Zoo Photography - Ethics Dilemma

[cdiver2]

What's the difference?

Do you honestly not know the difference?. For starters rescue centers do not buy sell or trade animals. They get them from defunct circuses stupid people that thought they could raise a big cat in there flat etc. I have a local bird sanctuary that rescues injured birds and releases after treatment if possible these never see the public. Those that can not be released are kept and the public can go and see them.....no charge it runs on donations and volunteers.
I agree conditions may not be any better but as stated these animals have not been purchased to show/make a profit.

Do we really need zoos these days, what you see there is not natural. I think ones time would be better spent watching a wildlife documentary and it will give a better understanding of what is going on in the wildlife world than any zoo will ever do.

 

[Photodiva]

My tuppence worth - I'm not a 'zoo goer' but think a lot of good conservation work goes on and zoos have changed in the last half century. However, on a visit to Colchester Zoo a couple of years ago I couldn't help feeling that a lot of the animals looked a bit pathetic. A lot of them turned their backs as soon as you showed a camera - perhaps tired of flashes going off all the time? Big cats like lions/tigers pacing about, looked a bit like distress behaviour to me. However, at Howletts where I went last year for a shoot, things seemed a lot different. Went into one enclosure with some monkeys with their keeper for a close up shoot, that was amazing. Animals seemed lively, engaging and curious. I don't think zoos should exist purely for the amusement of the masses, but a necessary amount of income is needed to carry on their work. Animals born and bred in captivity presumably have less issues with being 'enclosed' as long as the 'enclosure' is sufficient and they are living in suitable groups. Rescuing animals from the wild is another issue entirely. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all approach to zoos.

 

[Marc]

Do you honestly not know the difference?. For starters rescue centers do not buy sell or trade animals. They get them from defunct circuses stupid people that thought they could raise a big cat in there flat etc. I have a local bird sanctuary that rescues injured birds and releases after treatment if possible these never see the public. Those that can not be released are kept and the public can go and see them.....no charge it runs on donations and volunteers.
I agree conditions may not be any better but as stated these animals have not been purchased to show/make a profit.

Do we really need zoos these days, what you see there is not natural. I think ones time would be better spent watching a wildlife documentary and it will give a better understanding of what is going on in the wildlife world than any zoo will ever do.

Not sure how zoos are run in the states, but here they are charities geared up for conservation and education. Absolutely essential if these species are to survive. Yes, some are better at it than others but some of the claims hereare way wide of the mark, you'd think we were still in the days of the 'great white hunter going off to Africa to bag some exhibits'. Many of the animals are taken from places that are no longer able to keep them, certainly they are not bought and sold for profit.

 

[Mbuti]

Do you honestly not know the difference?. For starters rescue centers do not buy sell or trade animals. They get them from defunct circuses stupid people that thought they could raise a big cat in there flat etc. I have a local bird sanctuary that rescues injured birds and releases after treatment if possible these never see the public. Those that can not be released are kept and the public can go and see them.....no charge it runs on donations and volunteers.
I agree conditions may not be any better but as stated these animals have not been purchased to show/make a profit.

Just described what many zoos do too! So you can dress it up all you like but there basically the same all but in name!

Just play Devils advocate here because a lot of people are easily decieved when somethings called something different!

Do we really need zoos these days, what you see there is not natural. I think ones time would be better spent watching a wildlife documentary and it will give a better understanding of what is going on in the wildlife world than any zoo will ever do.

How do you know that the animals don't act differently in presence of humans?

I watch all the wildlife documentaries I can get but still doesn't stir the same emotions of actually seeing the real live creature, whether that be in a zoo or in the wild!

 

[cdiver2]

FABS by all means help where it is needed. So what is the difference. How many animals are in zoos that are not endangered or have not been rescued, I think more than are in danger or rescued. Lets start with a couple of obvious ones. Crocks Gators, in no danger what so ever and I can not remember the last time I saw one in the wild in the UK.
The bird sanctuary I mentioned has nothing but the birds, a local big cat rescue has nothing but the cats no other stuff to attract visitors. The cats are sniped so that they do not breed and prolong animals kept in captivity.

Mbuti

How do you know that the animals don't act differently in presence of humans?

Experience tells me what you see in zoos is not natural

 

[Keebsuk]

The world needs zoo's. It needs the captive breeding programs, the research and the education they provide or, we are in danger of losing many species forever.

I would far sooner see a few, well looked after "exhibits" if this ensures survival in the wild and as long as the zoo's continue to provide an enriched environment in return for all the positives then, imvho they do have a place in the modern world.

Andy

 

[Mbuti]

There is just no discussion with some people, while I accept zoos are not perfect others are blind in their views and there is no point discussing anything with people like that because they are too stubborn to see the other side of the story.

So as per the dragons den, AM OUT!

 

[cdiver2]

There is just no discussion with some people, while I accept zoos are not perfect others are blind in their views and there is no point discussing anything with people like that because they are too stubborn to see the other side of the story.

