When are people going to realise

magicaxeman

magicaxeman

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No
That in buying grey imports they are putting British retailers out of business as well as breaking the law by dodging the import duty and tax
this has a two fold effect, the first and most serious one is that it directly affects the UK dealers sales and the resultant drop in sales means people lose their jobs and towns lose their camera retailers which are not just shops but local centres of photographers, many of the staff having years of experience they are more than willing to share. By dodging the tax you are directly affecting the income the government relies on, not to stuff their pockets but to pay for things like the repair of potholes, disabled and elderly care etc.
It really gets my goat when people try to push down your legally bought gears price to compete with grey imports.. hmm why are we still sanitising them with that title, they’re smuggled goods most often brought in by declaring the goods as having a very low value but buying them is not different to buying smuggled booze and fags.
so would you expect your local Tesco’s to sell you a bottle of scotch or 20 ciggies for the same price as you can get them from your mate bert round the corner?
If you know you can get something cheaper by buying smuggled then just bloody well buy it without hassling sellers .
 
magicaxeman said:
hmm why are we still sanitising them with that title, they’re smuggled goods most often brought in by declaring the goods as having a very low value but buying them is not different to buying smuggled booze and fags.
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I agree.

I see it all as part of the universal rule of human nature: "bad drives out good" and I'd like to see the courts dealing with all this nonsense with far stiffer financial penalties. I'd like to see all such penalties used directly to recruit and train more staff for the Border Force.
 
It's an HMRC matter. I imagine they don't see it as likely to produce the amount of money it would cost to enforce.
 
I would rather be dealing with a UK dealer, one that I have known for many years and survives in spite of the town becoming a DSS pit with a dead high street, I've watched the market dwindle from something that stretched the whole road to just a few mediocre stands now...So the town has no appeal and that has to affect footfall. If Mrs Photographer has nowhere to browse for an hour or two, then the Mr Photographer is denied his chance to go into the camera shop. Thankfully, at least Colwyn Bay has a decent cheese shop (miracle how it keeps going) and a Morrisons that still sells Ambrosia Macaroni.
 
Well this is complex.
The retail sector in this country is in a sad state, but it’s not just down to grey imports, the sad fact is that online retail is more efficient. And humans value efficiency the vast majority of the time.

When I started in photography (early 80’s) we had a great independent camera shop in the town centre. But I bought my first camera from Argos and my 2nd from Dixons (who were both cheaper, cos they were box shifters). I used the camera shop for D&P* and small accessories.

But massive adverts in the camera press urged me to buy mail order from a big shop in Leicester. And by the mid 80’s that firm had a shop in my town, as they went on to dominate the market. Taking advantage of their buying power to eclipse Curry’s and wipe out the majority of independent retailers.

Then came the Internet, and mail order but better meant that margins could be slimmer and bulk buying leveraged better deals.

For most modern customers, we’re just chasing a good deal, just as we’ve always done, and for most people the legal implications don’t come into it.

In the same way we pay our window cleaner in cash, and our builder cos he offers a discount. We feel detached from the legal implications because we’re conditioned to look for bargains.

If you want to have the luxury of independent camera shops you’re about 40 years too late to stop their demise. And pointing the finger at the latest nail in the coffin is frankly ignoring history to fit a narrative.

*the D&P quickly moved to Klick (cheaper more efficient) except for pro stuff that needed the care of a good lab (see the pattern)
 
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I remember when Jessops were great before they became the 'Great disruptor', then came Warehouse Express, that was before t'Internet.

I also think Jacobs would have survived much better if my namesake had invested in them rather than trying to rescue the Jessops Brand
 
This thread also triggered a reminiscence for me....

Wallace Heaton and their Blue Book

My brother & I went to their Earls Court branch often to window shop and buy.....I got my Exa 1a there (the start of various part exchanges and next purchases). IIRC the manager there was ex military and a Tank Commander in WW2
 
magicaxeman said:
By dodging the tax you are directly affecting the income the government relies on, not to stuff their pockets but to pay for things like the repair of potholes, disabled and elderly care etc.
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I agree, evading tax is immoral as well as illegal. But it's difficult to take a moral stance on this when we have a government that actively supports massive frauds, gives grossly overpriced contracts to its mates and screws both legitimate businesses and the public. That isn't a political statement, all political parties seem to have the same approach.
Phil V said:
Well this is complex.
The retail sector in this country is in a sad state, but it’s not just down to grey imports, the sad fact is that online retail is more efficient. And humans value efficiency the vast majority of the time.
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But is online retail more efficient?
The biggest single problem with online sales is that customers can't see the goods before they buy them. This opens the door to deceptive marketing, which is only slightly offset by online customer reviews (many of which are false). The massive advantage of having bricks and mortar camera shops was that we could get advice from the sales staff, but that advantage assumes that the sales staff actually understand the products they sell, and also assumes that they are making equal profit on all products, and would give impartial advice.

