YN622c vs PW Flex TTL system

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Calzor Suzay

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I have the PW Flex, mini & AC3 now on two 430 EX IIs but was wondering if it's practical to sell and buy into the YN622c with cash left over.

Are there advantages/disadvantages of the two systems? taking cost out of it as I already have the PW stuff :)
 
Advantages? Off the top of my head....

Focus Assist (worth the admission price alone, and amazing that nobody else offers it).

Multiple redundancy (back-ups) through being much cheaper.

Better frequency (2.4GHz) on an international standard. No silly socks required.

Better reliability (though admit that my PWs flex system were the mkI very early stuff and soon went back to their makers). Never had a single problem from any of my 6 622s.

Doesn't blow up your 580exIIs.

Seems to work exactly to standard Canon wireless protocol, and therefore 'appear' to be compatible with current and future Canons as they are released. (PW went their own merry way interpreting Canon protocols and need to reverse engineer new models which frustrates many).

New dedicated 622TX in October which will give an LCD control panel.

Fully compatible with excellent Yongnuos TTL guns like the £100 568, which means you can buy spare flash backups cheaply and hang them off weird/dangerous location (like brollies in the wind) without fear of losing £500+ (PW+580exII) from one fall.
 
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For my money, the YN 622 wins every which way, except in three unique ways:

- PW Mini/Flex has Peak-Hypersync, allowing you to shoot at up to 2/3rds stop faster shutter speed than normal x-sync, with no loss of light.
- Optimised High Speed Sync gives about one stop more brightness with Canon guns.
- Optimised second-curtain sync works much better than OEM.
- Oh and a fourth - optimised Tail-Hypersync.

The exact benefits vary by camera model, and work best with fast-shutter-cycle cameras like Canon 1D series, 7D. All very useful outdoors, especially action.
 
HoppyUK said:
- Optimised High Speed Sync gives about one stop more brightness with Canon guns.
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But unfortunately frys your 580s. No way I'm risking losing a £400 gun, or worse look like an uncle bob at a wedding.
 
HoppyUK said:
For my money, the YN 622 wins every which way, except in three unique ways:

- PW Mini/Flex has Peak-Hypersync, allowing you to shoot at up to 2/3rds stop faster shutter speed than normal x-sync, with no loss of light.
- Optimised High Speed Sync gives about one stop more brightness with Canon guns.
- Optimised second-curtain sync works much better than OEM.
- Oh and a fourth - optimised Tail-Hypersync.

The exact benefits vary by camera model, and work best with fast-shutter-cycle cameras like Canon 1D series, 7D. All very useful outdoors, especially action.
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... and five - 622's don't do remote shutter release! :)

I've got the PWs and occasionally wonder if I was daft given the cost, but the remote shutter trigger is a deal breaker in my case.

The downside of PWs is that they are notoriously fickle - you absolutely have to switch them on in a set order etc. Sometimes I revert to using 602s for the simplicity, but they don't have the range that PWs do!
 
DemiLion said:
... and five - 622's don't do remote shutter release! :)

I've got the PWs and occasionally wonder if I was daft given the cost, but the remote shutter trigger is a deal breaker in my case.
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Deal breaker? Why not just use something like a 602 as a dedicated separate shutter trigger, for all of £17. I take it you need another two PWs for shutter, unless the flex has a feature I'm not aware of?
 
Kris said:
Deal breaker? Why not just use something like a 602 as a dedicated separate shutter trigger, for all of £17. I take it you need another two PWs for shutter, unless the flex has a feature I'm not aware of?
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Yes it's a deal breaker. 602s don't have the range.

I don't use them for shutter release and as lighting triggers at the same time, so that isn't an issue.
 
Hmmm quite a bit of food for thought there. I've read it a few times that the YN622c doesn't have a firmware update route but with them adopting the Canon TTL codes is this an issue?

I can't remember the exact name but does the YN622c have the speed cycler of the PW where you can have 2 flash and they fire alternately?
 
Calzor Suzay said:
Hmmm quite a bit of food for thought there. I've read it a few times that the YN622c doesn't have a firmware update route but with them adopting the Canon TTL codes is this an issue?

