When are people going to realise

[jerry12953]

Retail prices are fixed usually by the manufacturer even though price fixing is illegal in the UK . I see the OP has failed to mention this in the first post, I wonder why?. The answer is to allow retailers to sell at a price the market is willing to spend and then good bye to grey imports.

Sorry but if I want the same product at a cheaper price and save a bit of money then I will and have done. My betting is that most on here have bargained down the price on something or other at one stage, even here on this site in items for sale

That is exactly the point I was going to make and I have made it on here before. Look at the prices on Camera Price Whatsit for typical purchases and you will see that the big retailers hardly compete at all. It should be illegal but somehow they and the distributors get away with it.

 

[SFTPhotography]

It pays to go grey

 

[Ed Sutton]

That is exactly the point I was going to make and I have made it on here before. Look at the prices on Camera Price Whatsit for typical purchases and you will see that the big retailers hardly compete at all. It should be illegal but somehow they and the distributors get away with it.

The other way of looking at things is that comparison sites, and the internet as a whole, makes it easy for retailers to see what other retailers are selling the same items for. As their potential customers can make these comparisons just as easily they'd be fools to charge much more (or a great deal less) than their competitors. Maybe it's just the way that business works these days that's keeping prices similar across the board?

 

[Garry Edwards]

The other way of looking at things is that comparison sites, and the internet as a whole, makes it easy for retailers to see what other retailers are selling the same items for. As their potential customers can make these comparisons just as easily they'd be fools to charge much more (or a great deal less) than their competitors. Maybe it's just the way that business works these days that's keeping prices similar across the board?

That's an interesting take on pricing . . .
Comparison sites INCREASE prices dramatically, by charging a commission that can be as high as 30%, which of course is passed on to buyers. They bring benefits only to the people who run them.

The internet (generally) does of course help everyone to find the lowest prices, but comparison sites have a negative effect.

 

[Sangoma]

That's an interesting take on pricing . . .
Comparison sites INCREASE prices dramatically, by charging a commission that can be as high as 30%, which of course is passed on to buyers. They bring benefits only to the people who run them.

The internet (generally) does of course help everyone to find the lowest prices, but comparison sites have a negative effect.

Never seen that, they often get paid a small amount for click-throughs, but the prices I see on comparison sites are the same as the sites they link to.

I never click on the links on the comparison site, just put the name into duckduckgo and find the product that way, and have never found the price to be different to what the comparison site quoted.

 

[jerry12953]

The other way of looking at things is that comparison sites, and the internet as a whole, makes it easy for retailers to see what other retailers are selling the same items for. As their potential customers can make these comparisons just as easily they'd be fools to charge much more (or a great deal less) than their competitors. Maybe it's just the way that business works these days that's keeping prices similar across the board?

Using similar logic, a comparison site makes it easy for retailers to see what others are charging and then beat it. But it doesn't happen. I wonder why?

 

[Ed Sutton]

Using similar logic, a comparison site makes it easy for retailers to see what others are charging and then beat it. But it doesn't happen. I wonder why?

I don't know what the margins are in the camera trade. Maybe there's no more room to drop the prices from the lowest?

Whatever the case business exist to make a profit at such a level as enables them to keep trading.

How many times on here have we read of photographers complaining about their competitors being too cheap? One the one hand photographers want paying a decent price and moan about being undercut, On the other they want their gear as cheap as possible.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Never seen that, they often get paid a small amount for click-throughs, but the prices I see on comparison sites are the same as the sites they link to.

I never click on the links on the comparison site, just put the name into duckduckgo and find the product that way, and have never found the price to be different to what the comparison site quoted.

Using similar logic, a comparison site makes it easy for retailers to see what others are charging and then beat it. But it doesn't happen. I wonder why?

Because the comparison sites don't allow their users to advertise prices that are lower than the prices on the comparison sites. Amazon does the same.
This is arguably unlawful, but it's what it is.

 

[Ed Sutton]

That's an interesting take on pricing . . .
Comparison sites INCREASE prices dramatically, by charging a commission that can be as high as 30%, which of course is passed on to buyers. They bring benefits only to the people who run them.

That's interesting, I wasn't aware of that. So that sort of comparison site is effectively a way for retailers to advertise?

 

[Garry Edwards]

That's interesting, I wasn't aware of that. So that sort of comparison site is effectively a way for retailers to advertise?

Yes - did you think that they exist for our benefit?
It can be argued of course that if the dealers didn't advertise on them then they would advertise somewhere else, but the fact remains that advertising on these sites is extremely expensive, and inevitably pushes prices up a lot.

it also automates and therefore de-skills the selling process, which means that anyone can sell anything without any specialised skills and knowledge.
Buying insurance? Just give the site all your personal data, and the prices will come back instantly, no need to speak to anyone who actually understands the insurance business and who knows who to ring up to get the insurance cover that's right for you.