We don't need camera shops to know whether or not an item has the right spec for us, but there are other factors too. For example, I think that the Canon R6 will do everything I need it to, but I need a camera shop (or a friend who has one) to discover that it's too small and fiddly for my big hands - so if I bought one online I would send it back, which is far from efficient, reduces profit for the seller and so increases prices.

And this applies to most things. Car sales have moved online. We don't need second-hand car dealers because we can buy from Cazoo, but most of us actually want to see a car "in the flesh" and test drive it. I would never buy a car online, and the people who invested in Cazoo when they launched have now learned, the hard way, that I'm not alone - the share price has crashed, a £100,000 investment is now worth £20 . . .

In theory, online sales offer more choice, you can get anything on Amazon - in theory - but in practice the process of selling on there is so complex and so expensive that sellers can only list a very limited number of items, severely restricting choice, and limiting those choices to the items with the highest profit margins, mainly because the only people who make any profit from Amazon sales is Amazon, their charges are exorbitant and constantly increasing. This doesn't only reduce choice, it also reduces customer service, because retailers need reasonable profit margins to look after their customers.

It's the same with Uber. Booking a taxi online has taken over from local mini cab firms, which are going bust daily. Uber prices are going up because of the reduced competition, but they don't share their profits with their drivers, whose % is going down, just like Amazon sellers. I have a friend who drives for Uber, he told me just last week that if he works 12 hours a day he can earn £7 per hour:(

Look closer to home. Yongnuo completely disrupted the flashgun market by producing much cheaper flashgun than the camera brand ones, but that market is now completely dead because they ran out of customers. Godox, again selling online only, and selling to some very dodgy traders, disrupted the lighting market. They now have a monopoly, and so choices are fewer and prices keep going up.
 
Garry Edwards said:
The biggest single problem with online sales is that customers can't see the goods before they buy them. This opens the door to deceptive marketing,
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That's why we have very generous consumer laws for online purchases.

I too would never buy a car online. It's far to big of a purchase both in the price and the size of the goods but a camera or kettle from Amazon is quick and easy and usually with me the next day.

Our nearest town is 10 miles away and even if you do go there you usually find that the shop you expect to stock what you want doesn't have it. We needed a new kettle a couple of months ago, went on Currys website and found one we like in the colour we liked. Popped into the store while we were in town but they don't stock that colour so we went home and ordered it online.

I don't think you can only blame online retail for the demise of the high street. Most high streets are dingy s*** holes which just aren't pleasant places to be and cost a fortune to park anywhere. I'd much rather stay at home and get something delivered to my front door.
 
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Retail trading has been going through a COMPLETE transition.
Most "STUFF" can be bought on line at a cheaper price and with next day delivery.
HAIRCUTS can not be bought on line.
Highstreet outlets need to have a high degree of personal service and hands on elements to be able to thrive.

This is no longer the case for hardware like cameras.
However there is a small but regular demand for specialist outlets when people can handle and compare items.
These have to be conveniently located where they have easy access to large population centers and be able to serve specialist needs of both professionals and amateurs. They need to be able to do this in large enough volume, to compete on price with online traders, or they will become no more than demonstrators to people who do not purchase.
There is probably only sufficient demand to keep 4 or5 such outlets going on a long term basis in the UK.
Unfortunately many areas will be poorly served as our transport infrastructure is both costly and inconvenient.

I can see a time when town and city centres will be entirely devoid of specialist retailers. In their place will be several large out of town clusters of distributers serving perhaps entire geographic regions. These centres will be linked to online distribution and direct logistic centres. Each cluster would support specialist hands on viewing and training where necessary.
Most other retail sales and advice would be served by online AI.
Town centers would be made up of entertainment, hospitality, personal services, and time sensitive convenience outlets. And may be outlets catering to tourist needs.
 
ecoleman said:
That's why we have very generous consumer laws for online purchases.
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Which are, in turn, exploited by some, who use them to provide 'free rental' of items (buy, use for a one-off occasion, return), or in return scams (EG buy an expensive lens, then return a similarly sized cheap lens).
 
Faldrax said:
Which are, in turn, exploited by some, who use them to provide 'free rental' of items (buy, use for a one-off occasion, return), or in return scams (EG buy an expensive lens, then return a similarly sized cheap lens).
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Well that's down to the retailer. If a retailer is stupid enough to accept a similarly sized cheap lens instead of the one they shipped then that's on them. I've had a number of instances where a customer has returned their old faulty charger instead of the new one we just shipped. We scan the serial numbers of every product that leaves us so it's very easy to spot. They just get an email telling them to jog on.

