Clamping cars as a last resort

[big soft moose]

Slightly to the right of Atilla the Hun then.
On what basis do you make the comment re benefits & disabled badges- are you disabled or on benefits?

from his posts above probably from watching lots of fraudulent use - but that aside he's spot on on the blue badge angle

for example

my freind andy was issued an automatic blue badge when he was diagnosed with sick sinus syndrome - with his pacemaker he's fine and regularly does full day working parties

another freind Robby is a lower limb amputee (bullet in the leg in 'stan) - with his prothesis his principal hobby is hill walking at which he's quicker and fitter than I am - he's talking about doing the welsh 3000s next year - but he got issued a blue badge because he's technically 'disabled'

i also know a guy who's trying out for the paralympic 100ms - agan he get a blue badge

(and on the otherhand my sister suffers with M.E - and some days can hardly walk through excruiciating pain in her legs and arms, but she doesnt get a blue badge, because on other days she's fine )


with that kind of example, you dont have to be right wing to think that something's seriously ammis with the way in which these badges are issued.

 

[Groucho]

from his posts above probably from watching lots of fraudulent use - but that aside he's spot on on the blue badge angle

for example

my freind andy was issued an automatic blue badge when he was diagnosed with sick sinus syndrome - with his pacemaker he's fine and regularly does full day working parties

another freind Robby is a lower limb amputee (bullet in the leg in 'stan) - with his prothesis his principal hobby is hill walking at which he's quicker and fitter than I am - he's talking about doing the welsh 3000s next year - but he got issued a blue badge because he's technically 'disabled'

i also know a guy who's trying out for the paralympic 100ms - agan he get a blue badge

(and on the otherhand my sister suffers with M.E - and some days can hardly walk through excruiciating pain in her legs and arms, but she doesnt get a blue badge, because on other days she's fine )


with that kind of example, you dont have to be right wing to think that something's seriously ammis with the way in which these badges are issued.

Did not think that blue badges were just handed out, thought they had to be applied for and issued on the basis of what answers you gave to the questions, if that is the case, then the people you mentioned who have them must have not been strictly honest with their answers to get them.

But, i could be wrong

 

[big soft moose]

Did not think that blue badges were just handed out, thought they had to be applied for and issued on the basis of what answers you gave to the questions, if that is the case, then the people you mentioned who have them must have not been strictly honest with their answers to get them.

But, i could be wrong

If you apply to be registered disabled (and its granted) then you automatically get a blue badge - in andy's case he had to apply for disability benefit in the period between being diagnosed with sick sinus , and having his pacemaker fitted, in robby's he was automatically put on the disability register when he got his medical discharge from the forces. ( I dunno about the third one as i dont know him that well, he's an aquaintance of robby's)

The point being that its possible to legitimately need to be on the disability register (for example because you need help getting an adapted car, or because you need to be considered under the DDA etc) but be mobile enough that you don't need a blue badge and be issued one anyway

Or equally in my sisters case to be refused disability because you only have an intermitent condition , and need a blue badge but not be issued one

None of which is particularly germane to the OP , because a lot of what he was talking about was misuse of blue badges - ie either people who are clearly fit getting them through being disingenous, or relatives making use of cars with blue badges in.

 

[minky_monkey]

Of of the potential pitfuls of BB's is that it's not always apparent that the driver is actually the badgeholder. They don't have to be in a chair, or on crutches, there's all manner of conditions that allow for a person to be fully entitled to a badge.

This, added to the fact that the picture of the holder is on the rear of the badge doen't give you any clue as to whether it is legitimate unless you contact the issuing authority with the serial number, and even then some are very cagey about telling you anything under the DPA.

This is one of the reasons, I'm very careful about making accusations about misuse. I need to know 110% before I proceed.

 

[Marc]

there are ample parking spots for disabled drivers often more than for us able people
if they can walk round the shops they can walk round the car park too. To easy to claim benefits and disabled badges imo

A common misconception. If you are struggling to find a space, it always seem there are loads of disabled bays free. Unfortunately, it's very rarely the case. On market days, my local town closes the High Street to traffic. This cuts of about 20 disabled bays. This can mean that the only parking available is on the top floor of the multi story car park and the lift only goes up to the floor below!