That's like saying I am taking my ball and going home, why because I will not agree with your point of view.

I have said, help where it is needed but a lot of wildlife are in cages that do not need to be and thats my point.

 

[Marc]

FABS by all means help where it is needed. So what is the difference. How many animals are in zoos that are not endangered or have not been rescued, I think more than are in danger or rescued. Lets start with a couple of obvious ones. Crocks Gators, in no danger what so ever and I can not remember the last time I saw one in the wild in the UK.
The bird sanctuary I mentioned has nothing but the birds, a local big cat rescue has nothing but the cats no other stuff to attract visitors. The cats are sniped so that they do not breed and prolong animals kept in captivity.

So how do you think the crocks and gators got there then? The 'great white hunter'? Pretty sure that they aren't indiginous to the UK so I'd be pretty surprised if you found any in the wild here.

 

[cdiver2]

So how do you think the crocks and gators got there then? The 'great white hunter'? Pretty sure that they aren't indiginous to the UK so I'd be pretty surprised if you found any in the wild here.

For making my point.
Well there not endangered or injured so don't need help and as you point out they are not indigenous to the UK so it leaves the questions how did they end up in a zoo in the UK. Perhaps they got stranded there whilst on vacation..... or perhaps someone purchased them to make money showing them. I don't think your average Jo in the street would be allowed to buy one so who doe's that leave a business organisation perhaps.

 

[Marc]

For making my point.
Well there not endangered or injured so don't need help and as you point out they are not indigenous to the UK so it leaves the questions how did they end up in a zoo in the UK. Perhaps they got stranded there whilst on vacation..... or perhaps someone purchased them to make money showing them. I don't think your average Jo in the street would be allowed to buy one so who doe's that leave a business organisation perhaps.

Zoos, well certainly reputable ones, do NOT purchase animals for profit. I don't know where you get that from but it seems to be based on assumptions. They have been bred in captivity for many years, possibly because they were originally brought over here many years ago.

And yes, they are endangered, man is encroaching on the habitat of the, and other, species for a long time.

 

[cdiver2]

Originally Posted by Fabs
Zoos, well certainly reputable ones, do NOT purchase animals for profit. I don't know where you get that from but it seems to be based on assumptions. They have been bred in captivity for many years, possibly because they were originally brought over here many years ago.

And yes, they are endangered, man is encroaching on the habitat of the, and other, species for a long time.

Sorry I beg to disagree with they are endangered. Can you show me an endangered list with them on?
Go to Au and you will be warned about going near fresh water crocks everywhere, same in Fl Louisiana Gators everywhere

So why keep letting an animal breed just to keep more in captivity?

 

[Marc]

Sorry I beg to disagree with they are endangered. Can you show me an endangered list with them on?
Go to Au and you will be warned about going near fresh water crocks everywhere, same in Fl Louisiana Gators everywhere

So why keep letting an animal breed just to keep more in captivity?

You missed my point, it was a generalisation that most wild animals are endangered in some way. They don't have to be on a list, it's not a club. You seem absolutely convinced that zoos are just trading animals for profit and, whatever anyone here says isn't going to dissuade you so maybe you should voice your concerns in the right direction and may you'll get better answers.

 

[big soft moose]

theres an interesting bit in Gerald Durrels the "stationary ark" about the ethics of cages - basically he makes the point about this marmoset, or similar small furry jobbie, which lives its entire life in the wild in one tree. So why would it care or even notice if its tree was inside a cage ?

its an extreme example but the point is if you take an animal that usually has a small teritory and put it inside a cage with that size territory theres nothing inherently cruel.

likewise if you take an animal that has a small resting territory but only travels further affeild to find food and then feed them regularly so they dont need to travel then again there is no inherent cruelty (the example here is a pride of lions - they only travel to hunt and to find mates - if those needs are met they wont travel so in a safaripark type setting they are fine.

on the otherhand take an animal which is unused to human contact and usually roams miles everyday and confine it in a 6x10 cage with no ability to get away from humans - and thats cruel.

Point being that zoos are not inheently cruel - badly run zoos are , wel run zoos arent.

 

[Splog]

For making my point.
Well there not endangered or injured so don't need help and as you point out they are not indigenous to the UK so it leaves the questions how did they end up in a zoo in the UK. Perhaps they got stranded there whilst on vacation..... or perhaps someone purchased them to make money showing them. I don't think your average Jo in the street would be allowed to buy one so who doe's that leave a business organisation perhaps.

RE: the crocs and gators...... Could they have escaped from a belt and handbag factory in manchester? ...

 

[Marc]

RE: the crocs and gators...... Could they have escaped from a belt and handbag factory in manchester? ...

See? I said they were endangered!

 

[cdiver2]

You missed my point, it was a generalisation that most wild animals are endangered in some way. They don't have to be on a list, it's not a club. You seem absolutely convinced that zoos are just trading animals for profit and, whatever anyone here says isn't going to dissuade you so maybe you should voice your concerns in the right direction and may you'll get better answers.