The law does provide for retailers reducing the amount of refunds for goods that have been returned used or not in a saleable condition but I agree it can be difficult to prove. Hence why I said we have "generous" consumer laws.
 
ecoleman said:
That's why we have very generous consumer laws for online purchases.
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True, and we need that consumer protection, but it does add a lot to the cost. It is also greatly abused by the public, who know that Amazon and eBay will always support even fraudulent claims.
Terrywoodenpic said:
However there is a small but regular demand for specialist outlets when people can handle and compare items.
These have to be conveniently located where they have easy access to large population centers and be able to serve specialist needs of both professionals and amateurs. They need to be able to do this in large enough volume, to compete on price with online traders, or they will become no more than demonstrators to people who do not purchase.
There is probably only sufficient demand to keep 4 or5 such outlets going on a long term basis in the UK.
Unfortunately many areas will be poorly served as our transport infrastructure is both costly and inconvenient.
Click to expand...
They do it very well in China. Take photography as an example (although it applies to all specialist retail products)
Every large city will have one "Photography hub". Ground floor will probably be Canon, Nikon and similar cameras and lenses.
Floor 1 will be medium format
Floor 2 will be large format
Floor 3 will be darkroom
Apart from the ground floor, lots of tiny shops, offering (between them) everything that's available. Go from shop to shop and bargain, it's a win-win situation. We've never had anything close to that in this country.
 
Retail prices are fixed usually by the manufacturer even though price fixing is illegal in the UK . I see the OP has failed to mention this in the first post, I wonder why?. The answer is to allow retailers to sell at a price the market is willing to spend and then good bye to grey imports.

Sorry but if I want the same product at a cheaper price and save a bit of money then I will and have done. My betting is that most on here have bargained down the price on something or other at one stage, even here on this site in items for sale
 
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This is completely ignoring the elephants in the room of bricks-and-mortar retail: rent and business rates.
I looked into starting a bookshop locally. Leave aside the actual lack of demand from a "does it have pictures" population, the monthly cost of a modest shop in a fairly central location was going to be £1500 rent and nearly £1000 rates. Adding utilities and insurance, that is a hell of a lot of overheads to cover before actually being able to pay wages. In the case of a camera shop, I guess you'd need to sell at least half a dozen £2k cameras or lenses each month, plus rely on the little stuff to actually make a living. Is that remotely realistic even if there weren't grey imports etc? I think not, personally.
 
Garry Edwards said:
I agree, evading tax is immoral as well as illegal. But it's difficult to take a moral stance on this when we have a government that actively supports massive frauds, gives grossly overpriced contracts to its mates and screws both legitimate businesses and the public. That isn't a political statement, all political parties seem to have the same approach.

But is online retail more efficient?
The biggest single problem with online sales is that customers can't see the goods before they buy them. This opens the door to deceptive marketing, which is only slightly offset by online customer reviews (many of which are false). The massive advantage of having bricks and mortar camera shops was that we could get advice from the sales staff, but that advantage assumes that the sales staff actually understand the products they sell, and also assumes that they are making equal profit on all products, and would give impartial advice.

We don't need camera shops to know whether or not an item has the right spec for us, but there are other factors too. For example, I think that the Canon R6 will do everything I need it to, but I need a camera shop (or a friend who has one) to discover that it's too small and fiddly for my big hands - so if I bought one online I would send it back, which is far from efficient, reduces profit for the seller and so increases prices.

And this applies to most things. Car sales have moved online. We don't need second-hand car dealers because we can buy from Cazoo, but most of us actually want to see a car "in the flesh" and test drive it. I would never buy a car online, and the people who invested in Cazoo when they launched have now learned, the hard way, that I'm not alone - the share price has crashed, a £100,000 investment is now worth £20 . . .

In theory, online sales offer more choice, you can get anything on Amazon - in theory - but in practice the process of selling on there is so complex and so expensive that sellers can only list a very limited number of items, severely restricting choice, and limiting those choices to the items with the highest profit margins, mainly because the only people who make any profit from Amazon sales is Amazon, their charges are exorbitant and constantly increasing. This doesn't only reduce choice, it also reduces customer service, because retailers need reasonable profit margins to look after their customers.

It's the same with Uber. Booking a taxi online has taken over from local mini cab firms, which are going bust daily. Uber prices are going up because of the reduced competition, but they don't share their profits with their drivers, whose % is going down, just like Amazon sellers. I have a friend who drives for Uber, he told me just last week that if he works 12 hours a day he can earn £7 per hour:(

Look closer to home. Yongnuo completely disrupted the flashgun market by producing much cheaper flashgun than the camera brand ones, but that market is now completely dead because they ran out of customers. Godox, again selling online only, and selling to some very dodgy traders, disrupted the lighting market. They now have a monopoly, and so choices are fewer and prices keep going up.
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Lots of words, but can't see much I can relate to, or truly support.

Saw this the other day:-

Convenience and Accessibility:

One of the foremost advantages of online shopping is the unparalleled convenience it offers to consumers. Unlike high street shopping, which requires physical presence and adherence to specific store hours, online shopping allows customers to browse, compare, and make purchases from the comfort of their homes at any time of the day. This accessibility is especially beneficial for individuals with busy schedules, mobility limitations, or those residing in remote areas with limited access to physical stores.

