice.
 
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Had the standard failure notice today without any acknowledgement of my concerns from a member of the distinctions department... Not sure whether I should make any further contact before the weekend.
 
Chipper said:
Oops, that should read layers not levels... You can tell I am not a PS expert... Yes, I have sent the complaint to the head of the distinctions department. If they don't reply to me, then I will drive back down there... I feel very strongly about the suggestion that I cheated on an image... Hopefully, they will not try to duck and weave but there you go.
.
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Cheated?? So your submission was for a category with rules which disallow any form of postproduction? I wouldn't mind knowing the subject. If that's the case then it's a simple matter of showing them the original RAW file as part of your defence against the comments.

As for getting a response, as yet I have had no acknowledgement of an e-mail I sent at the beginning of the week setting out some of my reasons for leaving - so it doesn't really surprise me that you have not had a fuller reply, that seems to be the case much of the time unfortunately.

If I were you I would sit on this for a few days and then telephone RPS HQ and arrange to have a conversation.
 
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Hi Lindsay - yes, I will do that much as I am still tamping. The word "cheating" was not used but the conversation was about a technique that I hadn't used ie double exposure which must be the same as layers. The category is Pictorial and only simple adjustments are allowed - so no cloning, no double exposure... Focus stacking and all that would not be permitted either. My panel is of birds from Slimbridge, mainly, and has 3 elements as part of a theme of personification... I would rather not post it here so If you PM me I could email you a JPEG of the hanging plan over the weekend. I am also thinking cynically, having a guideline which says make your complaint within a certain number of days, that no mention will be made of it. I know the ref never changes his mind but I am not sure what I can do about it as it seemed to be exactly what I wanted it to be. Patience... See what comes back, I suppose. Thanks for your interest.. :) You sound quite cheesed off with them.. Ttfn Lx
 
Actually, that's a darned good question I need to ask at tomorrow's Celebration of Distinctions.
All my caving images are taken by bracketing 5 stops and merging using layers; I don't consider it 'cheating' in any shape or form.
I'm thinking that Travel is the best category for me, but I need to check my images are within the rules.
If I get a definitive answer I'll let you know.
 
Chipper said:
Hi Lindsay - yes, I will do that much as I am still tamping. The word "cheating" was not used but the conversation was about a technique that I hadn't used ie double exposure which must be the same as layers. The category is Pictorial and only simple adjustments are allowed - so no cloning, no double exposure... Focus stacking and all that would not be permitted either. My panel is of birds from Slimbridge, mainly, and has 3 elements as part of a theme of personification... I would rather not post it here so If you PM me I could email you a JPEG of the hanging plan over the weekend. I am also thinking cynically, having a guideline which says make your complaint within a certain number of days, that no mention will be made of it. I know the ref never changes his mind but I am not sure what I can do about it as it seemed to be exactly what I wanted it to be. Patience... See what comes back, I suppose. Thanks for your interest.. :) You sound quite cheesed off with them.. Ttfn Lx
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OK, that's quite interesting. I know that other organisations with a Pictorial category have a different view and that does sound very restrictive given the breadth of subject matter such a category would cover.
 
DuncanDisorderly said:
Actually, that's a darned good question I need to ask at tomorrow's Celebration of Distinctions.
All my caving images are taken by bracketing 5 stops and merging using layers; I don't consider it 'cheating' in any shape or form.
I'm thinking that Travel is the best category for me, but I need to check my images are within the rules.
If I get a definitive answer I'll let you know.
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Of course it isn't cheating, and anyone who suggests that is weird. And yes, I do hear that kind of nonsense all the time - from hobbyists and amateurs, and some camera clubs. In an environment like a cave of course you have to blend a series of exposures - the other alternative is to 'cheat' by lighting the place :rolleyes:
 
