Beginner 120 film camera suggestion?

Harlequin565

Harlequin565

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Ian
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Hi folks,

I'm not exactly new to the world of film, and am comfortable developing my own B&W, however I'd like to try something other than 35mm, and 120 roll film seems like the next obvious step up (mainly because I can still easily develop it myself in a tank). I did get a cheapo £10 camera off eBay a while ago, but the results were pretty poor and I'd actually quite like to get a decent result. So then comes the dilemma of cost. I don't mind spending up to a couple of hundred on something decent, but it's a bit of a minefield for me and I'm not sure how I ensure I'm not getting a duffer - esp if buying on eBay (not really sure where else to look). Does anyone have any suggestions for a camera (plus lens) to look at, and would you recommend avoiding eBay?

Also - while I'm here, I pretty much exclusively used HP5+ because it was easy to get hold of (& relatively cheap). I'd quite like something a bit more contrasty if anyone has any suggestions too...
 
The first question is how much bulk will you put up with. There are plenty of 120 folders around as shown in this article. You can buy a rough but useable one for as little as £5 in a charity shop. I've seen some with uncoupled rangefinders for £25 but you'll probably have to pay £100+ for a good example with a coupled rangefinder. Twin lens reflexes are a lot more bulky but many people love that great big piece of ground glass for composing on. If you want to stay under £200 look at the Yashicamat, Minolta Autocord or the older versions of the Rolleicord. SLRs are probably a bit out of your range but Pentacon Sixes have come up below £200 as have the older Mamiya 645s and some of the Bronica ETRs. So there's plenty of choice. If you stick with the folding cameras you can get the full glory of 120 film by choosing a 6x9 such as the Zeiss Super Ikonta 531/2 (go for a post war model if possible).
 
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Hi Ian, as I have a few 120 cameras and you are nearby I'm quite happy to bring my little collection out for you to have a look at.
I have a Holga, Rolleiflex Automat x2, Mamiya C330 and numerous lenses, a Fuji GS645w, and a Ross Ensign 16-20.
The Ross was really inexpensive, is tiny (small SLR sized) and has an awesome lens. As an intro into medium format you can't go far wrong so long as you can embrace the focussing by guessing distance.
There's a couple of shots in the Show us your film shots thread that I took earlier this month taken with it.
Anyway, let me know if you want to meet up and I'll load the car. :D
 
Camera choice is a bit personal in my book! Apart from things like weight (portability), maybe think about general ergonomics & viewfinder type. Would you get on with a waist level focus screen, for instance?

A competent mf camera is quite likely to be mechanically complex rather than electronically complex, a different mindset somewhat to digital.
 
Some good advice from Andrew and your second question should be what size negative are you after as this will obviously have an impact on Andrew's first question.

So medium format cameras are commonly available if the following sizes

6 x 4.5, 6x6, 6x7 (6x8 is available but there's not many options) and 6x9. There are some 6x12 and even 6x17 but these are much less common.

So then as Andrew says, how portable do you want/need it to be?

There's loads of options out there and once you've answered the first two questions there will be loads of opinions from the great unwashed of the F&C section and bucket-loads of experience to be shared.

Good luck with your search.
 
Thanks for the replies folks...

AndrewFlannigan said:
first question is how much bulk will you put up with.
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I don't know :) I do a lot of walking, but have a large backpack, so anything around the size of a normal sandwich box should be fine. Weight isn't a problem.

Andysnap said:
let me know if you want to meet up and I'll load the car.
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Really kind of you Andy. I'll likely take you up on that if that's OK. I think I should probably have a better idea of what I'm looking for first though. I'm in for a knee op next week so mobility will be down for a couple of weeks. Maybe after that.

RaglanSurf said:
what size negative are you after
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I don't know. Last time I shot roll film, it was 6x6, but I like my wide landscapes. I'm not frightened of square. It's not a major decision point for me.

droj said:
ould you get on with a waist level focus screen, for instance?
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This wouldn't bother me.

I'm more interested in getting good quality B&W images. I'm not "into" the light leak, draggy shutter, scratched to hell images. I want resolution and quality (and cost - just can't afford to break the £200 limit) over anything else. Bulk, weight and viewfinder are secondary really. If it won't fit in the pack, I'll figure something out. I appreciate that cost usually = quality, but it's about getting the best for what I have to spend.
 