As for "if they can walk round the shops they can walk round the car park too." Sorry, but that is a real display of ignorance there. :shake:

 

[Marc]

If you apply to be registered disabled (and its granted) then you automatically get a blue badge - in andy's case he had to apply for disability benefit in the period between being diagnosed with sick sinus , and having his pacemaker fitted, in robby's he was automatically put on the disability register when he got his medical discharge from the forces. ( I dunno about the third one as i dont know him that well, he's an aquaintance of robby's)

The point being that its possible to legitimately need to be on the disability register (for example because you need help getting an adapted car, or because you need to be considered under the DDA etc) but be mobile enough that you don't need a blue badge and be issued one anyway

Or equally in my sisters case to be refused disability because you only have an intermitent condition , and need a blue badge but not be issued one

None of which is particularly germane to the OP , because a lot of what he was talking about was misuse of blue badges - ie either people who are clearly fit getting them through being disingenous, or relatives making use of cars with blue badges in.

Well not quite, there is no "registerng as disabled as such".


You can either apply to the council for a blue badge, which would have to be endorsed by a GP or specialist or, if you apply for Disability Living Allowance which is divided into 2 components, mobility and care. Each of these has three levels (low, medium, high) and only if you are awarded the high rate of mobility allowance would you get a blue badge.

 

[big soft moose]

slightly off topic but the ones that really wind me up are the parent and child spaces in superstores - okay blue badge = disability (leaving aside chancers misusing them) , but why does someone with a child automatically get to park front and centre, when they might only be nipping in for some sweets and a paper , wheras someone without a child might be doing the weeks shopping but have to park in the back of beyond bloody miles away.

I'd never use a disabled bay (unless i had a disabled passenger of course) but I'll park in a parent and child bay if I feel like it - and if the supermarket jumped up pocket hitler staff dont like it they can do one.

Incidentally another freind of mine (who isnt disabled) parked in a disablilty bay at the pub one night , and returned to his car to find a laminated note superglued to the windscreen which said " stupidity is not a disability , please park elsewhere in future" - he got zero sympathy from the rest of us who al thought that that was class

 

[big soft moose]

Well not quite, there is no "registerng as disabled as such".


You can either apply to the council for a blue badge, which would have to be endorsed by a GP or specialist or, if you apply for Disability Living Allowance which is divided into 2 components, mobility and care. Each of these has three levels (low, medium, high) and only if you are awarded the high rate of mobility allowance would you get a blue badge.

so how do you explain robby who never applied for any benefits , but automatically got a blue badge when he was medically discharged from the forces ?

Or andy who didnt apply for higher level mobility but still got a blue badge

I presume that someone somewhere in the amorphous maw of the Civil service decided that they needed one, in both cases without reference to them - the first they knew of it was when it arrived in the post (and in robby's case sent it back with an impolitely worded note to the effect that "just because hes lost a foot he's not 'disabled' thankyou very much" )

 

[Marc]

so how do you explain robby who never applied for any benefits , but automatically got a blue badge when he was medically discharged from the forces ?

Or andy who didnt apply for higher level mobility but still got a blue badge

I presume that someone somewhere in the amorphous maw of the Civil service decided that they needed one, in both cases without reference to them - the first they knew of it was when it arrived in the post (and in robby's case sent it back with an impolitely worded note to the effect that "just because hes lost a foot he's not 'disabled' thankyou very much" )

Well I wouldn't know but it may well be an automatic thing with regard to the military. You don't specifically apply for higher level mobility, you apply for DLA and they decide which level, if any, you get. It's also possible that a GP would sort it out for a patient but I would imagine andy would have had to apply for a blue badge at some point as he would have had to provide a photo.

 

[big soft moose]

Well I wouldn't know but it may well be an automatic thing with regard to the military. You don't specifically apply for higher level mobility, you apply for DLA and they decide which level, if any, you get. It's also possible that a GP would sort it out for a patient but I would imagine andy would have had to apply for a blue badge at some point as he would have had to provide a photo.

Knowing Andy his doctor probably asked him to bring in a photo and he did without asking why - he's like that.

