You Really Want Electric Cars?

Lithium battery fires are a very real, very dangerous thing. Much under reported or acknowledged.
 
Fires in combustion vehicles are at a far higher rate than electric ones. For those of us with a memory remember the Vauxhalls that were burning people's houses down and all the BMWs setting themselves alight regularly a few years ago. My own BMW petrol car was recalled for the same risk.

electrek.co

Government data show gasoline vehicles are up to 100x more prone to fires than EVs

Aside from the argument that gasoline vehicles operate via combustion, a study shows how prevalent gas vehicle fires are compared to EVs.
electrek.co electrek.co
 
Imagine the fire a Hydrogen powered car will produce.
 
Many moons ago I bought a laptop.

It appeared to be running very hot, so I took it back to the dealership. The manager said it was nothing to worry about because computers never caught fire. I told him I was still worried. He said (reluctantly) he'd get his tech to check it over. Wife and I went off to find something to eat, did a little shopping, returned to the dealership.

Outside were two fire engines and lots of hoses. :wideyed:
 
srichards said:
Fires in combustion vehicles are at a far higher rate than electric ones.
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The vast majority of vehicle fires are due to electrical faults; regardless of the method of propulsion... but modern electronics/batteries can be smarter/safer than older technologies.
 
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I have often mused this over the years but to be fair i think i would rather take my chances with batteries behind me than the 70 litres of unleaded my little snail can carry , i am lead to believe that stuff goes up rather quick and does one a lot more damage in the short term.
 
Mr Bump said:
I have often mused this over the years but to be fair i think i would rather take my chances with batteries behind me than the 70 litres of unleaded my little snail can carry , i am lead to believe that stuff goes up rather quick and does one a lot more damage in the short term.
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I was on a bike track day at Brands Hatch when a guy on a GSX-R750 dropped it into druids, the thank split and there was a big flash...... I'm glad I couldn't keep up with him and was about 50m away!!!
 
Going back a few years I was driving a car which caught fire whilst travelling at "motorway speeds" on the M3. There was sufficient time to pull onto the hard shoulder and exit the vehicle before it filled with smoke. Although it burned fiercely and was nowt but a shell by the time the fire service arrived the fuel tank never exploded - the tyres did though. I have also watched an LPG powered vehicle burn and the gas tanks (2 x 40l) didn't explode either. The pressure release valve created a controlled jet of gas which added to the fire but prevented an explosion. Hydrogen vehicles have similar safety features.

The time between the first puffs of smoke from the bus and the explosion of the batteries wouldn't have given anyone on board any chance of getting off if it had been moving. In fact, I doubt anyone would have known anything about it until the explosion as the smoke was above and would have been blown back away from the bus.
 
Bristolian said:
fact, I doubt anyone would have known anything about it until the explosion as the smoke was above and would have been blown back away from the bus.
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A bit odd that — there seemed to be an explosion in the roof but surely the batteries aren’t up there?
 
There was a crash in a F1 GP last year. The car hit a barrier and burst into flames. A steward attacked the flames and ( i think) a safety car medic pulled the driver out and to safety.
These are unmistakably brave guys. However, after the fuel fire was extinguished the red ligh was flashing on the DRS system lithium battery. They wouldn't go within 20 yards of it.
A lithium cell collapse creates a chain reaction. It's self feeding, needs no oxygen and 10,000 gals of water barely touches it.
A Lithium expert was on the radio a few weeks back. When asked if he would live near a Solar farm feeding Lithium buffer cells he said he wouldn't live within 2 miles.
 
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sphexx said:
A bit odd that — there seemed to be an explosion in the roof but surely the batteries aren’t up there?
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I was surprised when the written commentary said they were - with all the underfloor space freed up by no fuel tank, I would have thought they'd be down there.
I've seen a video of a Tesla battery going up and that seemed to go pretty much cell by cell (albeit fairly quickly!) rather than an explosion.
 