Harlequin565 said:
Really kind of you Andy. I'll likely take you up on that if that's OK. I think I should probably have a better idea of what I'm looking for first though. I'm in for a knee op next week so mobility will be down for a couple of weeks. Maybe after that.
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Funnily enough I'm off to the hospital this afternoon for an op but on my arm, let me know when you're up to a meet, I only work part time now so I often have days off in the week and evenings are usually ok as well. (y)
 
Since you're oop north then Mr Snap is probably your best bet for a hands on go on his equipment. TBH he doesn't know a great deal but he's friendly, enthusiastic and conveniently placed so not a bad place to start.
 
I'd probably look at Ffordes or West Yorkshire cameras as places to buy from.

I have a rolleiflex automat. Fully manual and it produces decent results. I use the Sunny 16 rule with it and don't bother with a meter. There's also the yashica TLRs but I didn't take to the one I had. I don't use it much as I'm bone idle.

I have a point and shoot fuji GA645i which I really like. It's surprisingly light but over your budget. It's a total opposite of most medium format as it's all auto exposure, motor wind etc. It's an absolute doddle to use.
 
srichards said:
Lifted one too many pints ;) :exit:
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Actually I haven't lifted enough apparently, the training continues. :beer:

RaglanSurf said:
Since you're oop north then Mr Snap is probably your best bet for a hands on go on his equipment. TBH he doesn't know a great deal but he's friendly, enthusiastic and conveniently placed so not a bad place to start.
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Ian already knows these facts, we were on a photographic course together where he learnt significantly more than I did. :D
 
I got my Yashica Mat LM from West Yorkshire cameras. It's a great shop and Howard who owns it is nice. I sometimes just call in when I'm in Leeds to say hi and see what he's got in.
I really like the images the camera produces
 
Andysnap said:
Ian already knows these facts, we were on a photographic course together where he learnt significantly more than I did
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I think that's probably a matter that's up for debate. After all it was Andy that pointed me to these here forums... what... ten years ago now :)

Thanks for all the input guys. I suspect buying Andy a pint and playing with his things will probably get me further than hours of internet research.
 
Something with viewable focus will usually be easier to use, but folding 120 cameras from the 1950s era are usually quite a bit cheaper and can still do an excellent job once you get the hang of how to judge focus distance and get to know your camera lens and where 10 feet actually is on it (rather than relying on the lens marking numbers, which can be a bit out!).

I've got a few folding 120 format cameras of various frame size, plus a couple of Yashica TLRs. Once you and Andy are mobile again (sorry to hear both of you need an op) then I'd be happy to meet up with you both and bring some along to see if you like? Perhaps a pub beer garden might be a good venue if the weather keeps fine?

If you decided you like folding cameras I'm toying with selling a 1950s Voigtlander Bessa I (6x9 negatives with drop in screen to convert to 6x4.5) that I've had fully serviced, which would be a lot cheaper than your maximum budget, but you might decide something with viewable focus suits you better once you've had a look at a few different types.

Anyway, best of luck with your op (both of you) and let me know if you're up for a pint and a look at some cameras. (y)
 
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A couple of hundred squid is quite a tight budget for quality medium format gear even today.
Just to have my 10 penneth though, my Yashicamat 124G was a good camera with built in metering.

I accidentally dropped it off the end of Bognor pier while film changing and never saw it again.

As far as I know, it's still there. It may or may not work but it's free to a good home.
Buyer collects, may need scuba gear.
 
Andrew mentioned the Minolta Autocord above, but without the emphasis it needs as clearly the best ever TLR! [/endhype] Actually it does have one supposed advantage, the film plane is more inline with the rest of the film, so there aren't tight corners which can kink your film and lead to OOF areas... or so I've been told, but obviously never seen as I have the Autocord. :)

With almost all 120 cameras, there's no onboard meter, so it's metering separately, which is a PITA for my style of shooting. Also, you can divide 120 cameras into those with a wind lever of some kind, and those with a knob you turn while looking at film numbers through a little red window (potential source of light leaks if you don't close it afterwards). Personally, I loathe the red window approach, which rules out most folders for me.