Robby's badge used a military photo which tends to lend weight to it being an automatic thing with people who are medically discharged with 'disabilities'

 

[unplugged]

slightly off topic but the ones that really wind me up are the parent and child spaces in superstores - okay blue badge = disability

The spaces are supposed to be wider to allow for prams etc to be erected. But the fact they put them near the doors in prime spaces irritates me too.

 

[Marc]

Knowing Andy his doctor probably asked him to bring in a photo and he did without asking why - he's like that.

Robby's badge used a military photo which tends to lend weight to it being an automatic thing with people who are medically discharged with 'disabilities'

Would seem that the military is the exception then.

On another note, did your sister actually apply for DLA or just for a blue badge? he guidelines for filling out the forms say to use your worse day so it shouldn't be an issue if there are days when she can walk.

 

[Marc]

The spaces are supposed to be wider to allow for prams etc to be erected. But the fact they put them near the doors in prime spaces irritates me too.

If you have small children/toddlers, I can understand where parents might feel safer not having to take them across busy car parks. Mind you, I've seen plenty who park in those spaces with teenagers!

 

[unplugged]

Granted but spaces in front of the entrance are a premium.

I don't see why having a couple of kids grants you a priority parking space

Being disabled however is a different ball game.

 

[minky_monkey]

It's simple economics, supermarkets pander to families. They usually spend the most so they bend over backwards to encourage them..

 

[unplugged]

Tis true I know and it's one of the reasons I would happily park in a Parent and Child space rather than the back end of the carpark.

 

[mattyg]

I parked in one the other day when it was raining. I didn't half get some dirty looks when my son and I got out the car.

He's still my CHILD even at 16yrs old

 

[Lynton]

Good work!!!

Although personally I probably wouldn't have enforced the fine on the old guy and given him the benefit of the doubt (but that's just me.... I'm a bit of a softie )

My thoughts as well Russ, but quite often some OAP's can be canny old codgers......

 

[Splog]

I would have thought the parent and toddler spaces at the front of the store are simply a H&S attempt to keep young children away from the majority of traffic using the car park.

 

[Lynton]

from his posts above probably from watching lots of fraudulent use - but that aside he's spot on on the blue badge angle

for example

my freind andy was issued an automatic blue badge when he was diagnosed with sick sinus syndrome - with his pacemaker he's fine and regularly does full day working parties

another freind Robby is a lower limb amputee (bullet in the leg in 'stan) - with his prothesis his principal hobby is hill walking at which he's quicker and fitter than I am - he's talking about doing the welsh 3000s next year - but he got issued a blue badge because he's technically 'disabled'

i also know a guy who's trying out for the paralympic 100ms - agan he get a blue badge

(and on the otherhand my sister suffers with M.E - and some days can hardly walk through excruiciating pain in her legs and arms, but she doesnt get a blue badge, because on other days she's fine )


with that kind of example, you dont have to be right wing to think that something's seriously ammis with the way in which these badges are issued.

Quite agree. When I broke both legs and ankles and was in a wheelchair, tried to get a short term temp blue badge.... on the phone for about an hour to discover that there is no such thing.

I then suggested to council that maybe should be something set up, i.e. a different coloured badge valid for only x weeks and had to be signed off by 2 consultants in hospital.... that got poo poo'ed as well.

Fortunately, a lot of private parking places, i.e. Sainsbury's , Tesco's and local shopping "mall" were a bit more openminded and relaxed about things......

 

[MartynK]

I parked in one the other day when it was raining. I didn't half get some dirty looks when my son and I got out the car.

He's still my CHILD even at 16yrs old

Hmm, I did the same thing with my daughter, who is in her mid-twenties. Mind you, she's small and does look young for her age.

 

[rhody]

You do realise that clamping a vehicle with a valid disabled badge contravenes the terms and conditions of a SIA Vehicle Immobiler's licence?

Hi minky monkey. After your valuable comments I spoke to the enforcement company to see what had happened.

They photographed the car parked in the residents private bays on private land.

They took several photographs of the car, including the dashboard and in none of the photographs was a Blue Badge being being displayed.

It was only when the driver realised he had been clamped that he played the Blue Badge card producing it from his glove box.

Anyway, he paid the release fee, went on his way and that was how it was left.

Another lesson learnt in my rapidly growing knowledge of parking enforcement

Thank you for raising the issue - it's good to know that, even if I rarely have to use it.