I can't remember the exact name but does the YN622c have the speed cycler of the PW where you can have 2 flash and they fire alternately?
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It was an initial concern when they launched, but it doesn't appear to be a problem and they work with new Canon SLR models released since. They must have really cracked the Canon Master flash (and its wireless protocols), which is what the Canon body is convinced the 622 actually is. The 622 is just a radio bridge between the body and the flash.

No, it doesn't offer any such alternate mode. It only really offers what Canon offers with its wireless protocols, but can break out slightly from them in what YN calls mixed mode, where manual and ttl can be used at the same time (but the manual guns are subsequently not remote controllable in mixed mode).
 
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Kris said:
But unfortunately frys your 580s. No way I'm risking losing a £400 gun, or worse look like an uncle bob at a wedding.
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Anybody know what the score is here with 600EX-RT and PW Mini/Flex?

I thought I read somewhere (can't find it again though) that the new Canon 600 guns don't get fried in HSS mode, or suffer RF interference probs.
 
Well I've sworn at the PW's enough, and bought myself some YN622's so far I'm really happy it's almost impossible to get them to not fire, whilst I found myself whispering incantations every time I was relying on the PW's.

It came to a head last week when 2 weddings on the trot, I used them for some OCF outside (generally stable) then walked into the venue and set a flash on a stand for the 1st dance, on both occasions the flash just refused to fire - there's no time to look into 'why' you just have to go to plan B and carry on shooting. I decided life is too short to just not take the easy option.
 
Phil V said:
Well I've sworn at the PW's enough, and bought myself some YN622's so far I'm really happy it's almost impossible to get them to not fire, whilst I found myself whispering incantations every time I was relying on the PW's.

It came to a head last week when 2 weddings on the trot, I used them for some OCF outside (generally stable) then walked into the venue and set a flash on a stand for the 1st dance, on both occasions the flash just refused to fire - there's no time to look into 'why' you just have to go to plan B and carry on shooting. I decided life is too short to just not take the easy option.
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Possible RF interference probs with all the disco electronic gubbins?

I've always thought that PW's insistence on using the old 433 frequency with the Mini/Flex system (for reverse compatibility reasons) was a huge mistake...
 
Phil V said:
Well I've sworn at the PW's enough, and bought myself some YN622's so far I'm really happy it's almost impossible to get them to not fire, whilst I found myself whispering incantations every time I was relying on the PW's.

It came to a head last week when 2 weddings on the trot, I used them for some OCF outside (generally stable) then walked into the venue and set a flash on a stand for the 1st dance, on both occasions the flash just refused to fire - there's no time to look into 'why' you just have to go to plan B and carry on shooting. I decided life is too short to just not take the easy option.
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Could be that one item went to sleep? The PWs are very sensitive to the order that it is turned on (flash first working back to the camera).

I had one of the first sets in the UK, and it was patently obvious even then that they were not ready for market. This was pocket wizard, I must have been doing something wrong! Rumour has it they beta-tested them on a straight run of consecutive Canon 580exIIs, rather than test on random ages/serial numbers. Of course, in those days, PW were taking them back with no questions asked. They still offer a 90 day return in the US I think, so people can try them out.

Their Achilles heel is the frequency insistence for backwards compatibility, rather than the most suitable frequency.
 
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HoppyUK said:
Anybody know what the score is here with 600EX-RT and PW Mini/Flex?

I thought I read somewhere (can't find it again though) that the new Canon 600 guns don't get fried in HSS mode, or suffer RF interference probs.
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HSS - I doubt if anybody would risk it. I wouldn't. Trying to make a gun have capabilities for which they were never designed is asking for trouble.

If I were Canon with a new radio system, the last thing I would do is change the gun to allow a competitors product to work properly.

If you're purchasing 600exrts, then you are probably doing it for the radio compatibility (they are almost identical to the 580exIIs apart from the RT). Unless somebody had legacy equipment and wanted to retain their PWs, which I think unlikely, then we might not know.

The PW flick forum would probably be your best bet, but it's not exactly standing room only.

http://www.flickr.com/groups/pocketwizards/discuss/
 
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Touch wood :) , can't say I've ever had any issues with what order I turn them on or any interference with them. For the amount of times I actually use them in anger they're quite a pricey toy to have in the bag. Might order a set of 3 YN622c and see how they perform then sell of the PW system if I'm happy :)

Only downside I can see is the 'mixed' mode of manual and TTL with the AC3 you can do this so easily remotely and I have on a couple of times used the speed cycler of the PW to shoot at 8fps for action shots.
 