Variety and Selection:

Online shopping platforms boast an extensive array of products, often dwarfing the selection available in brick-and-mortar stores. E-commerce websites offer a vast range of brands, styles, and variations, providing consumers with unparalleled choices. This vast selection ensures that shoppers can find precisely what they are looking for and often stumble upon unique or niche products that may not be available in their local high street stores.

Price Comparisons and Discounts:

The transparency of pricing in online shopping empowers consumers to compare prices effortlessly. Various price-comparison tools and platforms enable shoppers to find the best deals, ensuring they get value for their money. Additionally, online retailers frequently offer exclusive discounts, promotions, and loyalty programs, providing an extra incentive for consumers to opt for online purchases.

Efficient Research and Reviews:

Online shopping facilitates informed decision-making through easy access to product reviews, ratings, and detailed descriptions. Shoppers can conduct thorough research on products, read customer feedback, and make informed choices without the pressure of in-store sales tactics. This level of transparency contributes to customer satisfaction and confidence in the products they choose to purchase.

Time and Energy Savings:

The time saved through online shopping is a significant advantage over high street shopping. With just a few clicks, shoppers can complete their purchases, eliminating the need for time-consuming commutes, parking searches, and navigating crowded stores. This efficiency allows consumers to redirect their time and energy to other aspects of their lives.

Conclusion:

While high street shopping holds a place in the retail landscape, the numerous advantages offered by online shopping make it an increasingly popular and preferable option for many consumers. The convenience, accessibility, extensive variety, competitive pricing, and efficiency of online shopping collectively create an experience that aligns with the demands and expectations of the modern consumer. As technology continues to advance, it is likely that online shopping will continue to redefine the way we approach retail, offering an ever-improving and customer-centric alternative to traditional high street shopping
 
Garry Edwards said:
I agree, evading tax is immoral as well as illegal. But it's difficult to take a moral stance on this when we have a government that actively supports massive frauds, gives grossly overpriced contracts to its mates and screws both legitimate businesses and the public. That isn't a political statement, all political parties seem to have the same approach.

But is online retail more efficient?
The biggest single problem with online sales is that customers can't see the goods before they buy them. This opens the door to deceptive marketing, which is only slightly offset by online customer reviews (many of which are false). The massive advantage of having bricks and mortar camera shops was that we could get advice from the sales staff, but that advantage assumes that the sales staff actually understand the products they sell, and also assumes that they are making equal profit on all products, and would give impartial advice.

We don't need camera shops to know whether or not an item has the right spec for us, but there are other factors too. For example, I think that the Canon R6 will do everything I need it to, but I need a camera shop (or a friend who has one) to discover that it's too small and fiddly for my big hands - so if I bought one online I would send it back, which is far from efficient, reduces profit for the seller and so increases prices.

And this applies to most things. Car sales have moved online. We don't need second-hand car dealers because we can buy from Cazoo, but most of us actually want to see a car "in the flesh" and test drive it. I would never buy a car online, and the people who invested in Cazoo when they launched have now learned, the hard way, that I'm not alone - the share price has crashed, a £100,000 investment is now worth £20 . . .

In theory, online sales offer more choice, you can get anything on Amazon - in theory - but in practice the process of selling on there is so complex and so expensive that sellers can only list a very limited number of items, severely restricting choice, and limiting those choices to the items with the highest profit margins, mainly because the only people who make any profit from Amazon sales is Amazon, their charges are exorbitant and constantly increasing. This doesn't only reduce choice, it also reduces customer service, because retailers need reasonable profit margins to look after their customers.

It's the same with Uber. Booking a taxi online has taken over from local mini cab firms, which are going bust daily. Uber prices are going up because of the reduced competition, but they don't share their profits with their drivers, whose % is going down, just like Amazon sellers. I have a friend who drives for Uber, he told me just last week that if he works 12 hours a day he can earn £7 per hour:(

Look closer to home. Yongnuo completely disrupted the flashgun market by producing much cheaper flashgun than the camera brand ones, but that market is now completely dead because they ran out of customers. Godox, again selling online only, and selling to some very dodgy traders, disrupted the lighting market. They now have a monopoly, and so choices are fewer and prices keep going up.
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Which was countered by this:-


Tangible Experience and Instant Gratification:

High street shopping provides a tangible and multisensory experience that online shopping cannot replicate. The ability to touch, feel, and try products before purchasing offers consumers a level of certainty and satisfaction that digital images and descriptions struggle to convey. Immediate access to products allows shoppers to experience instant gratification, eliminating the waiting period associated with online deliveries.

Community Engagement and Social Interaction:

Local high street shopping fosters a sense of community that is absent from the isolated realm of online transactions. Physical stores create hubs for social interaction, enabling shoppers to engage with neighbors, store staff, and fellow consumers. This community-centric approach contributes to a vibrant and lively atmosphere, enhancing the overall shopping experience.

Personalized Assistance and Expertise:

In-store shopping provides an opportunity for personalized assistance and expert advice from knowledgeable staff. Sales associates can offer guidance, recommend products based on individual preferences, and address customer queries in real-time. This level of personalized service ensures that shoppers feel valued and supported throughout their purchasing journey.

