Clamping cars as a last resort

[archamedes]

Start letting tyres down and when they complain, just say the neighbourhood is getting rough and it's no longer a safe place to leave a vehicle!.

Di

you know thats what I would have said, yet if I posted that on this forum instead of you I would be getting quoted and flamed like I do on any other post I make.

 

[mrgubby]

Any chance of setting up a webcam so we can watch ?

 

[rhody]

Thanks to everyone for their comments in this thread

Any chance of setting up a webcam so we can watch ?

One of the tenants did offer to do this for us but we haven't taken her up on it just in case someone saw the camera and took offence at being filmed from a private house.

Hopefully, the signs and physically clamping any offenders will solve it. The word should spread very quickly locally that the signs are being backed up by actions and that the £1 per hour being charged by the Council is a lot cheaper than being clamped.

I do like the idea of webcam footage though...................................... anyone got Harry Hill's number????

 

[Lynton]

a really interesting read.... I have always until now been anticlamping, however have never knowingly parked on someone elses land / car park etc which people may use, but will confess to a couple of building sites in my earlier years on nights out, and got away with it.

To me, it seems you've done all you can, but the pricks won't listen so only one option left.

Please though, ensure everyone leaves it to the clampers to "chat with" the offenders and expect loads of flack. I would suggest a camera with you tomorrow to document any type of damage that may occur (don't want to scare you - but can see things kicking off, so to speak!) - esp since the reg perpetrators think it their right.

 

[Steep]

Any chance of setting up a webcam so we can watch ?

This ^

A small webcam in a window won't be noticed. I would suggest fitting something like a Foscam IP security camera to the outside of the building, covering the car park as a form of deterrant to would be vandalisers.

 

[Sponge]

One of the tenants did offer to do this for us but we haven't taken her up on it just in case someone saw the camera and took offence at being filmed from a private house.

It's private land: Along with the signs saying you will be clamped, have one saying you will be recorded. Using this land constitutes acceptance, blah, blah, blah...

 

[theboss]

doo it, stream it live it should not use much bandwith

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Along with the signs saying you will be clamped, have one saying for your own safety you will be recorded.

 

[Russ77]

I can sympathise with you Rhody!

I live in a block of 10 newly built flats and we have a car park. Each flat has a designated parking space and this is reflected in the deeds/land registry.

Normally there's no problem with parking but on a few occasions I've come home to find my space occupied. Once I blocked the car in and he turned out to be a contractor on the building site where new houses are being built, I got the "I only popped in for 5 mins" routine while he was changing out of his work boots :nono:

Normally it's other resident's friends when they visit which is a little annoying as I make sure my guests don't use the car park.

The problem is a lot of people think I'm being petty "It's only a parking space" but the fact is I'm sure their attitude would be different if they came home to find me parked on their drive way

 

[Garry Edwards]

Or the other solution is to lift the car up and just pop it back in the street. It then becomes a police/council enforcement issue but you'd have to do it carefully so you didn't damage the vehicle.

Off topic but...

A few years ago a large furniture manufacturer had a big problem with a sort of street market/car boot sale nearby, people would park their cars wherever they wanted, blocking emergency exits, stopping deliveries and so on - and nothing that they did had any effect on the people who thought that they could park where they liked.

Until they had a major fire that is. The fire brigade couldn't get their vehicles along the narrow roads and couldn't access some of the hydrants. They asked the firm to help, and authorised them to pick up the offending cars with fork lift trucks and drop them in the nearby canal

Apparently the car owners (or their insurers) had to pay to get them removed from the canal as well as replace the cars. There were virtually no parking problems after that
For anyone who knows it, this was on the Lea Valley Trading Estate, London N.18

 

[srichards]

I always quite liked the idea of taking a hummer or similar down these narrow streets where everyone parks selfishly and ripping doors and mirrors off until they got the idea.