Yeah I did look at that after you mentioned it originally, I thought ack! gotta wait for some new compatible system but it's just an add on to the current one and replaces a transceiver with a dedicated transmitter.
 
I should have been clearer, it's not a new system.

Yes, it's a new dedicated transmitter to work with the current transceivers.
 
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Kris said:
I should have been clearer, it's not a new system.

Yes, it's a new dedicated transmitter to work with the current transceivers.
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I do help they're building a lot of them prior to launch:D
 
Kris said:
HSS - I doubt if anybody would risk it. I wouldn't. Trying to make a gun have capabilities for which they were never designed is asking for trouble.

If I were Canon with a new radio system, the last thing I would do is change the gun to allow a competitors product to work properly.

If you're purchasing 600exrts, then you are probably doing it for the radio compatibility (they are almost identical to the 580exIIs apart from the RT). Unless somebody had legacy equipment and wanted to retain their PWs, which I think unlikely, then we might not know.

The PW flick forum would probably be your best bet, but it's not exactly standing room only.

http://www.flickr.com/groups/pocketwizards/discuss/
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You may be right Kris, though I can also see that the opposite might be true! Anyway, I just emailed PW to see what they say.
 
Well for £80 I've bought a pack of three to see how I go. If I'm happy with them I'll probably put the PW set up for sale on here. Nothing wrong with them and pretty bomb proof for me but for the limited use I make of them I can recoup the money back a bit.
 
HoppyUK said:
You may be right Kris, though I can also see that the opposite might be true! Anyway, I just emailed PW to see what they say.
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Good news for Canon users :) PW just got back to me re the issues with Canon 580EX II guns, namely RF interference cutting range, and prolonged use of optimised HSS causing the flash to fry itself.

It seems like the new Canon 600EX-RT has sorted both problems. Here's their reply:

"...As soon as we received our own 600EX-RTs, the first thing we did was measure the units for RF interference issues and found none of the same issues that were present with the 580EX II. We also checked and tested the new flashes to see if we could cause the same HSS failure that was present in the 580EX II and were unable to make this happen. From our internal testing it appears as if the issues form the 580EX II are not present in the the 600EX-RT at all.
"Along with this good news I can also tell you that we have received zero reports from customers experiencing either of the issues with the new canon flashes."
 
HoppyUK said:
Good news for Canon users :) PW just got back to me re the issues with Canon 580EX II guns, namely RF interference cutting range, and prolonged use of optimised HSS causing the flash to fry itself.

It seems like the new Canon 600EX-RT has sorted both problems. Here's their reply:

"...As soon as we received our own 600EX-RTs, the first thing we did was measure the units for RF interference issues and found none of the same issues that were present with the 580EX II. We also checked and tested the new flashes to see if we could cause the same HSS failure that was present in the 580EX II and were unable to make this happen. From our internal testing it appears as if the issues form the 580EX II are not present in the the 600EX-RT at all.
"Along with this good news I can also tell you that we have received zero reports from customers experiencing either of the issues with the new canon flashes."
Click to expand...

It is good news.

But who amongst us would buy 600ex-rts (and all the fabulous advantages of them) and use four year old Pocket Wizard Flexs with them? I don't see the logic, unless you can't afford more than one gun at the moment, but then you wouldn't be buying a £470 flash. Also, I think it took a while for the Arcing of the HSS PW hack to become evident on 580s.

I think we were due for PW Flex mark IIs a few years ago, but that boat has now sailed.
 
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ding76uk said:
Can you control the flash in manual mode in the same way you can with the PW?
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The YN-622C triggers can handle E-TTL, Manual and Multi remote control. They require bodies and flashes from 2007 on for full capabilities, but can sync earlier Speedlites, and strobes, also.

See TOYUG pdf
 
Having had a play with them briefly over the weekend they work fairly well.