Supporting Local Businesses:

High street shopping plays a pivotal role in supporting local businesses and contributing to the vitality of the community. By choosing to shop locally, consumers help sustain small businesses, which, in turn, fosters economic growth, job creation, and a diverse retail landscape. This community-driven approach contrasts with the often faceless and global nature of online retail giants.

Try Before You Buy:

The ability to try products before making a purchase is a distinct advantage of high street shopping. Whether it's testing the fit of clothing, sampling fragrances, or experiencing the texture of a product, in-store shopping allows customers to make more informed decisions. This tactile engagement significantly reduces the likelihood of dissatisfaction upon receiving an online order.

Immediate Problem Resolution:

High street shopping offers immediate solutions to any issues that may arise during the shopping experience. Whether it's a sizing concern, a defective product, or a simple question, customers can address their concerns directly with store staff, avoiding the delays and complexities often associated with online customer service.

Conclusion:

While online shopping has carved out its niche in the retail landscape, high street shopping remains the superior choice for those seeking a holistic and enriching consumer experience. The tangible engagement, sense of community, personalized service, and immediate gratification offered by in-store shopping contribute to a more fulfilling and rewarding retail experience. As consumers increasingly recognize the value of these aspects, high street shopping stands resilient, maintaining its relevance in the ever-evolving world of retail.
 
Agree with most of the above, I wanted a pair of headphones to use with my iPad , so we went to Curry’s to have a look and try them for size
unfortunately apart from a couple of expensive ones all they actually had were cards on the shelves with a photo of the item that you were supposed to take to the till to buy it
gave up and my other half ordered me a pair from amazon
will admit though that all of my recent camera gear purchases have been grey imports , our local Jessops went a long time ago and there is nothing else , I did used to buy my gear from them
 
As I think it was Phil said back in the day there were lots of photographic dealers. I think four camera shops in my town, now theres one and he's struggling. I try to take my trade to the local shops and have never bought grey.
Jessops did for a lot of the shops, the small traders couldnt compete, much the same was as Tesco/Asda ect have driven out small food retailers, not to mention garages/petrol stations.
Sadly Jessop went grim later on and were just selling the customers who went for help and advice anything they could, not what the customer wanted or needed, unlike their early days.
Covid did the rest for a lot of shops, people realised they could get stuff online cheaper, and nearly as quickly. No driving into town, hunting parking spaces, walking about in the rain. Three clicks from their armchair and it arrived next day, 10% cheaper with no petrol or car park charges either.
Sadly the world we live in now has changed forever. It'll never go back, even the shops we have only have two staff if your lucky (and we used to laugh at the Russians queung) Town centers are dying, online competition, business rates going up like NASA,
Heaven help the last few camera shops.....
 
You also have to ask the question of why identical products can be found at much cheaper retail prices in some markets. It isn't just tax. More like what the market will accept.
 
Clive K said:
You also have to ask the question of why identical products can be found at much cheaper retail prices in some markets. It isn't just tax. More like what the market will accept.
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Exactly this. The argument is often "it's because of tax and VAT" but a £1500 saving on the latest camera is not VAT.
The UK is often screwed on prices and it's not uncommon to see us paying more than the US even though the £ is stronger and even factoring their sales tax we are being done over.

As an example, I have been waiting for a product from Unifi to become available on the UK store. It's been saying "Coming Soon" for months and I really needed to get a phone working. Eventually I looked to the US and found it from a supplier in New York. Even with a $40 shipping charge (which was around 35% of the cost of the item) it only cost me £5 more than it would have had I bought it here. It was also delivered in just two days
 
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magicaxeman said:
That in buying grey imports they are putting British retailers out of business
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I have never heard of a business folding because of grey imports..
 
KIPAX said:
I have never heard of a business folding because of grey imports..
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I suspect it's something that could be a contributory cause, rather than the full reason.
If a business is already marginal (due to generally declining sales, high costs, etc), then loosing some sales each month to cheaper grey market sellers might tip the balance between profit and loss.
 
Sangoma said:
Which was countered by this:-


Tangible Experience and Instant Gratification:

High street shopping provides a tangible and multisensory experience that online shopping cannot replicate. The ability to touch, feel, and try products before purchasing offers consumers a level of certainty and satisfaction that digital images and descriptions struggle to convey. Immediate access to products allows shoppers to experience instant gratification, eliminating the waiting period associated with online deliveries.

Community Engagement and Social Interaction:

Local high street shopping fosters a sense of community that is absent from the isolated realm of online transactions. Physical stores create hubs for social interaction, enabling shoppers to engage with neighbors, store staff, and fellow consumers. This community-centric approach contributes to a vibrant and lively atmosphere, enhancing the overall shopping experience.

Personalized Assistance and Expertise:

In-store shopping provides an opportunity for personalized assistance and expert advice from knowledgeable staff. Sales associates can offer guidance, recommend products based on individual preferences, and address customer queries in real-time. This level of personalized service ensures that shoppers feel valued and supported throughout their purchasing journey.

