Product photography lighting workshop, Sunday 17th August

I didn't get it either Garry :(

TBH at first I thought it is completely unrelated comment but I'm not sure anymore. Looks like it might be about the photo I posted. Did I make a booboo somwhere? :)



Thanks Phil :)
No, as I said it's just a poor joke.
Looking at the string of water droplets caused a thought association with the string theory, which is really an unproven theory that wanders off into all sorts of different directions and which tries to explain how literally everything works and interrelates.
It's just how my mind works sometimes - or doesn't work - so now you can see a relationship between my mind and the string theory as well as between your photo and the string theory :)

I think you've done a cracking job on that shot. The only problem that jumps out and hits me is the effect of the different light source and different direction of the bottom light, but my guess is that you'd run out of suitable modifiers and had to make do with what you have, which happens to all of us.
 
No, as I said it's just a poor joke.
Looking at the string of water droplets caused a thought association with the string theory, which is really an unproven theory that wanders off into all sorts of different directions and which tries to explain how literally everything works and interrelates.
It's just how my mind works sometimes - or doesn't work - so now you can see a relationship between my mind and the string theory as well as between your photo and the string theory :)

I think you've done a cracking job on that shot. The only problem that jumps out and hits me is the effect of the different light source and different direction of the bottom light, but my guess is that you'd run out of suitable modifiers and had to make do with what you have, which happens to all of us.

The different light source was a decision I made on purpose. I wanted to include some hard light to show the texture of the surface a bit. It was a standard reflector with 20 degree honeycomb grid on it.

You are right though, I did run out of stripboxes (I have only one until later this week). I could have used a 60x60 softbox instead and I think it would work just as fine as a stripbox in that case, but as I mentioned, it was a concious decision.

Now that you mentioned that, I wish I tried both ways (hard and soft light) and choose a better one in PP. It would only take few more minutes. Something to keep in mind next time.

The direction of the light was forced a bit by limited space (I really need to get another place to do it all). I tried the light on level with my subject but I didn't like it the effect, so I ended up with light lower and just skimming the surface.

I was really close to binning the whole project yesterday when PPing. When I came up with the idea it worked in my mind. When I saw it on my screen it just visually made no sense to me. In the end I decided to add the sign on the bottom to explain it, but in future I would much prefer if I didn't have to do it that way.

Thank you for nice words Garry. I'm learning as I go.
 
The different light source was a decision I made on purpose. I wanted to include some hard light to show the texture of the surface a bit. It was a standard reflector with 20 degree honeycomb grid on it.

You are right though, I did run out of stripboxes (I have only one until later this week). I could have used a 60x60 softbox instead and I think it would work just as fine as a stripbox in that case, but as I mentioned, it was a concious decision.

Now that you mentioned that, I wish I tried both ways (hard and soft light) and choose a better one in PP. It would only take few more minutes. Something to keep in mind next time.

The direction of the light was forced a bit by limited space (I really need to get another place to do it all). I tried the light on level with my subject but I didn't like it the effect, so I ended up with light lower and just skimming the surface.

I was really close to binning the whole project yesterday when PPing. When I came up with the idea it worked in my mind. When I saw it on my screen it just visually made no sense to me. In the end I decided to add the sign on the bottom to explain it, but in future I would much prefer if I didn't have to do it that way.

Thank you for nice words Garry. I'm learning as I go.
I think you're being a bit hard on yourself, I think it'd work without the text (although only to an audience that mattered - potential buyers).

If you see the Lencarta images used to advertise the Superfasts, they work for us, because we know that an 'ordinary' flash can't do that. But to the man in the street, they're just an image of a model having milk thrown at her. There's a limit to the amount of narrative we can add to a product shot before it's 'overdone'. The important thing is that the target audience appreciates it.
 
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:agree:
This thread isn't about photography, or lighting, it's about the lighting workshop that we ran.
And that workshop was specifically about product photography - which is largely but not exclusively about lighting.
The most important ingredients are to show the benefits of the product in a way that will inform the potential buyers, followed of course by the need to produce photos that are accurate and honest, visually appealing, dramatic etc etc etc.

So, the mindset of the photographer for product photography is very different from the mindset for a different type of photo, for example a photo of a beautiful flower.

