Yashica Mat 134G Problems / Questions

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Big-Jim

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Dear All,

New to this forum and new to TLR ! I purchased a Yashica Mat 134G in near mint condition. I have now run two rolls of 120 film through it and have noticed the following :
  • Having loaded both films, after taking the first shot the winder is stuck. I play around until I can double expose the first frame and then the winder works perfectly for the rest of the film. Any idea what's up here ?
  • Advancing the film. Advancing to the next frame on the first film was half a turn of the crank. Second film just over half. For both films the point the crank matches with the right frame number being shown. On You Tube I've seen films where people seem to crank 3/4 or a full turn to advance a frame. In your experience what is normal ?

Many thanks for any help.
 
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Hi Jim.

I have no answer for you but just wanted to say welcome to TP! I'm sure someone knowledgable will be along soon enough.
;)
 
first of all I havnt got a mat ,,,,so I don't know what im talking about ,,,,,,,,but on the first point im wondering how you can manage to take a second exposure if you cant wind it on ,,,im wondering if the film is loaded the right way ,
as for how far you have to turn the crank to wind on to the next frame half a turn seems about right ,,,,about the same for my flex
and the bit where you say
For both films the point the crank matches with the right frame number being shown
I don't understand what you mean,,,
 
Possibly a daft question, but have you loaded the film correctly?

You need to wind it on with the back of the camera open until the arrow on the film backing paper aligns with the green arrow in the camera. After that, close and lock the back and wind the film until the crank stops. Then wind the crank back the other way, anti-clockwise, until it stops (it’ll be at the one o’clock position as you look at the crank). The shutter will now be cocked for the first frame. Repeat the wind on / wind back action after each shot until the film is finished, at which point you’ll be able to wind the film on continually to get it all on the take-up spool.

The amount you have to wind on after each frame will change as you advance through the roll as the amount of film on the spools transfers from one to the other.
 
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Big-Jim said:
Dear All,

New to this forum and new to TLR ! I purchased a Yashica Mat 134G in near mint condition. I have now run two rolls of 120 film through it and have noticed the following :
  • Having loaded both films, after taking the first shot the winder is stuck. I play around until I can double expose the first frame and then the winder works perfectly for the rest of the film. Any idea what's up here ?
Many thanks for any help.
Click to expand...
I've had this just recently on mine and I don't know why, since it was fully serviced about a year ago. It's as if the shutter doesn't cock properly, but then works fine after that. Unfortunately I don't use the camera often enough to see if it always happens, or if it is only one make of film, or whatever. Not much help, but at least you know you're not alone and it's possibly saved you sending it off for repair!
 
donut said:
first of all I havnt got a mat ,,,,so I don't know what im talking about ,,,,,,,,but on the first point im wondering how you can manage to take a second exposure if you cant wind it on ,,,im wondering if the film is loaded the right way ,
as for how far you have to turn the crank to wind on to the next frame half a turn seems about right ,,,,about the same for my flex
and the bit where you say
For both films the point the crank matches with the right frame number being shown
I don't understand what you mean,,,
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply. As far as I know the film was loaded correctly. I lined the arrows up with the 120 marker before closing the back.
I wind on until the film locks. Take a shot. Crank is stuck. I've then played round with the self timer switch marked M & X, depressed the
shutter a few more times and something in this allows me to double expose. Then I can wind on normally.

> For both films the point the crank matches with the right frame number being shown

Sorry I should have been clearer. I have read that people had problems winding the film with the crank stopping before reaching the next frame.
In my case even if it stops at half a turn it is always stopping when the correct exposure number is displayed.
 
FishyFish said:
Possibly a daft question, but havve you loaded the film correctly?

You need to wind it on with the back of the camera open until the arrow on the film backing paper aligns with the green arrow in the camera. After that, close and lock the back and wind the film until the crank stops. Then wind the crank back the other way, anti-clockwise, until it stops (it’ll be at the one o’clock position as you look at the crank). The shutter will now be cocked for the first frame. Repeat the wind on / wind back action after each shot until the film is finished, at which point you’ll be able to wind the film on continually to get it all on the take-up spool.