 

[rhody]

I parked in one the other day when it was raining. I didn't half get some dirty looks when my son and I got out the car.
He's still my CHILD even at 16yrs old

Now that's lateral thinking

 

[mattyg]

I dont break em but I'll bend em to hell



I've yet to try it with my Dad.

 

[big soft moose]

On another note, did your sister actually apply for DLA or just for a blue badge? he guidelines for filling out the forms say to use your worse day so it shouldn't be an issue if there are days when she can walk.

Both

she didnt qualify for domestic assistance because " she could get halfway up stairs on her own" - fat lot of good that is when the toilet is all the way upstairs

that was a few years ago - and I wound up having to take a year out to help my mum take care of her

she also didnt qualify for DLA because they called her in for an assessment and then said she was well enough to cope

(this appears to be quite common - they refused by uncle derek who's got alzheimers on the basis that my aunty chris can take care of him even though she's had a stroke - because " she can tell him what to do , and he can do it " erm... yeah ....okay )

 

[big soft moose]

I parked in one the other day when it was raining. I didn't half get some dirty looks when my son and I got out the car.

He's still my CHILD even at 16yrs old

the ones in our tesco say "parents with children under 5" - I parked in one the other day with my dog in the car and when the parking hitler asked me wtf , i told him she was my extremly hirsuite child - i'm still waiting to see if i get a fine for that one, but i'm not planning on paying it even if i do

 

[minky_monkey]

Hi minky monkey. After your valuable comments I spoke to the enforcement company to see what had happened.

They photographed the car parked in the residents private bays on private land.

They took several photographs of the car, including the dashboard and in none of the photographs was a Blue Badge being being displayed.

It was only when the driver realised he had been clamped that he played the Blue Badge card producing it from his glove box.

Anyway, he paid the release fee, went on his way and that was how it was left.

Another lesson learnt in my rapidly growing knowledge of parking enforcement

Thank you for raising the issue - it's good to know that, even if I rarely have to use it.

No problem!

 

[big soft moose]

If you have small children/toddlers, I can understand where parents might feel safer not having to take them across busy car parks.

true , but that could equally be said of pensioners, younger people with injuries etc

 

[panther_87k]

Both

she didnt qualify for domestic assistance because " she could get halfway up stairs on her own" - fat lot of good that is when the toilet is all the way upstairs

that was a few years ago - and I wound up having to take a year out to help my mum take care of her

she also didnt qualify for DLA because they called her in for an assessment and then said she was well enough to cope

(this appears to be quite common - they refused by uncle derek who's got alzheimers on the basis that my aunty chris can take care of him even though she's had a stroke - because " she can tell him what to do , and he can do it " erm... yeah ....okay )

I can understand your frustration with the DLA system, my partner is currently fighting with them himself, he's 28 and has been diagnosed (after 6 yrs) with rheumatoid arthritis. They seem to have completely ignored what was written in the claim form and just gone with the two sentences written by the GP, even though we told them he hadnt seen the GP for the problem itself in 9 months or so. The GP and the consultant havent got a clue about the problems he faces day to day, all they know is he had arthritis and has to take this drug or that drug to help it.

 

[Marc]

Both

she didnt qualify for domestic assistance because " she could get halfway up stairs on her own" - fat lot of good that is when the toilet is all the way upstairs

that was a few years ago - and I wound up having to take a year out to help my mum take care of her

she also didnt qualify for DLA because they called her in for an assessment and then said she was well enough to cope

(this appears to be quite common - they refused by uncle derek who's got alzheimers on the basis that my aunty chris can take care of him even though she's had a stroke - because " she can tell him what to do , and he can do it " erm... yeah ....okay )

Sadly, it's often a bit of a postcode lottery with DLA. Different authorities seem to interpret the criteria in different ways Some of them seem to take the "what things can we find in order to reject the application rather than how it can help the applicant.

true , but that could equally be said of pensioners, younger people with injuries etc

Well, if pensioners are that vulnerable walking across a car park then they would probably have a blue badge anyway. But I do think they should as Lynton said, have a temporary blue badge system in place for injuries and shorter term illnesses.

 

[DavidMarq]

I'll get the background to this tomorrow. I don't want to be involved in any negative issues over clamping.