Personally I'm very encouraged by the pretty stunning improvements, shown both in this thread and here
People who didn't have a clue before are now producing work of a pretty high standard, and usually with very limited equipment, which seems to support my theory that it's achievable by everyone, and that there are in fact no "black art" secrets. The people who promote the idea that it takes many years of experience, a good degree and a shedload of equipment are either just plain wrong or are just trying to protect their own position and trying to deter other people from learning.

BTW, hopefully the server problems have now been sorted out and I should be able to start posting more of the photos taken at the workshop, once I'm back at work.
 
I think you're being a bit hard on yourself, I think it'd work without the text (although only to an audience that mattered - potential buyers).

If you see the Lencarta images used to advertise the Superfasts, they work for us, because we know that an 'ordinary' flash can't do that. But to the man in the street, they're just an image of a model having milk thrown at her. There's a limit to the amount of narrative we can add to a
product shot before it's 'overdone'. The important thing is that the target audience appreciates it.
Good point Phil.

When I asked my wife what she thought of it she just made one of those random comments like "its nice but what is it?", it got me thinking. What is it then, a lamp and a bit of water. Where is the connection.

I actually never occurred to me that people who know what that "lamp" is might know what the connection is as well.

Cheers :)
 
Half a pair of ridiculous shoes :)
Shoes are easy, please see my tutorial on shooting the shoe.

Like many products, when we photograph shoes we photograph just the one, it’s always the left one and we always photograph it at the angle in these photos. Like any other product, we may well end up with several detail photos too, with the shoe in different positions but it’s the main photo that really matters because if that one doesn’t attract the potential customer’s interest then she won’t look at the detail ones.

I used f/16, which is as small an aperture as I’m happy with on a full frame digicam because of the risk of diffraction limitation starting to rear its ugly head at a smaller aperture, but f/22 would have been a better choice, there really isn’t much DOF at these short distances, and there wasn't quite enough...

Even black patent leather knee boots are easy enough, and this shoe was especially easy. It was shiny of course, so we needed to create diffused specular highlights, as almost always, and the only slight challenge really was the fact that, for some reason, it has a 7” high heel, so a light source coming from above would create very uneven lighting, and put the reflection in the wrong place.

So, I tilted the 70 x 140cm softbox to suit the angle presented by the shoe, problem solved.
The softbox is lighting the shiny bits on the top, and the shiny bits on the side. And it’s lighting the inside of the shoe too. It’s a classic single-light shot.

There was just one minor problem, the shoe has in fact been worn so isn’t new, and it needs to be new and in pristine condition because, with a shiny subject in particular, even faults that aren’t normally visible jump out and hit you in a photo.

This is my first photo, but the camera was just a bit too low
shoe_1.jpg


So, for the second shot, I raised the camera by maybe 2” – see how that has changed the shape of the shoe? Small changes can make big differences.
shoe_2.jpg

And finally, I added a honeycomb, fitted to a standard reflector, to put a bit of backlight on those white decorative rivets. It’s subtle, but it does add a bit, and also skims along the side of the shoe, adding a bit of life to it. Unfortunately it also shows up a scuff mark, but that wouldn’t be a problem on a new shoe.
shoe_3.jpg

And finally, it’s shot on an unlit shooting table, which produces an uneven grey background. Low end clients, and those who do as their marketing guys tell them, usually want a white background instead. My approach is never to photograph on a white background, because it reduces the overall contrast and interferes with lighting control. If they want a pure white background then they can pay for the subject to be cut out of the background. Nearly all of the top brands go for the grey background though, because they want their products to look as good as they can.
 
There was just one minor problem, the shoe has in fact been worn so isn’t new, and it needs to be new and in pristine condition because, with a shiny subject in particular, even faults that aren’t normally visible jump out and hit you in a photo.

If only you hadn't tried them on before you shot them Garry :)
 
Thank you Garry, very useful as usual!

Funny enough, I used a very similar technique when I was shooting a shoe (or rather a boot) few weeks ago. Though instead of stripbox I used a large softbox above (I didn't have a stribox back then) and instead of gridded reflector I used a gridded snoot just skimming along the surface to show the marks and texture a bit more, but light placing was quite similar I think. I also ended up lightening up the background to pure white, as I wanted it to look a bit like a mock up catalog shot :)

However, I used right boot, not left, because it was dirtier and more damaged. I'll know for future, that it is always left regardless. I think my camera placement should have been a bit higher as well. I only noticed this now.