Supporting Local Businesses:

High street shopping plays a pivotal role in supporting local businesses and contributing to the vitality of the community. By choosing to shop locally, consumers help sustain small businesses, which, in turn, fosters economic growth, job creation, and a diverse retail landscape. This community-driven approach contrasts with the often faceless and global nature of online retail giants.

Try Before You Buy:

The ability to try products before making a purchase is a distinct advantage of high street shopping. Whether it's testing the fit of clothing, sampling fragrances, or experiencing the texture of a product, in-store shopping allows customers to make more informed decisions. This tactile engagement significantly reduces the likelihood of dissatisfaction upon receiving an online order.

Immediate Problem Resolution:

High street shopping offers immediate solutions to any issues that may arise during the shopping experience. Whether it's a sizing concern, a defective product, or a simple question, customers can address their concerns directly with store staff, avoiding the delays and complexities often associated with online customer service.

Conclusion:

While online shopping has carved out its niche in the retail landscape, high street shopping remains the superior choice for those seeking a holistic and enriching consumer experience. The tangible engagement, sense of community, personalized service, and immediate gratification offered by in-store shopping contribute to a more fulfilling and rewarding retail experience. As consumers increasingly recognize the value of these aspects, high street shopping stands resilient, maintaining its relevance in the ever-evolving world of retail.
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Stating that online is a complete replacement for bricks and mortar sellers is a bit like saying that your very generalised AI-generated text is a complete replacement for actually writing a reply . . .
 
Garry Edwards said:
True, and we need that consumer protection, but it does add a lot to the cost. It is also greatly abused by the public, who know that Amazon and eBay will always support even fraudulent claims.

They do it very well in China. Take photography as an example (although it applies to all specialist retail products)
Every large city will have one "Photography hub". Ground floor will probably be Canon, Nikon and similar cameras and lenses.
Floor 1 will be medium format
Floor 2 will be large format
Floor 3 will be darkroom
Apart from the ground floor, lots of tiny shops, offering (between them) everything that's available. Go from shop to shop and bargain, it's a win-win situation. We've never had anything close to that in this country.
Click to expand...
The beauty of somewhere like China is that they started from the ground up in an already mature market. So they could learn from our mistakes. I think there’s a chance this approach could be developed in our largest cities. The other advantage of China being they have a ‘lot’ of very large cities.

That model is used successfully now in lots of towns and cities for entertainment spaces. Loads of small vendors sharing a communal space selling food and drink.
 
I tried to support a 'bricks & mortar' UK business this week, they were advertising a number of used models of the exact camera I wanted on their website.
The first was at their London branch so I rang them to buy it ... it was on hold for someone who was coming in sometime this week to have a look at it, but still showing 'for sale' on the website.
The next was in Bristol so I popped along to the store to check it out ... in fact there were two in store, I was told ... however they were both reserved for someone who was coming in "in the next few days to look at them and choose which one he wanted" ... the one I wanted is still showing 'for sale' on the website.
Shop sales in the UK are pathetic, whether photographic, clothes or fruit & veg ... retail doesn't want to save itself!
 
Garry Edwards said:
Stating that online is a complete replacement for bricks and mortar sellers is a bit like saying that your very generalised AI-generated text is a complete replacement for actually writing a reply . . .
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With photography gear it’s not so much that online ‘can’ replace bricks and mortar, or whether it should, but that it effectively has for most towns / cities. If I want to go to a proper camera shop I have to go to Leeds, Sheffield or York (I appreciate York is farther but it’s quick to get to).
 
lindsay said:
This is completely ignoring the elephants in the room of bricks-and-mortar retail: rent and business rates.
I looked into starting a bookshop locally. Leave aside the actual lack of demand from a "does it have pictures" population, the monthly cost of a modest shop in a fairly central location was going to be £1500 rent and nearly £1000 rates. Adding utilities and insurance, that is a hell of a lot of overheads to cover before actually being able to pay wages. In the case of a camera shop, I guess you'd need to sell at least half a dozen £2k cameras or lenses each month, plus rely on the little stuff to actually make a living. Is that remotely realistic even if there weren't grey imports etc? I think not, personally.
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These two large charges come because
a) in the UK we see property as something to make money out of, rather than somewhere to do things.
b) a smoke and mirrors government approach to taxation, where they shout about the tax cuts they make, but make other bodies pay the difference.
 
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One of the biggest threats to UK customer retailers are the camera manufacturers themselves. The margins on new gear (Cameras/Lenses) are slim, very slim, many of you would be shocked by what they are (and indeed one very major camera manufacturer forces the retailer to buy at list, and then re-imburses a margin based on volume sold in quarterly or annual time intervals) - and the all the manufacturers now offer you the ability to buy direct from them, cutting out the dealer. The latter undermines the 'dealer' network and indeed Fuji undermine the second user network, buy selling refurbished products at very competitive prices, effecting dictating the prices achievable in the second user market (by setting ceiling prices), this has a knock on effect on trade-in prices.