DuncanDisorderly said:
Actually, that's a darned good question I need to ask at tomorrow's Celebration of Distinctions.
All my caving images are taken by bracketing 5 stops and merging using layers; I don't consider it 'cheating' in any shape or form.
I'm thinking that Travel is the best category for me, but I need to check my images are within the rules.
If I get a definitive answer I'll let you know.
Click to expand...
Hi Duncan,
What did you learn yesterday regarding your panel? I couldn't go yesterday as we had much arranged as it is my partner's birthday weekend. Feeling a bit calmer today... I can cope with disappointments...it's my sense of fair play which feels so compromised. I watched some of the Travel assessment at the photoshow in Birmingham. A couple of comments I remember are " you have 15 images to tell a story" and "it should make us want to visit the place." It will be interesting where they direct you. On Wednesday, some landscape work did this but it passed VA with flying colours. They also said only 2 poss 3 portraits which should be in the context of where they are taken. I wonder if that is in the advice pages.... Good luck.
 
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Chipper said:
... I watched some of the Travel assessment at the photoshow in Birmingham. A couple of comments I remember are " you have 15 images to tell a story" and "it should make us want to visit the place." It will be interesting where they direct you. On Wednesday, some landscape work did this but it passed VA with flying colours. They also said only 2 poss 3 portraits which should be in the context of where they are taken. I wonder if that is in the advice pages.... Good luck.
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So images of industrial decay, or what remains after war. They'd be much more important IMHO but wouldn't necessarily make me want to 'go there'. What about Afghan Girl, I'd call that a travel image, but I'm not sure the feel it conveys would make me want to visit a country mid civil war, does it even offer enough clues as to where it was shot?

I have no words to describe the small minds that are too common in these organisations.
 
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@Phil V - That's not what the travel guidelines say...
The overall category summary:
"Applications have no geographical limitations and should express the feeling of a time and place, portraying a land, its people or culture."​
There's nothing in the criteria about 'wanting to go there'. Here's the criteria in full:
  • Your submission should show clear evidence of a genuine knowledge and understanding of your theme.
  • The theme could, for instance, relate to a journey, to aspects of a particular place – landscapes, seascapes or architecture of a region, to an event or activity carried out in a place, or to people making up a community.
  • The images should accurately depict the theme.
  • The Statement of Intent should describe the theme being illustrated and particular important aspects of it.
  • There should be a strong content of related, but varied pictures to match the statement.
  • Care should be taken to avoid stereotyped images.
  • Image manipulation that significantly alters the truth of the situation or event is not permitted.
  • The use of some images recorded using High Dynamic Range (HDR) photography will be acceptable for an application in the Travel category provided the use of such a method does not alter the truth of the original scene. However, if High Dynamic Range (HDR) photography is used for images that make up a complete or substantial part of a submission, it should be entered in the Applied category.
Hence I thought the Caves of Mendip might be suitable, but to submit in Travel they would like more images from the broader caving scene, not just images from the caves; which seems reasonable.
My exposure bracketing is pushing their interpretation of the last point quite hard I but didn't get to question this as the Chair of the Travel panel took a look at the scope of what I'm doing and immediately said my work would be far better suited to the Applied category.

The Applied category is where adventure panels like mountaineering and scuba diving usually get submitted, so there is a strong precedent.
It gives me a challenge in that the criteria for Applied asks that the statement should not talk about the difficulty of capturing the images. At the moment that's most of my statement and I need a complete rethink about what it says.
There was nobody present from the Applied panel, but I was given lots of excellent advice and the RPS will put me in contact with the right people to mentor me through my application.

As I suspected, the RPS has never had a panel of caving images submitted. At 'F' that works massively in my favour - yay!
The great news is that my project is viewed as suitable materiel for a panel.
By submitting in Applied I don't need to constrain the images geographically; this will be a huge assistance as Mendip caves have a distinctive look.
One person commented that I might struggle to create 20 caving images with sufficient variety to form a panel; perceptions like this will also work in my favour and I'm happy to accept the challenge:)
The real biggie for me is the sheer image quality needed to apply at 'F'; I've got to raise my game quite considerably.
I reckon it is going to take at least a year to get the images I need.
 