The amount you have to wind on after each frame will change as you advance through the roll as the amount of film on the spools transfers from one to the other.
Click to expand...
Thanks a lot for taking the time to reply. As mentioned above I aligned the arrows correctly, closed the back and wound the film until it stopped and frame number 1 is shown.
Interesting in your post is that you suggest after this I should then wind counter clockwise in the other direction until I reach a second stop point. I had not heard that before. Only that I should wind back until I can place the winder back in its housing. Perhaps this is the cause ?
 
Peter B said:
I've had this just recently on mine and I don't know why, since it was fully serviced about a year ago. It's as if the shutter doesn't cock properly, but then works fine after that. Unfortunately I don't use the camera often enough to see if it always happens, or if it is only one make of film, or whatever. Not much help, but at least you know you're not alone and it's possibly saved you sending it off for repair!
Click to expand...
Good to know ! BTW which film were you using ? I'm using Portra 400 120. When you have this problem how were you managing to get the film to advance past exposure 1 ?
 
Big-Jim said:
Thanks a lot for taking the time to reply. As mentioned above I aligned the arrows correctly, closed the back and wound the film until it stopped and frame number 1 is shown.
Interesting in your post is that you suggest after this I should then wind counter clockwise in the other direction until I reach a second stop point. I had not heard that before. Only that I should wind back until I can place the winder back in its housing. Perhaps this is the cause ?
Click to expand...

When you wind back it will come to a hard stop. This will always be at the one o’clock position so you can fold the lever into the housing. After most shots this will take less than a single turn, but I think it can be longer at the first frame, so wind it until it stops.
 
Big-Jim said:
Good to know ! BTW which film were you using ? I'm using Portra 400 120. When you have this problem how were you managing to get the film to advance past exposure 1 ?
Click to expand...
I understand that messing with the M and X can cause problems, so I don't touch that. I've been shooting b&w that's way out of date, and had wondered if it was a problem due to the film having been rolled tight for many years, but I don't know. I had also wondered if I had locked the shutter release and played with that, but can't say for definite. What I do know is that I matched up with the film start arrow, whereas I usually wind it slightly further before closing the back.
 
Nomad Z said:
Which says...

1. First, turn the Crank-handle all the way in a clock wise motion (toward [1]).
2. Then, wind it all the way in a counter clockwise motion (toward [2]) to charge the shutter.
Click to expand...

Aye, I've found step 1 isn't always the same length of wind either, it seems to vary as the film progresses, which felt a bit unnatural to me to begin with
 
VirtualAdept said:
Aye, I've found step 1 isn't always the same length of wind either, it seems to vary as the film progresses, which felt a bit unnatural to me to begin with
Click to expand...

This is an assumption so I'm likely talking out of my posterior but I'll try explain as I see it:
Iinitially the take up reel is empty so one complete revolution will draw xx centimeters of film onto the spool, as that take up spool gradually fills up with film, each revoloution is going to drawer xx centimeters PLUS a few additional mm thus the amount of spool turn required to keep the same frame spacing will be ever so slightly less...I think:thinking:
This is too confusing for a Sunday, in fact too confusing for me regardless of day! :LOL:
 
It certainly seems sound reasoning that as the diameter of the take up spool increases (with extra film thickness(s) being added) then its circumference will also increase (a mathematical law that can't be broken). And as one complete revolution would add one circumference's worth of film, then the amount will increase as the film is wound on.

On the other hand, the same applies to the take up spool in 35mm cameras, and there the wind on lever (in my limited experience) has a fixed length of travel, invariant from frame 1 to frame 42 (as I used to get with self loading). From this I conclude that there must be some sort of clever gearing employed to equalise the throw; and that this could also apply to roll film cameras if the makers choose to do so.
 
I've seen this on lever wind TLRs in the dim and distant past. If I recall correctly it's due to the pin on the wind mechanism failing to move the lever that cocks the shutter.
 