...
 
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Thank you Garry, very useful as usual!

Funny enough, I used a very similar technique when I was shooting a shoe (or rather a boot) few weeks ago. Though instead of stripbox I used a large softbox above (I didn't have a stribox back then) and instead of gridded reflector I used a gridded snoot just skimming along the surface to show the marks and texture a bit more, but light placing was quite similar I think. I also ended up lightening up the background to pure white, as I wanted it to look a bit like a mock up catalog shot :)

However, I used right boot, not left, because it was dirtier and more damaged. I'll know for future, that it is always left regardless. I think my camera placement should have been a bit higher as well. I only noticed this now.


Boot
by =ReBeL=, on Flickr
You didn't get it wrong, you were taking a different type of shot for a different purpose.
We shoot the left shoe at the angle I use, for product shots, because that's the (unofficial) standard.
Just as all bra and knicker shots are size 10 and all wedding dresses are size 12 (which is always fun when we shoot typical size 8 models wearing them, which involves the use of a lot of clamps to make the dress fit:) )
And there's nothing wrong with shooting against a pure white background, but for a product shot it's better to cut it out later if required so that we don't get unwanted light bouncing onto the subject and interfering with the lighting arrangement.
 
Photographing this beer was our last shot of the day, and by far the most complex.

As the day progressed, I did less and less and ‘asked’ my victims to do more and more, partly out of pure laziness and partly because I feel that most people learn more from doing than from watching. By the time we got to this shot, I was in full lazy mode and did virtually nothing except make sarcastic comments about wedding photographers…

It took a while to sort through the images. After deleting all those that were out of focus we were left with 73 shots, many of which seemed to be identical to each other, so I’m guessing that there may have been some wedding photographers in the group after all J

About the only thing I did do was to arrange the very preliminary lighting. I used a strip softbox to bottle right, we tend to use strip softboxes a lot, but photographing bottles is what they’re actually designed to do, because the long thin strip of light can create a perfectly even diffused specular highlight right along the length of the bottle.

We used a table, covered by a black background, as the product base. My fault, we should have used a pillar of some kind instead because the table was too wide for the job. Because it was too wide we couldn’t use another strip softbox to camera left, so we used a 70 x 140 softbox instead, the extra distance compensated for the extra width. But if it hadn’t, we could have used cinefoil to mask the width down.

The shot below shows the setup The faults here are with the softbox being out of square and the light too powerful (later shots were with the strip softbox turned down at least a stop, much better) but this shots shows the approach.
beer_1.jpg

The law of unintended consequences kicks in here. We didn't light the metalwork that holds the cap in place because it ended up being lit pretty effectively by those softboxes, it always does because the light from the softboxes is the right shape and is coming from the right place.
See how dark the label is though on the bottle? The label is absolutely vital on a product shot.

This is where I interfered a bit. There are a couple of ways of illuminating just the label, which absolutely had to be done. My own method is to use a pretty specialised focussing spotlight, a brilliant and versatile tool that can create and throw pretty well any required shape of light, but it isn’t the sort of thing that is lying around in the typical home studio, so the group rightly opted for a Garry bodge, which involves more work but does the job. It could have been done better with more time, but the idea here was really to show the principles involved, and the various methods that can be used to overcome challenges.

The bodge here was a piece of Cinefoil (trade mark of Rosco) and it is also known by the generic name of Blackwrap. Cinefoil comes in a roll that lasts ages, and is thick aluminium ‘baking foil’ coated black both sides – we use it all the time in the studio, often for making flags and black absorbers. Strangely though, Cinefoil isn't popular with studio photographers - maybe it's too cheap, maybe it doesn't look pretty enough, maybe Rosco need to sell it for thousands and print a big red 'L' on it to make it appealing... In other words, if you haven't got any, get some. On the day though, we just cut out a small rectangle and shone a flash through it so that only the label was lit by that light. Place the Cinefoil really close to the subject and place the flash head really far away, and you get pretty sharply focussed edges, reverse that and you get very blurred edges. The shot below shows the effect it produced, which I think is pretty cool.
beer_3.jpg

The softbox lighting the left hand side isn't creating its diffused specular highlight over the entire height of the glass, that's because of the complex convex shape of the glass. Not to worry, once the glass is filled with beer that won't show.