DuncanDisorderly said:
@Phil V - That's not what the travel guidelines say...
The overall category summary:
"Applications have no geographical limitations and should express the feeling of a time and place, portraying a land, its people or culture."​
There's nothing in the criteria about 'wanting to go there'. Here's the criteria in full:
  • Your submission should show clear evidence of a genuine knowledge and understanding of your theme.
  • The theme could, for instance, relate to a journey, to aspects of a particular place – landscapes, seascapes or architecture of a region, to an event or activity carried out in a place, or to people making up a community.
  • The images should accurately depict the theme.
  • The Statement of Intent should describe the theme being illustrated and particular important aspects of it.
  • There should be a strong content of related, but varied pictures to match the statement.
  • Care should be taken to avoid stereotyped images.
  • Image manipulation that significantly alters the truth of the situation or event is not permitted.
  • The use of some images recorded using High Dynamic Range (HDR) photography will be acceptable for an application in the Travel category provided the use of such a method does not alter the truth of the original scene. However, if High Dynamic Range (HDR) photography is used for images that make up a complete or substantial part of a submission, it should be entered in the Applied category.
Hence I thought the Caves of Mendip might be suitable, but to submit in Travel they would like more images from the broader caving scene, not just images from the caves; which seems reasonable.
My exposure bracketing is pushing their interpretation of the last point quite hard I but didn't get to question this as the Chair of the Travel panel took a look at the scope of what I'm doing and immediately said my work would be far better suited to the Applied category.

The Applied category is where adventure panels like mountaineering and scuba diving usually get submitted, so there is a strong precedent.
It gives me a challenge in that the criteria for Applied asks that the statement should not talk about the difficulty of capturing the images. At the moment that's most of my statement and I need a complete rethink about what it says.
There was nobody present from the Applied panel, but I was given lots of excellent advice and the RPS will put me in contact with the right people to mentor me through my application.

As I suspected, the RPS has never had a panel of caving images submitted. At 'F' that works massively in my favour - yay!
The great news is that my project is viewed as suitable materiel for a panel.
By submitting in Applied I don't need to constrain the images geographically; this will be a huge assistance as Mendip caves have a distinctive look.
One person commented that I might struggle to create 20 caving images with sufficient variety to form a panel; perceptions like this will also work in my favour and I'm happy to accept the challenge:)
The real biggie for me is the sheer image quality needed to apply at 'F'; I've got to raise my game quite considerably.
I reckon it is going to take at least a year to get the images I need.
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And I hope you manage it and I'm sure it'll be rewarding.

But when I read comments like the one I quoted (which aren't in the rules) then it's proof of the disconnect between the stated aims of the organisation and the way those rules are applied by self important arseholes. And despite the rules working for you, can you guarantee that some half-wit isn't going to decide to put his own spin on the rules and decide your images aren't worthy?
 
@Chipper - at Celebration of Distinctions we saw two wildlife panels. One at 'A' and one at 'F'. Both were excellent and it was interesting to see the differences between the levels. The 'A' was pretty darned good with some of the images easily the best I've ever seen of those subjects. But the 'F' panel, WOW!
If your submission is viewable online I'd be willing to offer my 2p on how it compares with what I saw yesterday.

We viewed five 'F' panels, with the authors of two of them present to talk about their work; it was humbling to hear their stories.
Four of the five panels absolutely blew me away. They represent an incredibly high standard in all aspects, not just the image quality.
I'm concerned I may never reach this level, but it's going to be fun finding out :)

In summary, it was a an inspirational day and I stand by my recommendation to attend.
 
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Hi Duncan,
My panel wasn't a wildlife or nature panel, so it wouldn't compare at all as it is very different but thanks for the offer.. I do agree with you about the standard of those nature panels... They are amazing.. There seems to be an extreme emphasis on sharpness throughout that I saw at an advisory day- I would have thought that a case could be made for some differential focus to give depth if nothing else but there you go.