Buying a camera? Just go for the cheapest online price. You may be able to find a traditional camera shop, staffed by experienced people who are photographers themselves, but they are an anachronism, struggling to compete and doomed to fail, when rents and rates increase, minimum pay increases again and the local shoplifters have a good day . . .

These were once real, viable businesses, but the internet in general and grey sellers in particular have turned them into lifestyle businesses, when the existing, knowledgeable staff retire they won't be able to replace them, the only reason that most lifestyle businesses still exist is that they owners don't know what else they can do, and the business has become little more than a kind of a paid hobby. Other typical examples are model shops, remote country pubs that don't have any customers who can walk there. We have a small farm, the nearest pub is 4 1/2 miles away and there is no public transport, I'm guessing that the pub would close pretty quickly if there were enough police to stop their customers when they were driving home . . .

 

[taxboy]

Yes - did you think that they exist for our benefit?
It can be argued of course that if the dealers didn't advertise on them then they would advertise somewhere else, but the fact remains that advertising on these sites is extremely expensive, and inevitably pushes prices up a lot.

it also automates and therefore de-skills the selling process, which means that anyone can sell anything without any specialised skills and knowledge.
Buying insurance? Just give the site all your personal data, and the prices will come back instantly, no need to speak to anyone who actually understands the insurance business and who knows who to ring up to get the insurance cover that's right for you.

Buying a camera? Just go for the cheapest online price. You may be able to find a traditional camera shop, staffed by experienced people who are photographers themselves, but they are an anachronism, struggling to compete and doomed to fail, when rents and rates increase, minimum pay increases again and the local shoplifters have a good day . . .

These were once real, viable businesses, but the internet in general and grey sellers in particular have turned them into lifestyle businesses, when the existing, knowledgeable staff retire they won't be able to replace them, the only reason that most lifestyle businesses still exist is that they owners don't know what else they can do, and the business has become little more than a kind of a paid hobby. Other typical examples are model shops, remote country pubs that don't have any customers who can walk there. We have a small farm, the nearest pub is 4 1/2 miles away and there is no public transport, I'm guessing that the pub would close pretty quickly if there were enough police to stop their customers when they were driving home . . .

Slightly O/T but with regard to pubs - the model has changed. There are very few wet only pubs these days - perhaps a few in larger population centres. The majority of country pubs now do food as it's more profitable than drink and people are prepared to drive if the food is decent. However for camera high street retailers, they're pretty much boxed in and with rent / rates etc there aren't many options on changing the business model. My local WEX in Norwich probably comes closest to a camera retailer in the internet age - large showroom coupled with warehouse facilities to deal with the mail order

 

[Ed Sutton]

Yes - did you think that they exist for our benefit?

I'd never considered the business model behind them, or how they operate.

Buying a camera? Just go for the cheapest online price. You may be able to find a traditional camera shop, staffed by experienced people who are photographers themselves, but they are an anachronism, struggling to compete and doomed to fail, when rents and rates increase, minimum pay increases again and the local shoplifters have a good day . . .

These were once real, viable businesses, but the internet in general and grey sellers in particular have turned them into lifestyle businesses, when the existing, knowledgeable staff retire they won't be able to replace them, the only reason that most lifestyle businesses still exist is that they owners don't know what else they can do, and the business has become little more than a kind of a paid hobby. Other typical examples are model shops, remote country pubs that don't have any customers who can walk there. We have a small farm, the nearest pub is 4 1/2 miles away and there is no public transport, I'm guessing that the pub would close pretty quickly if there were enough police to stop their customers when they were driving home . . .

Wilkinson's is still my local camera shop (two close to me) but the knowledge level of the staff in one of them has dropped over the last ten years and it's usually empty whenever I pass or pop in to look at the used gear cabinet. A case of a good manager who kept customers happy being replaced by a 'twelve-year-old' IMO.

I've been in the fishing tackle trade since the late '80s and independent tackle shops are getting rarer. The viable ones that come available when the proprietor wants to retire get bought up by one of the multiples. They then become soulless outlets for the same generic stuff you can buy in their other shops. So you might as well order on-line. There are still some plodding along, and even thriving. But the retail landscape has changed a lot.