The only issues I had where having to go back through the whole menu system to get to the ratios or power, with the AC3 you can intsantly change and chimp.
I know it's not the YN-622C but with the ratio system you don't get three independant groups like with the PW, it's an A:B ratio with C on exp compensation.
When in mixed mode you need to set the power of the manual flash at the flash it seems, again with the AC3 you can do it instantly from the camera.
Both not show stoppers but a pain if you're trying to take a shot as quickly as possibly.
The speed cycler of the PW would/will be missed.
I'm not sure why but also in a test shot in ETTL the flash could power down low enough to not blow out my test shot, in manual at the lowest setting it blew out. Not sure if this a overall problem with the canon flash system or you just can't dial it down enough.
A big faux pas is the lack of tripod mount but you can use the canon flash feet or buying something like a Frio.

Once I dig the boxes out of the loft I think I'l sell the PW system, it's brilliant for what it does, has constant firmware updates, new features but I'm not a pro and for the price it's a toy I can't justify the cost of :)
 
With 6D, 5D III and 650D/T4i (and probably 70D). Canon addressed the buried menus, introducing a "quick flash control" panel similar to the camera Quick Control Panel. It works well, is a single page and not buried.

The 580EXII can do the equivalent of 1/520th or two stops less than a manual setting.
 
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You can get to the menus pretty quickly using auto brain mode. You just get used to it over time, after placing the menu option in 'my menu'. YN have something in the wings to overcome this 'Canon limitation', as you know.

As I said, YN have stuck closely to the Canon protocols, and all the restrictions that this implies to their usage. Personally, I like Canon ratios and have got used to them - always have group A on the left and group B on the right so that the movement of the dial for ratio control corresponds with the positioning of the flash-heads.

Mixed mode overcame a restriction of Canons protocols (no combined ettl and manual), you just have to use the remotes in manually operated mode rather than remote control, but at least you can run it like that, Canon don't allow it. The AC3 alone costs more than two 622 transceivers.

PW, and Phottix Odin, dont follow Canons protocols. They interpret the canon protocols for their own ends. The disadvantage of this is the requirement for constant (and much delayed) firmware updates from PW, whereas the YN appear to be much more forward compatible.

ETTL can go lower than 1/128th power on the gun. You must be using very high ISO.

Most ttl transceivers dont do stand sockets on the bottom, as the shoe has to be 'hot' with all the pins. I've never been worried about stabilitiy using the hotshoe on the 622rx via a clamping cold shoe and tighten the 622s nut down.
 
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I ditched my flex and mini PW's for the 622c's. Never looked back. For the HUGE saving you can pick up some more flash units.

I'm not sure if it was juse mine, but the PW didn't allow me to control the flash via the camera menu (may have needed a firmware upgrade) where as, out of the box the 622's do.

If you're unsure, buy the 622's play with them and when you;re happy they do what you need, sell the PW's and treat yourself to a little holiday with the money you get back from them!!
 
Phil V said:
Well I've sworn at the PW's enough, and bought myself some YN622's so far I'm really happy it's almost impossible to get them to not fire, whilst I found myself whispering incantations every time I was relying on the PW's.

It came to a head last week when 2 weddings on the trot, I used them for some OCF outside (generally stable) then walked into the venue and set a flash on a stand for the 1st dance, on both occasions the flash just refused to fire - there's no time to look into 'why' you just have to go to plan B and carry on shooting. I decided life is too short to just not take the easy option.
Click to expand...

Phil - I so know how you feel. This happened to me once with Pixelkings. Lost connection, and the flash reset to ETTL mode (rather than manual). In the first dance there is little time to work things out and sort it.

For this reason, during the first dance I now use Cactus V5s. Set them up manually, and they fire all the time. Less chance of things going wrong.

I guess, the more complex something is, the more chance for failure - whether it be user error or otherwise. Less is sometimes more!
 
FlyTVR said:
Phil - I so know how you feel. This happened to me once with Pixelkings. Lost connection, and the flash reset to ETTL mode (rather than manual). In the first dance there is little time to work things out and sort it.

For this reason, during the first dance I now use Cactus V5s. Set them up manually, and they fire all the time. Less chance of things going wrong.

I guess, the more complex something is, the more chance for failure - whether it be user error or otherwise. Less is sometimes more!
Click to expand...

I've got the YN's now and have tried allsorts to get them to fail, so far so good. (y)
 
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