Used to be a person at my old street that would park half over people's drive ways. Local college lecturer so should know better. If you remonstrated with her she would f and blind like a fish wife. She did this to my neighbour so he got someone else to block her in for an hour so she was late for work. Selfish B* never did it again. What was even funnier was that she parked in front of someone else's house while on holiday for a week or more and a stolen car wrote her's off. How we all cheered Nice to know karma has a sense of humour.

 

[scorpius]

Hi Ziggy - How do you deal with the motorists who knowingly and repeatedly park on private land please?

My wife works at a Health Centre in central Edinburgh where they have problems with people parking in the staff and patients car parks. Like most of central Edinburgh no on-street parking nearby and people too mean to pay to park in the car parks or too lazy to walk. It's only sick people they are inconveniencing after all .

After trying posts (they got ripped out of the ground) chains etc. they have employed a company to issue and collect 'fines'. Health Centre porters apply the hard to remove stickers to the cars and take photo evidence, photo's and details of car etc. are then passed on to the parking company who do the rest.

How the parking company collect the 'fines' I don't know but it does seem to work as they get very few repeat offenders.

 

[rhody]

Thanks to everyone for their comments and feedback - much appreciated.

The first day went better than I expected - if there were any harsh words or threats, they didn't reach my ears.

Day 1 - started by discovering that the warning signs erected at the car park entrance had been torn off the walls and stolen sometime over the weekend. New signs erected immediately and photographed with date and time.

1st clamped car - a middle aged couple who in their words "Have been parking here for months without any problems". They thought the signs were only a deterrent and would not actually be enforced as they had parked in the same spot last week and nothing had happened - even with the signs in place.

2nd clamped car - a young girl who had "just popped into the shops for a few minutes" - which was really just under an hour after the clamp went on

3rd clamped car - a disabled pensioner who thought his disabled parking permit allowed him to park anywhere he liked - even on private land

4th clamped car - a sales rep who left his car behind to go off to a meeting with his manager - for 4 hours.

Everyone paid the release fee and no vehicles were removed from site although the sales rep nearly had his towed as it was there for so long.

I wonder if the signs will still be there tomorrow morning?

 

[Meno]

Good start. Word will get around and your problem should be reduced.

 

[trencheel303]

Damn right, no one should have to put up with that.

 

[AdamK]

Nice work so far.

I manage a petrol station and we have the same problem, people always leave cars on our property to visit the shops down the road or the apartments next door.

We usually just block them in or superglue a notice to the windscreen, it would be great to have a clamping company to help but I doubt it would be feasible with our type of business.

 

[rhody]

Please though, ensure everyone leaves it to the clampers to "chat with" the offenders and expect loads of flack. I would suggest a camera with you tomorrow to document any type of damage that may occur (don't want to scare you - but can see things kicking off, so to speak!) - esp since the reg perpetrators think it their right.

Many thanks Lynton - I have stressed to all the tenants that if a problem arises they should simply ring the enforcement company and just wait indoors.

 

[Russ77]

Thanks to everyone for their comments and feedback - much appreciated.

The first day went better than I expected - if there were any harsh words or threats, they didn't reach my ears.

Day 1 - started by discovering that the warning signs erected at the car park entrance had been torn off the walls and stolen sometime over the weekend. New signs erected immediately and photographed with date and time.

1st clamped car - a middle aged couple who in their words "Have been parking here for months without any problems". They thought the signs were only a deterrent and would not actually be enforced as they had parked in the same spot last week and nothing had happened - even with the signs in place.

2nd clamped car - a young girl who had "just popped into the shops for a few minutes" - which was really just under an hour after the clamp went on

3rd clamped car - a disabled pensioner who thought his disabled parking permit allowed him to park anywhere he liked - even on private land

4th clamped car - a sales rep who left his car behind to go off to a meeting with his manager - for 4 hours.

Everyone paid the release fee and no vehicles were removed from site although the sales rep nearly had his towed as it was there for so long.