Next up, the beer was added. This has to be done last because otherwise it would go flat.
And almost finally, Phil wanted to add just a wisp of smoke from the smoke machine…
beer_final_cropped.jpg

Personally I blow tobacco smoke through a straw to achieve this, but the smoke machine could work with a very gentle touch… or with some PP work.

There is absolutely no PP work on these shots, it is very definitely needed, to sort out unwanted colour in the glass, unwanted dust everywhere, refracted light coming out of the glass, odd unwanted specular reflections on the bottle, most of the smoke needs to go and of course the background needs work too, but it's pointless doing PP work on a shot that is supposed to show how something was done.

And finally, the beer was disposed of, I’m told that it tasted good.

Sarcasm about the number of 'wedding photographer' shots aside, I think they did pretty well with this shot. My usual comment of “My cat could have done a better job and I haven’t even got a cat” doesn’t apply here.
 
I'll add in my defence; you had to be there to see how uncomfortable a Canon shooter can become when faced with a strange antique Nikon lens. I'm surprised we managed to get any in focus at all.

On a more serious note:
Thanks Garry - I picked this on purpose and guessed it'd be the biggest challenge - I've read Garry's great article on darkfield lighting, I've read the (some might say impenetrable) detailed description in the book 'Light Science and Magic', but I was struggling to understand what would happen when you added other elements to the glass subject. So I picked liquid and smoke - just to be awkward.

When I've cracked open my piggy bank, I'm buying a stripbox, and some honeycombs, and I'm going to have a go at this one myself. I've some ideas on improvements I'd like to make - but it'll not be in a hurry.
 
:( That's my most modern lens...
I'll add in my defence; you had to be there to see how uncomfortable a Canon shooter Citroen driver can become when faced with a strange antique Nikon lens. well engineered car. I'm surprised we managed to get any in focus at all. get there at all.

On a more serious note - as I think we demonstrated, there's nothing difficult about lighting anything, it's all about understanding the nature of light. Once we understand the problem, it's easy to work out the solution.
:nikon:
 
Of course the other (necessary) reason there were so many shots, is the random nature of smoke patterns. :snaphappy:
 
I think the shot could be improved by placing a small gold reflector cut to the size behind the bottle to shine some light through it from the stripbox. I think the bottle is pretty dark now. Or add another light behind the bottle (gridded reflector or gridded snoot) behind to one side just to shine some light through the bottle. This is me just being a smartarse :) It's much harder when doing it yourself. In fact I was planning to shoot a beer bottle yesterday, but due other things did not manage. I'll be doing it tonight, but the bottle is transparent and it will be on light background, so different approach altogether (much easier). I also plan to shoot some whisky bottle and that will be on dark background, but that one needs to wait. Beer first.

BTW Garry, can I ask about the folded stripboxes which are coming to Lencarta on the 8th (as mentioned in another thread)? Will there be any smaller ones as well. I need something like 90 x 22, two of them in fact... and barn doors too. I am hovering over buy button on Bessel website for days now and somehow I can't do it. Would prefer to give my money to Lencarta.
 
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I think the shot could be improved by placing a small gold reflector cut to the size behind the bottle to shine some light through it from the stripbox. I think the bottle is pretty dark now. Or add another light behind the bottle (gridded reflector or gridded snoot) behind to one side just to shine some light through the bottle. This is me just being a smartarse :) It's much harder when doing it yourself. In fact I was planning to shoot a beer bottle yesterday, but due other things did not manage. I'll be doing it tonight, but the bottle is transparent and it will be on light background, so different approach altogether (much easier). I also plan to shoot some whisky bottle and that will be on dark background, but that one needs to wait. Beer first.
.
The lack of light on the other side of the bottle is part of what I'd like to improve, if the bottle was the only subject it'd be easy.