The so called price fixing mentioned previously, the retailers have no choice but to sell at RRP (or very very close), once you take into account the super slim margins, and the costs of card transactions (many are bought on credit cards) or other finance options, there really is very little left to play with. Wonder why so few retailers offer a HP type scheme, that because there is so little margin to play with, only the bigger retailers can afford it. Then bigger retailers are also offered different incentives to the smaller retailers meaning that the single shop or very small chain is placed at a further disadvantage.

Grey Imports are irrating IMO, but they are an HMRC problem and certainly not the cause of the demise of camera shops on their own merit, but may contribute.
 
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I think it's a simple case of looking closer to home...

The government allowed energy costs to double. Water has gone up. Car insurance 50% increase. Shopping the same.... Everything has gone up, by a significant amount..... *

Apart from wages obviously .... So if people can and want to save themselves a few quid on leisure items, that's what they do. Hence people buy grey.

*Guesstimate %'s there.
 
A lot of the camera retailers will happily sell you a secondhand camera that they know is grey at higher prices than you can import it yourself for. I was told recently by a dealer that “we can’t compete with grey import prices” on a used Nikon, when I pointed out that he was trying to sell me an import for £400 more than a new one he became rather sheepish. Then claimed he didn’t know so I said how come I can tell by the serial number and you can’t ? Shrugs shoulders lol Makes me wonder if some of them actually buy grey themselves and sell them on.
 
LCPete said:
, so we went to Curry’s to have a look and try them for size
my other half ordered me a pair from amazon
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I had the opposite, went to buy some WD HDDs off Amazon, waited and waited nothing came, then checked Curry's in Isleworth they had them in stock - exactly the same price.....
 
Faldrax said:
I suspect it's something that could be a contributory cause, rather than the full reason.
If a business is already marginal (due to generally declining sales, high costs, etc), then loosing some sales each month to cheaper grey market sellers might tip the balance between profit and loss.
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To add to this, some people will go into a bricks'n'mortar shop with no intention of buying, just to handle what they intend to buy online (either legit or grey). The smaller shops don't get freebies so have to take the kit from stock so it can't be sold as brand new (by the honest ones, anyway!) Given that margins on the bigger pieces of kit are very low, it doesn't take many non sales to kill a business.
 
Can we move to the lounge, I can see no photography being discussed, instead shops, grey imports etc
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
Retail trading has been going through a COMPLETE transition.
Most "STUFF" can be bought on line at a cheaper price and with next day delivery.
HAIRCUTS can not be bought on line.
Highstreet outlets need to have a high degree of personal service and hands on elements to be able to thrive.

This is no longer the case for hardware like cameras.
However there is a small but regular demand for specialist outlets when people can handle and compare items.
These have to be conveniently located where they have easy access to large population centers and be able to serve specialist needs of both professionals and amateurs. They need to be able to do this in large enough volume, to compete on price with online traders, or they will become no more than demonstrators to people who do not purchase.
There is probably only sufficient demand to keep 4 or5 such outlets going on a long term basis in the UK.
Unfortunately many areas will be poorly served as our transport infrastructure is both costly and inconvenient.

I can see a time when town and city centres will be entirely devoid of specialist retailers. In their place will be several large out of town clusters of distributers serving perhaps entire geographic regions. These centres will be linked to online distribution and direct logistic centres. Each cluster would support specialist hands on viewing and training where necessary.
Most other retail sales and advice would be served by online AI.
Town centers would be made up of entertainment, hospitality, personal services, and time sensitive convenience outlets. And may be outlets catering to tourist needs.
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I genuinely believe that most town centres will revert to their pre Industrial Revolution use, with retail and office space being replaced with housing.

There are already small towns all over the country who have an upsurge in use, and they have done this by filling the space with high end retail.

A small number of people will pay a premium for ‘service’ and quality goods - and shops will fulfil that brief. For most of the time, most of us will buy low quality convenient products.
 
lindsay said:
This is completely ignoring the elephants in the room of bricks-and-mortar retail: rent and business rates.
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Town centres and even the out of town retail parks seem to be dying and I can't see a couple of camera shops changing that. I don't know where the nearest camera shop is to me, Leeds? Newcastle? So other than Currys it's the internet for me as Leeds and Newcastle are just too far.

Terrywoodenpic said:
Highstreet outlets need to have a high degree of personal service and hands on elements to be able to thrive.
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So many outlets seem to be staffed by people going through the motions or lacking basic knowledge. When I meet genuinely helpful and knowledgeable staff it seems to be the exception rather than the norm.

I have bought grey but in my defence as far as I remember it's only been kit which was difficult to find in the UK. I do agree that buying in the UK is best as the taxes fund the NHS and everything thing else but I can not criticise those who do buy grey as not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to easily pay the additional cost from a UK supplier for kit which is in reality not a necessary purchase for most of us.
 