I wonder if the signs will still be there tomorrow morning?

Good work!!!

Although personally I probably wouldn't have enforced the fine on the old guy and given him the benefit of the doubt (but that's just me.... I'm a bit of a softie )

 

[rhody]

This ^

A small webcam in a window won't be noticed. I would suggest fitting something like a Foscam IP security camera to the outside of the building, covering the car park as a form of deterrant to would be vandalisers.

Many thanks Steep - I will be costing this option as a safeguard and backup. I like the one with the 30m night vision option - that will do the trick for us

 

[rhody]

Good work!!!

Although personally I probably wouldn't have enforced the fine on the old guy and given him the benefit of the doubt (but that's just me.... I'm a bit of a softie )

Hi Russ - I'm the same as you - I would have felt awkward about this one but we have signed the site over for parking enforcement to a third party and they have a Zero tolerance policy - if a non compliant car is clamped - they want a release fee. No exceptions.

The only option would be for me to pay it so they still get their money - and that's never going to happen.

I did think that the local paper would have a headline - "Disabled pensioner clamped whilst shopping" but it's all quiet on the Western front at the moment but that's the sort of headline I'm dreading.

I have made it very clear through over the top signage that clamping operates on this bit of private land.

These people have driven past 2 such signs at the entrance plus we have one sign per bay - so no-one can say- "We didn't see the signs". The courts only expect the signs to be clearly displayed and visible such that a normally aware person would reasonably be able to see them whilst entering the car park or parking their vehicle.

They drive past them and they park next to them and they still don't get the message :bang:

 

[Russ77]

Hi Russ - I'm the same as you - I would have felt awkward about this one but we have signed the site over for parking enforcement to a third party and they have a Zero tolerance policy - if a non compliant car is clamped - they want a release fee. No exceptions.

The only option would be for me to pay it so they still get their money - and that's never going to happen.

I did think that the local paper would have a headline - "Disabled pensioner clamped whilst shopping" but it's all quiet on the Western front at the moment but that's the sort of headline I'm dreading.

I have made it very clear through over the top signage that clamping operates on this bit of private land.

These people have driven past 2 such signs at the entrance plus we have one sign per bay - so no-one can say- "We didn't see the signs". The courts only expect the signs to be clearly displayed and visible such that a normally aware person would reasonably be able to see them whilst entering the car park or parking their vehicle.

They drive past them and they park next to them and they still don't get the message :bang:

That's all fair enough fella, like you say there is enough warning for people to be aware they shouldn't park there.

I did giggle at the "We just thought the signs were a deterrant" comment

It's like telling a policeman that's booking you for doing 40 in a 30 zone the same thing

 

[minky_monkey]

You do realise that clamping a vehicle with a valid disabled badge contravenes the terms and conditions of a SIA Vehicle Immobiler's licence?

From the SIA website;

Vehicle Immobiliser Licences
In addition to the above, vehicle immobilisers must adhere to the following requirements when carrying out front line vehicle immobiliser activities.

A vehicle must not be clamped/blocked/towed if:

•a valid disabled badge is displayed on the vehicle
•it is an emergency service vehicle which is in use as such.
If you collect a release fee you must provide a receipt, which must include the following:

•the location where the vehicle was clamped, blocked or towed
•your own name and signature
•your licence number
•the date on which the vehicle was clamped, blocked or towed.

 

[mattyg]

You need CCTV to cover the signs. Then CCTV to cover the CCTV.

 

[srichards]

If they claim not have seen the signs then they aren't fit to drive as they wouldn't meet minimum vision requirements... report any that say that to the DVLA

 

[MartynK]

You do realise that clamping a vehicle with a valid disabled badge contravenes the terms and conditions of a SIA Vehicle Immobiler's licence?

A vehicle must not be clamped/blocked/towed if:

•a valid disabled badge is displayed on the vehicle
.

Does this mean that anyone with a valid disabled badge is free to ignore parking restrictions on private property? I find it difficult to believe that they enjoy carte blanch, but I don't know.