The amount of rotation of the crank should vary as the film is used. In my LM, there's a toothed wheel on a hinged axle that engages with the back of the film on the take-up spool. This will track the rotation in terms of circumference - it's driven round by the film passing under it, which means that it always rotates by a certain number of degrees for a given length of film passing under it. The axle is hinged at the other end from the toothed wheel (somewhere inside the camera) and will have a drive linkage that can accommodate the change in angle as the take-up spool fills up with film.

The actual rotation of the spool is still directly through a linkage at the end, and it's the friction between the back of the film and the toothed wheel that then drives the hinged axle.
Every time the axle rotates, a pin or similar moves to stop the film advance crank from rotating clockwise and the frame counter increments. There will be special cases for winding to the first frame and to the end of the roll after the last frame.

So, the amount of rotation of the crank depends on how much film has been wound onto the take-up spool. If it's near the start, the circumference of the spool is small, meaning more rotations of the spool are needed to get the toothed wheel to turn the right amount to increment the counter and activate the stop pin. If it's near the end, less rotations of the spool are needed.

I can't say why the crank needs to be turned anticlockwise to cock (or charge) the shutter. Given that there will always be some amount of clockwise rotation of the crank when winding on, I'd imagine the shutter cocking action could be incorporated into that. Perhaps there would be a risk of firing the shutter without having the next frame fully wound on - if the crank rotation reduces with each frame, then the shutter cocking would have to be at the start of the rotation, which would mean the shutter could be ready when there is still winding to be done on the earlier frames. Mechanical linkages/stops could be incorporated to prevent unintentional shutter release when not fully wound on, but maybe the reverse motion was just mechanically easier.
 
Nomad Z said:
I can't say why the crank needs to be turned anticlockwise to cock (or charge) the shutter.
Click to expand...
I've never come across a TLR where it does. It's the forward motion that pushes the shutter cocking lever at the end of the wind lever's travel. If you ever come across a Mamiya C33 or C330 the cocking mechanism is exposed so you can see just how it works.
 
StephenM said:
On the other hand, the same applies to the take up spool in 35mm cameras, and there the wind on lever (in my limited experience) has a fixed length of travel, invariant from frame 1 to frame 42 (as I used to get with self loading). From this I conclude that there must be some sort of clever gearing employed to equalise the throw; and that this could also apply to roll film cameras if the makers choose to do so.
Click to expand...

35mm cameras have a clutch on the take-up spool. Gearing drives the sprockets, which controls the length of film that's wound on for each crank of the lever. It also controls the rotation of the take-up spool, which is set to rotate at least as much as is needed for the start of the roll (smallest diameter, most rotations). As the diameter of the taken-up film increases, the clutch on the take-up spool slips, allowing the spool's rotation and changing circumference to match the amount of film that's being wound onto it.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I've never come across a TLR where it does. It's the forward motion that pushes the shutter cocking lever at the end of the wind lever's travel. If you ever come across a Mamiya C33 or C330 the cocking mechanism is exposed so you can see just how it works.
Click to expand...
Just going on what the manual says, although it uses the term 'charge the shutter'. Maybe it cocks during film advance, but has some interlock to prevent shutter release until the crank is reversed - the shutter in my LM won't fire until the reverse crank thing is done (button can be pressed, but nothing happens).
 
Nomad Z said:
Maybe it cocks during film advance, but has some interlock to prevent shutter release until the crank is reversed
Click to expand...
That's exactly right. All TLR's seem to use Compur/Copal style shutters which have a cocking lever protruding from the shutter mount. In many old folding cameras and knob wind TLRs this lever is shaped to be set by finger pressure. Lever wind TLRs generally have the cocking lever hidden behind the front cover of the focusing panel. The wind mechanism has a linkage where the final section bears on the cocking lever in such a way that the lever is depressed (or lifted) as the wind lever completes its travel. If this linkage becomes sloppy it can't always exert sufficient pressure to depress (or in some cases lift) the cocking lever.
 
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