 

[Craikeybaby]

Slightly O/T but with regard to pubs - the model has changed. There are very few wet only pubs these days - perhaps a few in larger population centres. The majority of country pubs now do food as it's more profitable than drink and people are prepared to drive if the food is decent. However for camera high street retailers, they're pretty much boxed in and with rent / rates etc there aren't many options on changing the business model. My local WEX in Norwich probably comes closest to a camera retailer in the internet age - large showroom coupled with warehouse facilities to deal with the mail order

WEX seem to have been one of the winners, but I also like the LCE model of distributing their online presence across all of their branches, e.g. Leamington Spa is the Manfrotto "specialist", so any Manfrotto purchases come from there, and Chester for Fuji etc.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

WEX seem to have been one of the winners, but I also like the LCE model of distributing their online presence across all of their branches, e.g. Leamington Spa is the Manfrotto "specialist", so any Manfrotto purchases come from there, and Chester for Fuji etc.

That explains the huge Fujifilm stock in the cabinets in Chester then........

 

[imattersuk]

I'd never considered the business model behind them, or how they operate.


Wilkinson's is still my local camera shop (two close to me) but the knowledge level of the staff in one of them has dropped over the last ten years and it's usually empty whenever I pass or pop in to look at the used gear cabinet. A case of a good manager who kept customers happy being replaced by a 'twelve-year-old' IMO.

I've been in the fishing tackle trade since the late '80s and independent tackle shops are getting rarer. The viable ones that come available when the proprietor wants to retire get bought up by one of the multiples. They then become soulless outlets for the same generic stuff you can buy in their other shops. So you might as well order on-line. There are still some plodding along, and even thriving. But the retail landscape has changed a lot.

This is why LCE on the whole provides such good customer service, if you look at the "team" in each shop many have been there for decades.

 

[Bristolian]

Because they will say that because they did not supply it through officially approved channels, they have no way of knowing if it has been altered in any way not under their control, thereby possibly making it unreliable and not up to standard. TBH, that would be my worry too -- where has this camera been, who's been messing with it and what expensive parts might they have removed and replaced with cheap crap thereby enabling them to sell the good bits on? Grey import devices might be cheaper but do you really know the whole reason why? I'll buy mine through official channels thanks.

What? Do you have any actual evidence of this kind of thing being done? Who is going to manufacture parts that will a) physically fit into the camera and b) function even partly just so they can sell a few parts? Get real!

Nikon's refusal to honour the warranty is just their way of controlling what equipment gets sold where and for how much. Nothing more ... nothing less.

 

[ShinySideUp]

What? Do you have any actual evidence of this kind of thing being done? Who is going to manufacture parts that will a) physically fit into the camera and b) function even partly just so they can sell a few parts? Get real!

Nikon's refusal to honour the warranty is just their way of controlling what equipment gets sold where and for how much. Nothing more ... nothing less.

I have no evidence at all, absolutely none, zilch. I am just giving one possible reason, in answer to a previous question, as to why camera manufacturers will not offer warranties on grey imports. I am also an incredibly distrusting person who believes that if something illegal is at all possible, then some nefarious person or persons will use it to try to screw the rest of us for their personal gain.

As far as 'get real' is concerned, people do actually do that sort of thing; Amazon is plagued by people being sent goods that are not genuine because someone, somewhere has substituted fake goods and then sold them on as OEM. People have died in vehicles that have been fitted with sub-standard, fake brake discs. Ever heard of 'cut and shut' when it comes to second hand cars? People will steal stuff, any stuff, if they think they can make money from it.

 

[ecoleman]

I have no evidence at all, absolutely none, zilch. I am just giving one possible reason, in answer to a previous question, as to why camera manufacturers will not offer warranties on grey imports. I am also an incredibly distrusting person who believes that if something illegal is at all possible, then some nefarious person or persons will use it to try to screw the rest of us for their personal gain.

As far as 'get real' is concerned, people do actually do that sort of thing; Amazon is plagued by people being sent goods that are not genuine because someone, somewhere has substituted fake goods and then sold them on as OEM. People have died in vehicles that have been fitted with sub-standard, fake brake discs. Ever heard of 'cut and shut' when it comes to second hand cars? People will steal stuff, any stuff, if they think they can make money from it.

There is a big difference between buying something from dodgy dave on Amazon or eBay or that shady car dealer down in the industrial estate and buying a camera from a reputable importer like Panamoz or Hdew. They have a reputation to uphold or their business wouldn't last very long.

You only have to ask anyone who has had dealing with the likes of Panamoz when their cameras have gone wrong to know that they are not in the business of making a quick buck by swapping and selling camera parts. I have bought a number of cameras from Panamoz and probably a dozen lenses over the years from both Panamoz and HDEW and never had an issue with any of them.

Manufacturers don't honour their warranty simply to scare customers away from buying from unofficial channels as I assume it dents their profits. They take us for a ride at every opportunity and the fact is that the warranty provided by a reputable grey importer is much better than those offered by the manufacturer or local retailers.