Hi Phil,
Whilst I am very disappointed, I am not vexed with the people themselves. They are volunteers and give up their time; I don't expect everybody to like what I did. I was very upset by the implication, as I see it, that I might have tried to do something that I shouldn't. Sure, there are going to be individuals who are, shall we say, not as humble as one might like. One certainly could have done with some coaching about how to feedback and the need to keep sarcastic opinions to himself.

On the other hand, we have just been discussing how amazing the work is of Fellows seen by Duncan yesterday- all the more reason to be humble you might think but not everybody is a self aware as we would like. I have learnt a lot to get this far. One fellow stood up and praised my panel highly. That would never have happened if I hadn't started on my L and then got the bug to go for my A. I am still proud of my work. I have to wait to see if my concerns are taken into account in the feedback.. I then have to decide how and / or whether I will continue with it. I know however that I am not a quitter and that this will help me develop my photography. So, the lens I was going to reward myself with for succeeding, I shall now get as an encouragement to keep going.

I will let you know how my concerns are treated in the coming weeks. I am sure they won't respond quickly. All the best.
 
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Well, haven't had official feedback yet. Have been told that the issue is one that they would always discuss and would not be a reason for failing; it would be switched to Creative so I feel somewhat better about that. I also have asked for the first advisory to be taken off my number of attempts as there was no Vis Arts fellow present to advise me on the VisArts advisory day and I followed their advice. The chair is going to look into that and I think he will. He also gave me a possible way forward with a couple of the images in the panel that I am considering. So, the bouncing back is beginning. As my camera club chair said...giving up now would be a waste of all that effort. He has a point. New lens? Wimberely head?
 
Hi Duncan,
Did you see the f panel based around the foxes that the chap had been getting close to for many years? I thought that they were fantastic. I will keep an eye out for the next celebration day... Wish I was going out today. Got to wait for man to fix dishwasher and two others to dig up bamboo clumps.. Luckily have a few photo magazines to read. Good luck with your work. Where are you in the country? all the best.
 
Hi Chipper - nope, the wildlife panel I saw was from the far North but was far wider in scope than one animal.
I'm based in Mendip. Feel your pain regards Bamboo, used to have Black Bamboo which was OK but the frost got it, and Green Bamboo which spread like wildfire with shoots appearing right across the lawn; took two years of attacking the suckers with a breadknife before I managed to kill it off - an truly evil plant.
Would love to have a look at your panel having heard so much about it :)
 
Well, bit of a sore spot! I don't have a website and I am not prepared to put it up here whilst I am waiting for the official feedback. I could email you a wee JPEG so that you could see it but I would need to know that you wouldn't do anything else with it.. Not being precious just cautious as it is something I am negotiating with the RPS over. Pm your email if you are happy to agree.

My partner worked in Somerset before moving back here.. First to get the job to enable us to move in together. We liked it down there... I am in the right area, yes?

The guys from a Gloucester firm turned up with a grinder, shovels and huge muscles and even helped me get it out of the bed in next door's garden - big oops. No doubt it will try and revive.. It is the vampire of plants! Watching Wimbledon, wishing I could get a press pass...

Thanks.
 
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Hi Chipper - I'm happy to wait till you are ready to share; will be great to finally get a look.
Yup - Somerset. Had opportunities to leave the area (work) but never could quite sacrifice living in the middle of an AONB with two good pubs in walking distance for a better paid job elsewhere.
Bamboo - unlikely they got all of the suckers. I recommend a garden patrol and whenever you find a new sucker hack as much of it as you can find it into small bits with a breadknife; very effective but new suckers will keep appearing for a long long time.
 
Then of course, there is the agent orange! Vampire patrol will be on my daily to do list. It feels doable now the guys have taken the big mass root clumps that I couldn't dig out without wrecking my shoulders.. :)
 
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And then of course I wake up early, vexed about it and feel like having a tantrum at the luck of the draw!
 
Well, back on the horse now... Have had an idea which may work after going out and experimenting at Slimbridge today..going to discuss it with my club chairman tomorrow...
 