But sampling Andy's horde sounds like a really good idea...
 
I've said it before, but I'll say it again: Rolleicord Va or Vb.

They go for around £200. Very light for medium format. Extremely good lens. Reliable. Easy to repair. Built almost as well as a Rolleiflex.

I don't think you can go wrong, unless you absolutely hate the TLR experience.
 
Rolleiflex or Yashamat would be my first choices, both simple and easy to use, both have good lens.
 
Another option might be a Bronica SQ?

Or go for a 4x5 with a roll film back :exit:
 
What focal length do you use on 35mm for landscapes? If you like wide angle shots, your options for those will be somewhat limited on 120.
 
Nomad Z said:
What focal length do you use on 35mm for landscapes?
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I'm happy to work with what I've got. 75mm (is that around 40 in 35mm terms?) seems to be the staple for some of the TLRs people have been suggesting here which is probably narrower than I prefer (24mm is where most of my landscapes fall) but I'm happy to work around it. Again, I think my main constraint is budget - although there are some helpful links & suggestions so far on the thread. Thanks to those who have contributed.
 
Was about to ask if you could put these TLRs in portrait orientation, then realised how stupid a question it was.

Anyway, been googling... Anyone have any thoughts?
- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rolleico...cke/352388819634?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144
- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rolleico...224/332655465680?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144
- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rolleico...ARE/332699193681?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144

The last is untested...Probably not worth the risk?

Also, the "hazy" one isn't something I'd be interested if hazy means hazy images. Is that for the Lomo crowd?

Finally, there's this:
https://wycameras.com/collections/medium-format-bronica-cameras/products/bronica-etr-w-75mm-wlf-exc

It's got no working "multiple exposure" setting, which if that means what I think it means (2 exposures on 1 negative?) I wouldn't be interested in. Seems like a lot of camera for the money, or am I missing something?
West Yorkshire Cameras have a few Rolleicords for under £200 but they all seem to vary in price for what (to an idiot like me) looks like the same thing.
 
Bronnys are good, excellent lenses but they are bulky and heavy. Rolleicords, especially the V's, have really inflated prices at the moment, they are often going for more than the Rolleiflex Automat's.
 
Harlequin565 said:
Finally, there's this:
https://wycameras.com/collections/medium-format-bronica-cameras/products/bronica-etr-w-75mm-wlf-exc

It's got no working "multiple exposure" setting, which if that means what I think it means (2 exposures on 1 negative?) I wouldn't be interested in. Seems like a lot of camera for the money, or am I missing something?
West Yorkshire Cameras have a few Rolleicords for under £200 but they all seem to vary in price for what (to an idiot like me) looks like the same thing.
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A non-working multiple exposure setting means that you likely won't be able to fire the camera without film in it (i.e., dry fire), as the multiple exposure setting enables this. This can actually be quite a critical feature and has actually saved me on a few occasions in the past (e.g., diagnosing or fixing issues)

The multiple-exposure setting also allows you to save a frame if you were to accidentally trigger the shutter with the cap on.

The multiple-exposure lever issue aside, Bronicas are brilliant and arguably offer the best cost/performance ratio in medium format SLRs. My personal Bronica recommendation would be the SQ-A, which has the best balance of features/size/cost.
 
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Harlequin565 said:
I'm happy to work with what I've got. 75mm (is that around 40 in 35mm terms?) seems to be the staple for some of the TLRs people have been suggesting here which is probably narrower than I prefer (24mm is where most of my landscapes fall) but I'm happy to work around it. Again, I think my main constraint is budget - although there are some helpful links & suggestions so far on the thread. Thanks to those who have contributed.
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It's hard to compare focal lengths in terms of FoV because the aspect ratios are different. If it's for width left-to-right, then 75mm on 6x6 is about 41° (assuming 56mm actual image width). On 35mm, with 36mm image width, 41° gives just over 48mm focal length. That gives a ratio between the two of about 1.56, so to get a FoV, left-to-right that matches 24mm (74°), you'd be looking for a lens of 37.5mm on 6x6 or 6x4.5.