BTW Garry, can I ask about the folded stripboxes which are coming to Lencarta on the 8th (as mentioned in another thread)? Will there be any smaller ones as well. I need something like 90 x 22, two of them in fact... and barn doors too. I am hovering over buy button on Bessel website for days now and somehow I can't do it. Would prefer to give my money to Lencarta.

That's the kind of customer behaviour that's driven by this kind of support.
 
I think the shot could be improved by placing a small gold reflector cut to the size behind the bottle to shine some light through it from the stripbox. I think the bottle is pretty dark now. Or add another light behind the bottle (gridded reflector or gridded snoot) behind to one side just to shine some light through the bottle. This is me just being a smartarse :) It's much harder when doing it yourself. In fact I was planning to shoot a beer bottle yesterday, but due other things did not manage. I'll be doing it tonight, but the bottle is transparent and it will be on light background, so different approach altogether (much easier). I also plan to shoot some whisky bottle and that will be on dark background, but that one needs to wait. Beer first.

BTW Garry, can I ask about the folded stripboxes which are coming to Lencarta on the 8th (as mentioned in another thread)? Will there be any smaller ones as well. I need something like 90 x 22, two of them in fact... and barn doors too. I am hovering over buy button on Bessel website for days now and somehow I can't do it. Would prefer to give my money to Lencarta.
A reflector is an option. The better option is in fact my focussing spotlight - and you know what the alternative to that it already, the Garry bodge of using cinefoil...
But there's a third option too, Image>adjustments>shadows/highlights (separate layer and blend).
There's also the option of underlighting

The delivery is coming to the docks on the 8th, it will take a few days longer to get here and get unloaded etc. Sorry but we just have our standard size, 140 x 30cm - smaller ones are far too limited. Barn doors are going to be in that delivery, along with a lot of other things. One of the other things that will be there will be honeycombs for our 60 x 60cm softboxes, for the first time:)
 
A reflector is an option. The better option is in fact my focussing spotlight - and you know what the alternative to that it already, the Garry bodge of using cinefoil...
But there's a third option too, Image>adjustments>shadows/highlights (separate layer and blend).
There's also the option of underlighting

The delivery is coming to the docks on the 8th, it will take a few days longer to get here and get unloaded etc. Sorry but we just have our standard size, 140 x 30cm - smaller ones are far too limited. Barn doors are going to be in that delivery, along with a lot of other things. One of the other things that will be there will be honeycombs for our 60 x 60cm softboxes, for the first time:)

140 x 30 are just too big for small space like mine. I need 2 same size stripboxes, but 140 x 30 are just too big (I struggle with 100x100 softbox due the limited space). Anyway, that's just my problem. I think I'll just got for the Bessel ones then.

Anyway, back to the shot. Another option would be to use one light behind to shine light through the bottle and the glass and use two white long reflectors left and right in front of the subjects to create nice long strip-box like reflections on the glass and the bottle... I just like backlighting :)
 
Garry may I ask for a quick advice/question as well, it is about lighting for a label on a beer bottle. How often do you have to get everything right in one shot? The reason I ask is that I plan to shoot/light the label separately and blend it later in PS. I think this would leave me with more freedom and would create better results for showing the label. As you mentioned labels are very important. Do you do that yourself, or you prefer to light everything at once to limit your PP?
 
Garry may I ask for a quick advice/question as well, it is about lighting for a label on a beer bottle. How often do you have to get everything right in one shot? The reason I ask is that I plan to shoot/light the label separately and blend it later in PS. I think this would leave me with more freedom and would create better results for showing the label. As you mentioned labels are very important. Do you do that yourself, or you prefer to light everything at once to limit your PP?
Good question, and frankly I'm not sure why I work the way I do.
Partly history/training/pride in my work I suppose.
Partly because PP work has absolutely no perceived value to clients. They watch Abby in NCIS and see her doing something completely amazing on the computer in half a second and just don't get it that, in the real world, it can take hours to actually do it. Me? I don't know how she's doing it because I'm too busy watching her...

So, I prefer to do it all in camera, whilst they're watching me. They can understand why it takes so long to get it right in camera and they're prepared to pay for it.

But if you want to light and shoot it separately and blend it together later, then that's a valid way of doing it - as long as the light is coming from the same direction and so looks natural and real. There's no room for purism in product photography but what IS important is that faked work looks real.
 