Jelster said:
Putting the batteries in the roof would give it an awful centre of balance. Seems very odd.
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It does. I wonder if it's a safety design? It would be a bad idea to be anywhere near a lithium fire but given the choice, underneath would be better than on top for the very first moments.

Other reports say that this *may* have been a new experimental kind of battery but the manufacturers aren't answering questions ATM.
srichards said:
Fires in combustion vehicles are at a far higher rate than electric ones. For those of us with a memory remember the Vauxhalls that were burning people's houses down and all the BMWs setting themselves alight regularly a few years ago. My own BMW petrol car was recalled for the same risk.

electrek.co

Government data show gasoline vehicles are up to 100x more prone to fires than EVs

Aside from the argument that gasoline vehicles operate via combustion, a study shows how prevalent gas vehicle fires are compared to EVs.
electrek.co electrek.co
Click to expand...

This is an interesting site - especially the table at the bottom.

www.tesla-fire.com

Tesla Fire: Digital record of Tesla fire incidents

Tesla Fire records information about Tesla car fires and other Tesla fire incidents that received news coverage.
www.tesla-fire.com www.tesla-fire.com

Insurers will say that the Tesla data is immature and I'd want to see this trended over time (the suspicion is that earlier models were worse and their faults have been addressed) but Teslas made between 2016 and 2018 do seem a little more likely to burst into flames for no reason than the average vehicle.
 
Cockney said:
There was a crash in a F1 GP last year. The car hit a barrier and burst into flames. A steward attacked the flames and ( i think) a safety car medic pulled the driver out and to safety.
These are unmistakably brave guys. However, after the fuel fire was extinguished the red ligh was flashing on the DRS system lithium battery. They wouldn't go within 20 yards of it.
A lithium cell collapse creates a chain reaction. It's self feeding, needs no oxygen and 10,000 gals of water barely touches it.
A Lithium expert was on the radio a few weeks back. When asked if he would live near a Solar farm feeding Lithium buffer cells he said he wouldn't live within 2 miles.
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Are you refering to Grosjeans crash? the driver of the Medical car tried to suppress the flames while the Doctor pulled Grosjean out the car.
The Red light indicates that the hybrid system is not safe and that there is a risk of huge electrical shock if you touch the car. The DRS is only a section of the rear wing that opens to reduce drag.
I cant recall the race or the driver but this year a car stopped on circuit and the driver was told by his engineer to jump from the car so as not to ground himself as the Red light was on. the Driver was telling the marshalls all to keep away and then one of the team had to go down to the car with special gloves to disable it.
 
Jelster said:
Putting the batteries in the roof would give it an awful centre of balance. Seems very odd.
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Exactly why I thought it odd. I do have some nagging memory of batteries in bus roofs but can’t think where I might have read it.
 
AgentOrange76 said:
Are you refering to Grosjeans crash? the driver of the Medical car tried to suppress the flames while the Doctor pulled Grosjean out the car.
The Red light indicates that the hybrid system is not safe and that there is a risk of huge electrical shock if you touch the car. The DRS is only a section of the rear wing that opens to reduce drag.
I cant recall the race or the driver but this year a car stopped on circuit and the driver was told by his engineer to jump from the car so as not to ground himself as the Red light was on. the Driver was telling the marshalls all to keep away and then one of the team had to go down to the car with special gloves to disable it.
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Yes that was the crash I was referring to. Thanks for the info.
 
Tesla have started to switch from Lithium Ion batteries to Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries which are said to be more thermally stable, more durable and cheaper( for the moment) but have a lower range due to having a lower energy density
Currently the majority of EV Lithium Ion batteries are produced by LG, Samsung & Panasonic, switching to Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries puts the power squarely into China's hands as currently they produce approximately 95% of the global Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, and that does have potential political ramifications.
 
Chevin said:
Currently the majority of EV Lithium Ion batteries are produced by LG, Samsung & Panasonic, switching to Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries puts the power squarely into China's hands as currently they produce approximately 95% of the global Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, and that does have potential political ramifications.
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What we need is a paranoid megalomaniac to conquer the world, so we are all one state, and that'll be fine.....
 