I do agree we humans are doing a lot of damage in reducing wild life areas and putting some species in jeopardy I have also stated in numerous posts help those that need it. No its not a club but there are people who are lot more educated in this field than you and I that make the list and just how endangered it is.
I was not generalizing when I asked why do zoos keep gators and crocks (to name but a couple) that are not endangered or injured and still allow them to breed?.
As you said yes I am convinced that zoos are in it for profit on the other hand you are convinced zoos are the answer to an animals prayer.

Gators you will find them in Just about any fresh water body hear in FL in fact they are a nuisance at times when (Big soft Moose) they start moving around. Normally they do have a territory (a lot larger than a zoo gives them)
but sometimes the norm is not the norm. Things that may make an ordinarily static animal move are thrown out of the pride this happens with lions wolves chimps etc, looking for a mate.

This is what you will find all over FL if you want to see them or not.

 

[Marc]

on the other hand you are convinced zoos are the answer to an animals prayer.

I never even intimated that, just trying to point out that they do a hell of a lot of good work. You keep going on about how many crocs there are in Florida, well that's Florida. Just because there are loads in one place doesn't mean they are not endangered elsewhere in the world. In any case, the key is not how many there are but how many there were and will be?

Just to answer your question though:

http://www.itsnature.org/endangered/moderately/saltwater-crocodile/

http://www.endangeredspecieshandbook.org/trade_reptile_crocodiles.php

 

[cdiver2]

Yes the salt water crocks are on the list but I did not say the salt water crock. The fresh water one is not on the list. By the way there are no crocks in Fl. Salt water ones yes but very few.

You keep going on about how many crocs there are in Florida, well that's Florida. Just because there are loads in one place doesn't mean they are not endangered elsewhere in the world

So take them from FL and distribute them where ever you want without putting them in cages. If you want a couple of hundred to put in the Thames I am sure we can accommodate just pay the postage (joke)

I to can use Google take a look at my list (at the end) of endangered species lots of them...... and very few of them in zoos.

In any case, the key is not how many there are but how many there were and will be?

Don't get me started on this. I am a scuba diver and have been since 1974 and have seen a decline in fish life over the years and have said very loudly that we have to change our fishing practises commercially and individually or we will lose them. However we will never get back to how many there used to be, demanded to high and hunting efficiency.
We do want the same thing but disagree on how to achieve it.

http://www.earthsendangered.com/list.asp

 

[TySharp]

You make a good point and I face a similar dilemma. Your second photo is quite thought provoking.

This is a bit of a trick photo -

It is actually not the goose that is fenced in, it is me.

This is a very good question. But it will be fully based on opinions (which is perfectly fine). Basically it's like asking if you think it's wrong to hunt, even though you (not you, but people in general) know that even though hunting is a sport, the main reason for it is to keep the numbers under control. For instance, so deer aren't running through cities, or one species is taking all the food away from another species, and many many more reasons. I am 26, and I used to hunt the beginning of my life, until I was about 22. I grew up in the country. I did enjoy it.

But now, I cannot hunt anymore, because I have changed, and I jsut don't have the heart to see the animals wounded before they die (if you get a hit that does not kill upon instant). It just breaks my heart to see the animal suffer. BUT, even though I mentally can't do it anymore, I know it needs to be done, and someone has to do it. So even though I see the dark side of it, I fully support hunting, because I know the reasons toward it, and that it must happen to keep populations under control.

That being said, like others have said, it is sad seeing animals caged up, not running free, and in a confined area. But they are providing entertainment, they are very educational first hand to whomever visits the zoo, and also for research, and many other reasons. Beyond that, some of those animals really are better off in the zoo, as some have arrived there because they have been saved.

So yeah, it is sad to see, but IMO I think it is needed, just as lab testing on some animals is needed, to help same human lives and benefit us, and also other animals (just an example).

 

[Werecow]

I've massively gone off zoo photography since i first started taking photography seriously. I do think they have a role to play in education and breeding programs though.

As for the photography aspect, i suddenly realised i don't get any buzz what so ever from taking photos in zoos. I get a massive high when i've managed to take a photo i'm happyish with in the wild.

Also... despite the animals being incredibly tame, the situation and accessability of the environment nearly always makes for worse photos than it's possible to take in the wild (i know some species you'd never get to see in the wild in your life though).

My focus has changed almost 100% to visiting nature reserves rather than zoos and i only take a camera to a zoo in a snapshot capacity when i do visit them.

Following a TP meet to Banham Zoo today with the Norfolk Mafia, Lynton, Slimbert, Tigerdriver and PatrickO (all thoroughly good company I may add), I was left feeling a little saddened. Although the weather wasn't brilliant......drought mmmm, the animals just seemed sad and bored. It set me thinking on the way home through the border controls, Norfolk-Suffolk-Essex , do zoos really make for interesting and ethical photographs. Don't get me wrong, I am sure Banham Zoo animals are well cared for and treated but a couple of my images today sum up my dilema, see them posted below. I am not looking for critique, I am more interested in others opinions/views on zoo photography.