I want to create 2 long specular highlights on the (reflective) label. With my limited space it could create problems trying to do it all in one shot. Also one of the options (variations of the shot) will be to use a very cold bottle, straight from the freezer. If I'm not mistaken this will create problems on the label as well (ie ice all over it), so to make sure I have the label exposed perfectly I will shoot it separately and blend it later in PP (whole or just parts).

As for light being from the same direction, well the shot will be mostly backlit, the label will be lit from the front. I don't know exactly how will I create it yet (with 2 lights or 2 reflectors or something else), but the label will be lit from the front (it is not a transparent label).

It must be a nice dose of adrenaline having clients on the set watching your every move.
 
Garry (and others), when shooting watches or other small products where you have to get up close and personal, do you do focus stacking or stick small aperture (f20+) and make do with diffraction?

I was shooting a watch yesterday at f20 and I definitely see some detail loss zoomed in.
 
Sometimes, you can get away with a soft image - but not with something as clean and detailed as a watch, so focus stacking is usually the best option IMO
 
Well I am just trying to shoot a ring and at f20 I can just about get a small stone on top of it in focus. I can't see how I could get away with this one without focus stacking... unless I shoot it flat against the background but I'd prefer not to.

I think it will be 2 or 3 shots just to get the thing in focus.

Thanks Garry
 
Well I am just trying to shoot a ring and at f20 I can just about get a small stone on top of it in focus. I can't see how I could get away with this one without focus stacking... unless I shoot it flat against the background but I'd prefer not to.

I think it will be 2 or 3 shots just to get the thing in focus.

Thanks Garry

A tilt & shift lens might help. There are 85/90mm versions from Nikon and Canon designed with product photography in mind.
 
A tilt & shift lens might help. There are 85/90mm versions from Nikon and Canon designed with product photography in mind.

The Canon one is on my radar, but it is not cheap though. Maybe one day.
 
What software people use for focus stacking for product photography? I find Photoshop not very accurate. Is there anything else worth looking at?
 
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A quick question. Where to position a gridded gelled light to create a perfect circle of colour behind my product on black background? If I place it below or above, left or right surly it will be more of a ellipse shape than a perfect circle. Product is small so I can't hide a strobe behind it
 
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If you need the perfect circle, and you can't position your light in the right place, I'd guess you have to comp it.
 
A quick question. Where to position a gridded gelled light to create a perfect circle of colour behind my product on black background? If I place it below or above, left or right surly it will be more of a ellipse shape than a perfect circle. Product is small so I can't hide a strobe behind it
It doesn't usually matter because we don't normally show the whole of the circle in the shot.
If it does matter then make an elliptical shape out of cinefoil, stick that over the light and correct the shape distortion that way.
Or, with most backgrounds (but not vinyl) just light it from behind, shining through the background.
If you need the perfect circle, and you can't position your light in the right place, I'd guess you have to comp it.
Comping is good too
 
Thanks Phil and Garry.

It was a bit of an afterthought, I must admit. I was playing with black product on black background and everything was fine until I got to PP. It all just looked too... well, black :) and plain. So I decided to add something in PP.

Therefore my next task will be to do the same thing (ie a splash of colour on a black background) but using lights and gels this time, hence my question.

Thanks :)
 
Assuming it was going to be just a black background for the light could you do it by altering the angle of the background its self?
Yes
 
Thanks Andy. That's a simple solution. I like simple solutions :)

One more question. If I shine a colourful light on a black muslin background full of wrinkles, I assume all the wrinkles will be visible in the photo. Is that correct?
 
I ought to clarify, changing the angle of the background works left/right but can be difficult to do top/bottom.
Changing the angle left/right is also a classic way of getting light to fall off on the background.
Thanks Andy. That's a simple solution. I like simple solutions :)

One more question. If I shine a colourful light on a black muslin background full of wrinkles, I assume all the wrinkles will be visible in the photo. Is that correct?
Try it and see. Obviously if the light is skimming across the background then any uneven texture won't just show, it will jump out and hit you. If it's hitting the background square, any wrinkles will be far less visible.
 
Thanks Garry.

I think I should invest in black velvet instead. Especially with my limited space.
 
Wish I'd gone to this, got some new products to photograph and need to learn about lighting and staging
 
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