 

[Rebel t3i]

there are ample parking spots for disabled drivers often more than for us able people
if they can walk round the shops they can walk round the car park too. To easy to claim benefits and disabled badges imo

 

[Russ77]

Does this mean that anyone with a valid disabled badge is free to ignore parking restrictions on private property? I find it difficult to believe that they enjoy carte blanch, but I don't know.

I was thinking the same, that kind of caveat would effectively allow a disabled badge holder to park on anyone's driveway.

In my case that is a space in a private car park which is on the deeds to my flat.

 

[MartynK]

It may be too easy to claim disability benefits and a parking badge, but that's really another issue and I don't want to go there.

I wonder if the extra privileges do apply on private land, or only for street parking? Does anyone know?

 

[big soft moose]

No - you can't clamp a blue badge user but that doesnt imply they can ignore parking restrictions etc - if a blue badge user is parking irresponsbily you can report them to the issuing authority (there should be a phone number& reference number on the blue badge), if they do it habitually they'll wind up getting their badge withdrawn

 

[minky_monkey]

You need CCTV to cover the signs. Then CCTV to cover the CCTV.

You also need a SIA cctv licence to view the footage. It also has to comply with the dpa.

I've got the cctv, static guarding and a vi licence. And yes as it stands clamping a blue badge holder leaves a clamper on very dodgy ground, potentially you can get your badge revoked.

 

[minky_monkey]

It may be too easy to claim disability benefits and a parking badge, but that's really another issue and I don't want to go there.

I wonder if the extra privileges do apply on private land, or only for street parking? Does anyone know?

We've argued this with the SIA. Blue badges have no legal standing on private property. Hell, you can't even use on in Westminster if it wasn't issued within the borough. But they're adamant on their position. We won't even do them if we think they're being uses fraudulently. We do however report them to the issuing authority, who are usually very good.

 

[PSILVERMAN]

If you look at many car parks both private and council owned they say disabled badges NOT exempt.

 

[rhody]

Blue badge holders cannot park in residents parking bays - it's clearly contained in the T&C's issued with each Blue Badge.

The person concerned here was parking in private residents bays on private land.

As it says in the Blue Badge notes - "The Blue Badge is not a licence to park anywhere" and " Do not park in places reserved for specific users such as resident’s bays or loading bays" So the notes issued to every Blue badge holder are very clear - sadly this driver chose to ignore them.

The driver in question admitted this was not the first occasion he had parked in the residents private bays on private land. He did not dispute the charge for parking on private land - he paid on the spot.

However, thanks for the heads up - I will check it with our enforcement company and check the small print on the signs.

 

[minky_monkey]

Unfortunately, whether it's stated on the signs or not it doesn't make any difference under the terms of the licence.

The licence clearly states a blue badger holder must not be clamped. It's black and white. There's no exceptions under terms and conditions of the car parks themselves, these are rules implemented by the SIA not the blue badge people.

Unfortunately with the internet, information is very freely available and things like this are common knowledge.

At the end of the day, if a licence holder wants to take their chances, I've got no problem with it. Up to them. But they are leaving themselves wide open. I've had a lot of dealings with the SIA - including going to their meetings, both I and other companys have asked them directly and given them allsorts of scenarios, and the answer has always come back to us, No.

 

[minky_monkey]

Oh, they can be ticketed. No problem in that. Except there's no actual means of getting them to pay!

 

[rhody]

Oh, they can be ticketed. No problem in that. Except there's no actual means of getting them to pay!

I'll get the background to this tomorrow. I don't want to be involved in any negative issues over clamping.

However as far as ticketing is concerned - I understood provided you had photographic evidence of the offending vehicle and clearly displayed signs that the magistrates would support the ticket if it was issued correctly.

As the only option to clamping is ticketing - surely that option cannot now be in doubt?