 

[Craikeybaby]

I have no evidence at all, absolutely none, zilch. I am just giving one possible reason, in answer to a previous question, as to why camera manufacturers will not offer warranties on grey imports. I am also an incredibly distrusting person who believes that if something illegal is at all possible, then some nefarious person or persons will use it to try to screw the rest of us for their personal gain.

As far as 'get real' is concerned, people do actually do that sort of thing; Amazon is plagued by people being sent goods that are not genuine because someone, somewhere has substituted fake goods and then sold them on as OEM. People have died in vehicles that have been fitted with sub-standard, fake brake discs. Ever heard of 'cut and shut' when it comes to second hand cars? People will steal stuff, any stuff, if they think they can make money from it.

From the importers, I expect that it is a case of only supporting the camera that have been imported through them, which they would have taken a cut from. Why should they support products that are nothing to do with them?

 

[LCPete]

There is a big difference between buying something from dodgy dave on Amazon or eBay or that shady car dealer down in the industrial estate and buying a camera from a reputable importer like Panamoz or Hdew. They have a reputation to uphold or their business wouldn't last very long.

You only have to ask anyone who has had dealing with the likes of Panamoz when their cameras have gone wrong to know that they are not in the business of making a quick buck by swapping and selling camera parts. I have bought a number of cameras from Panamoz and probably a dozen lenses over the years from both Panamoz and HDEW and never had an issue with any of them.

Manufacturers don't honour their warranty simply to scare customers away from buying from unofficial channels as I assume it dents their profits. They take us for a ride at every opportunity and the fact is that the warranty provided by a reputable grey importer is much better than those offered by the manufacturer or local retailers.

this exactly completely agree , my camera , Canon R5 had a 3 year warranty that I bought from Panamoz, it needed repairs as it was locking up i had had it more than 2 half years
Panamoz were really decent told me to send my camera to Canon and they would pay for the repair which they did in less than a day
Canon were also excellent and were not bothered that my camera was grey my camera is now sorted
Panamoz and HDEW have an excellent reputation and I have had great service from both of them and would recommend both companies to anyone

 

[the black fox]

That explains the huge Fujifilm stock in the cabinets in Chester then........

Where the hell is Wex in Chester ??

 

[the black fox]

TBH it’s the same when you PX a camera or lens to ,rather than a qualified assistant giving you a price to swing the deal ,these days they tend to go online first and see what MPB are offering , there site has become the glasses guide camera sales / buying

 

[Mr Perceptive]

Where the hell is Wex in Chester ??

I was talking about LCE..........................

 

[f/2.8]

Because they will say that because they did not supply it through officially approved channels, they have no way of knowing if it has been altered in any way not under their control, thereby possibly making it unreliable and not up to standard. TBH, that would be my worry too -- where has this camera been, who's been messing with it and what expensive parts might they have removed and replaced with cheap crap thereby enabling them to sell the good bits on? Grey import devices might be cheaper but do you really know the whole reason why? I'll buy mine through official channels thanks.

Yes actually I do know the reason why.

It is because of tax.

They are able to ship from China without adding any local tax as the items are being exported. They then lie on the shipping labels and pretend that the item is under £135 so that the end user doesn't have to pay tax or import duty.

This is pretty common knowledge.

 

[jamesev]

Yes actually I do know the reason why.

It is because of tax.

They are able to ship from China without adding any local tax as the items are being exported. They then lie on the shipping labels and pretend that the item is under £135 so that the end user doesn't have to pay tax or import duty.

This is pretty common knowledge.

So if the item is shipped directly to you, with the company that takes the money from you just acting as the facilitator, and its picked up at customs as an import evading import tax and VAT are you then liable (as customs / HMRC wouldn't release the item until they are paid the taxes) or can you demand that the persons you passed the money to sort out the evaded tax?

I also guess that if its shipped to a holding company in the UK that you paid and then they pass it on that you definitely wouldn't be liable.

Do grey market operators that can get the equipment at lower cost because its not incurred import duty and VAT operate at risk that the equipment doesn't get stopped at customs?

 

[f/2.8]

So if the item is shipped directly to you, with the company that takes the money from you just acting as the facilitator, and its picked up at customs as an import evading import tax and VAT are you then liable (as customs / HMRC wouldn't release the item until they are paid the taxes) or can you demand that the persons you passed the money to sort out the evaded tax?

I also guess that if its shipped to a holding company in the UK that you paid and then they pass it on that you definitely wouldn't be liable.

Do grey market operators that can get the equipment at lower cost because its not incurred import duty and VAT operate at risk that the equipment doesn't get stopped at customs?

You would be wrong to assume that, as you are liable.

Customs don't search everything even with the stuff they do search they just check it isn't illegal items then pass on based on the paperwork which states that the item has a value of under £135. They simply don't have the time to check every item has paperwork for the right amount of ££££.