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woof woof said:
Town centres and even the out of town retail parks seem to be dying and I can't see a couple of camera shops changing that. I don't know where the nearest camera shop is to me, Leeds? Newcastle? So other than Currys it's the internet for me as Leeds and Newcastle are just too far.



So many outlets seem to be staffed by people going through the motions or lacking basic knowledge. When I meet genuinely helpful and knowledgeable staff it seems to be the exception rather than the norm.

I have bought grey but in my defence as far as I remember it's only been kit which was difficult to find in the UK. I do agree that buying in the UK is best as the taxes fund the NHS and everything thing else but I can not criticise those who do buy grey as not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to easily pay the additional cost from a UK supplier for kit which is in reality not a necessary purchase for most of us.
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Interestingly here in the south of Hampshire we have 2 LCE's in Southampton (One mainly Canon / Nikon, the other mainly Sony), and another in Winchester - and certainly whenever I've visited the Sony centric one in Southampton the staff have seemed knowledgeable and helpful.
We used to have 2 Jessops, and 2 or 3 independents as well - both the Jessops have gone, I'm not sure about the independents (LCE always had much better Sony stock, so that's where I go).
 
Sangoma said:
Which was countered by this:-


Tangible Experience and Instant Gratification:

High street shopping provides a tangible and multisensory experience that online shopping cannot replicate. The ability to touch, feel, and try products before purchasing offers consumers a level of certainty and satisfaction that digital images and descriptions struggle to convey. Immediate access to products allows shoppers to experience instant gratification, eliminating the waiting period associated with online deliveries.

Community Engagement and Social Interaction:

Local high street shopping fosters a sense of community that is absent from the isolated realm of online transactions. Physical stores create hubs for social interaction, enabling shoppers to engage with neighbors, store staff, and fellow consumers. This community-centric approach contributes to a vibrant and lively atmosphere, enhancing the overall shopping experience.

Personalized Assistance and Expertise:

In-store shopping provides an opportunity for personalized assistance and expert advice from knowledgeable staff. Sales associates can offer guidance, recommend products based on individual preferences, and address customer queries in real-time. This level of personalized service ensures that shoppers feel valued and supported throughout their purchasing journey.

Supporting Local Businesses:

High street shopping plays a pivotal role in supporting local businesses and contributing to the vitality of the community. By choosing to shop locally, consumers help sustain small businesses, which, in turn, fosters economic growth, job creation, and a diverse retail landscape. This community-driven approach contrasts with the often faceless and global nature of online retail giants.

Try Before You Buy:

The ability to try products before making a purchase is a distinct advantage of high street shopping. Whether it's testing the fit of clothing, sampling fragrances, or experiencing the texture of a product, in-store shopping allows customers to make more informed decisions. This tactile engagement significantly reduces the likelihood of dissatisfaction upon receiving an online order.

Immediate Problem Resolution:

High street shopping offers immediate solutions to any issues that may arise during the shopping experience. Whether it's a sizing concern, a defective product, or a simple question, customers can address their concerns directly with store staff, avoiding the delays and complexities often associated with online customer service.

Conclusion:

While online shopping has carved out its niche in the retail landscape, high street shopping remains the superior choice for those seeking a holistic and enriching consumer experience. The tangible engagement, sense of community, personalized service, and immediate gratification offered by in-store shopping contribute to a more fulfilling and rewarding retail experience. As consumers increasingly recognize the value of these aspects, high street shopping stands resilient, maintaining its relevance in the ever-evolving world of retail.
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The real world experience suggests that any advantages that shops might have, has long since been overtaken by the advantages of online sales.
There is no possibility that this situation will be reversed.
That horse has already left the stable.

However online sales procedures must improve both for the seller and the purchaser. To reduce waste and improve profitability.
woof woof said:
Town centres and even the out of town retail parks seem to be dying and I can't see a couple of camera shops changing that. I don't know where the nearest camera shop is to me, Leeds? Newcastle? So other than Currys it's the internet for me as Leeds and Newcastle are just too far.



So many outlets seem to be staffed by people going through the motions or lacking basic knowledge. When I meet genuinely helpful and knowledgeable staff it seems to be the exception rather than the norm.

I have bought grey but in my defence as far as I remember it's only been kit which was difficult to find in the UK. I do agree that buying in the UK is best as the taxes fund the NHS and everything thing else but I can not criticise those who do buy grey as not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to easily pay the additional cost from a UK supplier for kit which is in reality not a necessary purchase for most of us.
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All sellers of grey or makers authorised sellers, should be paying full applicable UK taxes

Grey imports are any sales not from this countries authorised importers, but instead are obtained legitimately via other countries as direct imports. They do not usually benefit from the authorised importers guarantee, but might do so from a manufacturers international warranty. They usually carry warranties from the grey importer as a form of insurance.

Larger grey importers, often supply internationally to a number of different countries with goods obtained either directly from the manufacturer, or from suppliers that are located in low cost regions such as freeports, such as Hong Kong.

Grey importing is a long established and legitimate and well regulated form of trade.
 
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