Or am I being given some duff information along the way??? :rules:

However, the Blue Badge holder is clearly not parking in accordance with the Dept of Transport instructions issued with each badge on how and where to park. The DoT handbook clearly states that the badge is not for use on private land, residents parking bays or loading areas.

 

[minky_monkey]

The issue regarding ticketing as it stands, is that it comes under contract law. The contract is between the driver of the vehicle and the parking company.

However, the details obtained from DVLA are for the registered keeper - not the driver. There's no legal requirement for a registered keeper to supply driver details. So in effect if they deny the offense, which they will, the chances of the ticket standing up in court is very little which is why companys don't bother taking it that far. They send out a few letter from debt collection firms - usually part of the same company, if they don't get any joy it gets written off.

I've met quite a few of the owners of the larger PPC's and they're all saying the same thing, if the owner doesn't pay, they won't follow it up to court.

However, having said that, there are moves to introduce legislation to make the registered keeper liable in the same way that they are for a council issued ticket. It's the pay off for scrapping clamping.

What will happen is that if an owner feels the ticket is invalid, then the PPC can take it to court where they will have to produce sufficient evidence to prove the offence. Long winded, but if they do it by the book there shouldn't be a problem.

It's all about balance at the end of the day, landholders should have a right to protect their property - and that shouldn't mean spending thousands on barriers, and the public should be protected from scandellous charges and badly signed sites.

Unfortunately whilst there are plenty of reputable outfits, there are plenty of people that really shouldn't be doing the job! And they're the ones that have frankly caused all the bad press.

I know I keep going around in circles with the blue badge thing, basically the SIA have instigated rules upon VI licence holder. Regardless of what the DoT terms of the BB are, and whether the BB holder is in breach, the terms of the VI licence are clear - you can't clamp them. It's madness, IMO but the SIA really are rather "special" in that respect. They just repeat what is infront of them, no chance of reasoning, we've tried and failed..

My main issue was fraudulent use, we have alot of students that use relatives badges. We know, as they're seen on CCTV parking up and can be seen as the only occupant. When checked with the council, the badge relates to a woman in her 80's. Even though we know it's fraudulant use, we've been told by the SIA that it's off limits. Meanwhile a legitimate BB holder turns up and can't use the bays because they're all occupied!

Being honest BB holders are usually a very small proportion of the people that you'll have to deal with, so whilst not ideal, it's not the end of the world. The worst case scenario is that the one disabled BB holder that gets clamped, happens to be one of those people that "knows his rights" and loves a challenge. Not that it's a bad thing, but they're definitely aggravation to deal with! lol.

If you've ever got a query, you're more than welcome to give me a shout. It's been part of our business for 25 years - we deal with Universities and colleges etc, so everything is straight down the line, they wouldn't work with us if we weren't!

 

[rhody]

If you've ever got a query, you're more than welcome to give me a shout. It's been part of our business for 25 years - we deal with Universities and colleges etc, so everything is straight down the line, they wouldn't work with us if we weren't!

Hi Martin, Very many thanks for your helpful and constructive posts on this important point.

As the private landowner we do not want any negative publicity, and I can't thank you enough for your generous offer of help and advice.

I will get the full background this morning as it is important to me as well.

It looks like the SIA have their heads well and truly in the sand on this one.

Many thanks - Rhody

 

[Steep]

Many thanks Steep - I will be costing this option as a safeguard and backup. I like the one with the 30m night vision option - that will do the trick for us

I have one, night vision is great on it as it's geared towards the IR end of the spectrum though that makes colours odd in daylight. Your only problem is resolution, at 648x480max things like number plates even close up are hard to read but they are good value for money.

 

[johnb]

there are ample parking spots for disabled drivers often more than for us able people
if they can walk round the shops they can walk round the car park too. To easy to claim benefits and disabled badges imo

Slightly to the right of Atilla the Hun then.
On what basis do you make the comment re benefits & disabled badges- are you disabled or on benefits?