However as far as ticketing is concerned - I understood provided you had photographic evidence of the offending vehicle and clearly displayed signs that the magistrates would support the ticket if it was issued correctly.

As the only option to clamping is ticketing - surely that option cannot now be in doubt?

Or am I being given some duff information along the way??? :rules:

However, the Blue Badge holder is clearly not parking in accordance with the Dept of Transport instructions issued with each badge on how and where to park. The DoT handbook clearly states that the badge is not for use on private land, residents parking bays or loading areas.

Well it seems that your well vetted clamping company has already acted unlawfully by clamping a disabled blue badge holder.

It is not only contrary to the terms of the SIA licence but it is contrary to statute law and subject to prosecution. Contravening the terms of the licence is a criminal offence subject to a prison term of up to six month or a fine up to level 5 on the standard scale, which iirc is £5000.

Are your clampers licensed? A licensed clamper would know that they cannot clamp blue badge holders.

It is also a criminal offence to knowingly employ unlicensed clampers subject to the same tariff as above. Have you checked that the SIA licences are valid.

You do also realise that if anyone successfully sues to get their money back then whoever employed the clampers will be included in the action and will held liable by the courts. I know of many cases where landowners have had to settle CCJs because the clampers just don't care.

Other things to ask yourself are things like are the signs lawful, most signs used by clampers are not. Also do the clampers issue lawful receipts. if not you the employer of the clampers will again be liable in any civil action.

Rather you than me.

 

[panther_87k]

@DavidMarq, i refer you to post #102

 

[big soft moose]

although that said (and those points have already been covered in this thread) if the blue badge holder wasnt displaying his badge (by the ops account he got it out of his glove box after he was clamped) then no offence was commited - because they didnt clamp a vehicle displaying a blue badge - QED

even licenced clampers dont possess powers of ESP to tell what's in a cars glove box

 

[Steep]

/edit - beaten to the punch

 

[DavidMarq]

@DavidMarq, i refer you to post #102

Missed that post, I did scan most of the thread

However experience says that my other points stand...

 

[Lynton]

Well it seems that your well vetted clamping company has already acted unlawfully by clamping a disabled blue badge holder.

It is not only contrary to the terms of the SIA licence but it is contrary to statute law and subject to prosecution. Contravening the terms of the licence is a criminal offence subject to a prison term of up to six month or a fine up to level 5 on the standard scale, which iirc is £5000.

Are your clampers licensed? A licensed clamper would know that they cannot clamp blue badge holders.

It is also a criminal offence to knowingly employ unlicensed clampers subject to the same tariff as above. Have you checked that the SIA licences are valid.

You do also realise that if anyone successfully sues to get their money back then whoever employed the clampers will be included in the action and will held liable by the courts. I know of many cases where landowners have had to settle CCJs because the clampers just don't care.

Other things to ask yourself are things like are the signs lawful, most signs used by clampers are not. Also do the clampers issue lawful receipts. if not you the employer of the clampers will again be liable in any civil action.

Rather you than me.

Oh I'd love to be the defense lawyer up against you when it gets to court..... "and pray tell me, how my client, a registed SIA jobbywosit, is supposed to know, that the silly old duffer is a blue badge holder given that his blue badge was tucked away in his glovebox (and not displayed as required) , at the time of the alleged infraction?"

 

[malo50]

Missed that post, I did scan most of the thread

However experience says that my other points stand...

...but your main one was a nonsense.

 

[big soft moose]

...but your main one was a nonsense.

yeah but apart from that .....

 

[DavidMarq]

Oh I'd love to be the defense lawyer up against you when it gets to court..... "and pray tell me, how my client, a registed SIA jobbywosit, is supposed to know, that the silly old duffer is a blue badge holder given that his blue badge was tucked away in his glovebox (and not displayed as required) , at the time of the alleged infraction?"

See post above.

Can you also confirm that the signs and receipt issued were lawful in you defence? I have not seen many that are...

 

[big soft moose]

See post above.

Can you also confirm that the signs and receipt issued were lawful in you defence? I have not seen many that are...

can you confirm that the ones in question arent ?

given that we are talking about a criminal prosecution its up to 'you' to prove that an offence was commited (though frankly its hard to see the CPS letting this particular one get anywhere near a court)