In my view, the ETR(S?) in your link is about right in terms of price, although I'd think twice about buying one with a fault (why is it faulty, what caused it, and what's going on inside it?). Potential risk. A look at sold listings on eBay indicates that they can be had for that sort of money, sometimes less, with a bit of patience, although most tend to be a bit more.

The ETR/S with the prism finder and speedgrip is a bit of a lump. However, most of the prisms add metering and they'll make shooting portrait format much easier than with the waist level finder (WLF). The prism also corrects the image left/right, which the WLF doesn't. The speedgrip improves handling a lot when used handheld, especially in portrait. As I say, though, it's a lump with those bits on. With the WLF and no grip, it's noticeably smaller and lighter - with a lens fitted, it's pretty close to the weight and bulk of a TLR. A bit compromised handheld for landscape, but usable enough - not that different from a TLR, but rather awkward in portrait mode. I use my ETRS on a tripod with the WLF, in landscape mode, and it's absolutely fine. It's also perfectly usable on a monopod with a ball head for a bit of steadying at slower speeds.

In the ETR range, there are 40mm and 50mm lenses - left-to-right, equivalent to 26mm and 32mm on a 35mm camera (all with a bit more at top and bottom because 6x4.5 is slightly more square than 36x24). The 50s tend to go for less on average (and I suspect there's a better chance of finding a cheap deal on a 50).

If you were interested in the ETRS, I'd think carefully about what you want and how you want to use it, and then either look for a setup that matches that, or seek out the components separately, or buy a complete one on the understanding that some bits might get replaced. Nearly all come with the 75mm lens, and most have a prism and grip. WLF are quite expensive on their own, often dearer than a prism, so maybe seek out a camera with a WLF if you think you want to try that first. The speedgrips sell for around £40-50 usually, but can be cheaper. They key thing is that it's a system camera, so there are lots of options which influence how it gets used. I'd recommend familiarising with the main options and consider what they'd be like to use, then come up with a configuration to aim for and start looking for deals.
 
A late Zeiss Ikoflex as a TLR option? Get one with a Tessar and it's as good as a Rollei of the same vintage IMO, albeit with a few little operational quirks :)
 
An older Mamiya m645 is a nice light way into SLR medium format. I love using my 1000S as it is nice and light, comfortable in the hand and easy to use. They can usually be found quite cheaply as they don't have interchangeable backs and they have old fashioned cloth shutters.

Reasonably compact with the 80mm f2.8 and WLF fitted. My 1000S next to my 6x9 folders. (franka rollfix and voigtlander Bessa
 
Kei said:
An older Mamiya m645 is a nice light way into SLR medium format. I love using my 1000S as it is nice and light, comfortable in the hand and easy to use. They can usually be found quite cheaply as they don't have interchangeable backs and they have old fashioned cloth shutters.

Reasonably compact with the 80mm f2.8 and WLF fitted. My 1000S next to my 6x9 folders. (franka rollfix and voigtlander Bessa
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The Mamiya M645’s are excellent systems. I’ve had three (but annoyingly sold them all to try different cameras then missed them!). The 35/3.5 lens is particularly awesome :0)
 
Thanks for all the replies folks. @Andysnap popped over for what was intended to be a brew but ended up being a very brief visit due to my flippin' knee bleeding everywhere. Either way, I am now sorted with a bright red Rolleiflex. I even dug out an old flash sync cable today and got it working with my lights and Godox triggers :)

I have a strong suspicion that I'll be upgrading in the near future in my endless search for quality though. I love to print out to 13x19 and the 35mm negs just aren't up to it. The scans need to be super high resolution which inflames even the smallest problem on the negatives. The only 35mm negs I have are self-devved unfortunately (thus scratched to oblivion) and were taken on cheap cameras. I think if I want DSLR (X-T2) quality 13x19s, I'm going to have to shell out some proper money. I'm also fighting a losing battle with my eyesight which is making accurate focussing difficult. I seem to need a different pair of glasses for every distance.

First couple of rolls went to AG on Saturday. We shall see how well I did in a couple of days :)
 
Hope the images, your knee and your eyes work out ok.
As I said the other day, i suspect that you might end up with a nice large format kit in the future.
 
Glad you got sorted out and welcome to the world of old medium format cameras. Best of luck with the results from your first couple of rolls. (y)
 
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