Mr Bump said:
I have often mused this over the years but to be fair i think i would rather take my chances with batteries behind me than the 70 litres of unleaded my little snail can carry , i am lead to believe that stuff goes up rather quick and does one a lot more damage in the short term.
Click to expand...
Engine fires following a crash are generally hydraulic (brake / clutch) fluid leaking on to the exhaust, because it will spontaneously combust at exhaust manifold temperatures. Petrol won't, despite going up very fast once it's ignited, it requires a source of ignition to get going as there's nothing hot enough to get it going without one in an engine bay. The combusting brake fluid can provide it, though almost all of the fuel is usually at the opposite end of the vehicle to the engine (my Twingo is an exception).

Basically (contrary to lots of Hollywood movies) you can pour petrol on a hot exhaust and it won't catch fire, but don't try the same with a can of DOT4 as it will.
 
Having had a car catch fire purely due to petrol falling on a hot exhaust manifold, I'm not sure that's right.
 
Nod said:
Having had a car catch fire purely due to petrol falling on a hot exhaust manifold, I'm not sure that's right.
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I got told it at a fire safety training day at a race circuit in the early 1990s. Doesn't make it true of course, but it's an environment where they have to deal with crashed cars leaking fluids so I've tended to rely on it.

The increased prevalence of exhaust driven turbos on moderns, and of diesel in cars rather than vans, may have changed things.
 
My fire was in an Audi 80, normally aspirated so no red hot turbo.
 
simon ess said:
I have a vague memory of being told that petrol is hard to ignite but petrol vapour is real easy to ignite.
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When I was doing my ADR we were told petrol becomes volatile at 21oC
So as long as the temperature was below that, you could drop a match into a bucket of petrol and it would extinguish.
I never had the balls to test that theory though :D
 
Cobra said:
When I was doing my ADR we were told petrol becomes volatile at 21oC
So as long as the temperature was below that, you could drop a match into a bucket of petrol and it would extinguish.
I never had the balls to test that theory though :D
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I did it with paraffin when I was a teenager...
 
Chatting to an ex boss (car sales owner) and I asked if he thought there would be a surge in ev sales, “F*ck I hope not”was the reply, “what an earth would the trade do with an influx of normal! cars that nobody wants, or expects to buy for pennies”.
 
mj4456 said:
Chatting to an ex boss (car sales owner) and I asked if he thought there would be a surge in ev sales, “F*ck I hope not”was the reply, “what an earth would the trade do with an influx of normal! cars that nobody wants, or expects to buy for pennies”.
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yep thats why diesel cars will fall of a cliff in the next few years especially high end cars their value will plummet
 
Cobra said:
When I was doing my ADR we were told petrol becomes volatile at 21oC
So as long as the temperature was below that, you could drop a match into a bucket of petrol and it would extinguish.
I never had the balls to test that theory though :D
Click to expand...

The "flash point" of petroleum, ie the lowest temperature point at which a flammable vapour is present, is -23C. At temperature's in excess of the flash point an ignition source will ignite the vapour. Flash point is normally accepted as the flammability of the liquid.

So, unless you want instant depilation ... don't try it :D
 
A bucket (although I'd recommend a mug - who can afford to fill a bucket with petrol these days?!!!) FULL to the brim would probably douse the match but 1/2 full would trap enough vapour to be a rather more dangerous experiment.
 
Nod said:
A bucket (although I'd recommend a mug - who can afford to fill a bucket with petrol these days?!!!) FULL to the brim would probably douse the match but 1/2 full would trap enough vapour to be a rather more dangerous experiment.
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Yes. It's only the vapour thats flammable.
 
lithium fires are very special. We had special training to deal with metal fires, which mostly involved running away from it just twice as fast.

Safest cars are diesels in that respect. They burn very slowly and are quite unlikely to explode even after major penetration.
 
Mr Bump said:
yep thats why diesel cars will fall of a cliff in the next few years especially high end cars their value will plummet
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Let me know when I can get my A6 quattro TDI or X5 for pennies.
 
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