Well, back on the horse now... Have had an idea which may work after going out and experimenting at Slimbridge today..going to discuss it with my club chairman tomorrow...
 
So, it seems the list on the RPS website is out of date and the Fellow who really liked my panel is a member of the Pictorial team.... Which means my panel inspires marmite reactions! Ah well... There you go. Thanks to some very helpful people I am getting on with the reboot and yesterday saw the power of Photoshop - which I don't yet have - and have had a second idea that might just be the thing! My brain is buzzing...
 
Well, I walked away after my second attempt was offered resubmission. Then, another topic crept up on me and after an Advisory Day in September last year and another in April this year, I am pleased to say that I now have my ARPS in Fine Art. Very chuffed indeed, especially with the comments of two of the Fellows and the Chair of the Fine Art distinctions group. I have learnt so much in the process, not just about photography, had terrific support from family, friends and fellow photographers at my club and can’t stop smiling. :D:clap:
 
Chipper said:
Well, I walked away after my second attempt was offered resubmission. Then, another topic crept up on me and after an Advisory Day in September last year and another in April this year, I am pleased to say that I now have my ARPS in Fine Art. Very chuffed indeed, especially with the comments of two of the Fellows and the Chair of the Fine Art distinctions group. I have learnt so much in the process, not just about photography, had terrific support from family, friends and fellow photographers at my club and can’t stop smiling. :D:clap:
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Congrats :)

Have you got a link to share/show the panel???
 
Box Brownie said:
Congrats :)

Have you got a link to share/show the panel???
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Hi. Thanks. No, no link - I may post a copy of the hanging plan in the club website. I will post in here when I get that far with my list of things to be done.
 
Chipper said:
Hi. Thanks. No, no link - I may post a copy of the hanging plan in the club website. I will post in here when I get that far with my list of things to be done.
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I look forward to seeing it when you are able to share it :)
 
Chipper said:
Well, I walked away after my second attempt was offered resubmission. Then, another topic crept up on me and after an Advisory Day in September last year and another in April this year, I am pleased to say that I now have my ARPS in Fine Art. Very chuffed indeed, especially with the comments of two of the Fellows and the Chair of the Fine Art distinctions group. I have learnt so much in the process, not just about photography, had terrific support from family, friends and fellow photographers at my club and can’t stop smiling. :D:clap:
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Well done! The Distinction itself is a worthwhile achievement, but like me, I got more out of the process of achieving it that I’ve used subsequently - I had to up my game in terms of post processing, printing and image selection / sequencing. I’ve since used these skills in my exhibitions and an upcoming book project, so it was definitely worth doing. The F distinction continues to elude me, but the other stuff I’ve been doing has more than made up for it and I’ll get there eventually!
 
Chipper said:
Well, I walked away after my second attempt was offered resubmission. Then, another topic crept up on me and after an Advisory Day in September last year and another in April this year, I am pleased to say that I now have my ARPS in Fine Art. Very chuffed indeed, especially with the comments of two of the Fellows and the Chair of the Fine Art distinctions group. I have learnt so much in the process, not just about photography, had terrific support from family, friends and fellow photographers at my club and can’t stop smiling. :D:clap:
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Awesome - well done :)

I spent a couple of days in London recently shooting a potential A panel, so if I ever get around to even looking at the images (let alone PPing them) I'll be in the same boat as you. I don't have a photo printer so I have the added faffing of finding one suitable from a lab or even buying one to make prints! Not a cheap job is it

Dave
 
:jaffa:
DG Phototraining said:
Awesome - well done :)

I spent a couple of days in London recently shooting a potential A panel, so if I ever get around to even looking at the images (let alone PPing them) I'll be in the same boat as you. I don't have a photo printer so I have the added faffing of finding one suitable from a lab or even buying one to make prints! Not a cheap job is it

Dave
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Thanks. :ty:No not cheap at all but you can’t take it with you:)
 
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