7D thoughts

Peter10d

Peter10d

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Having seen a mixed bag of photo's and comments over the last few weeks on the 7d, where do most people see the camera sitting in Canon's current range. Would it be fair to say it sits somewhere between the 50d and 5dII, or is it really aimed at the sports/wildlife photographer.
 
It is in between the two, but sits closer to the 5dII than the 50d. The 7d beats the 50d in every single area. It has more features, better high ISO performance, HD Video, higher fps, remote flash control, much improved AF system and much more. It actually beats the 5dII in most areas as well, apart from the most important two - high ISO performance and resolution.

In general if you shoot sports or wildlife, go for the extra reach, fps and AF abilities of the 7d. If you shoot portrait, weddings or landscape, the 5dII is generally better. If you want a cheaper, but still very competent body go for the 50D.
 
I wouldn't say it sits between the 50D and the 5DII. It sits between the 50D and the 1DIII/IV and the 5DII sits between the 50D and the 1DsIII.
 
Mine just arrived today :thumbs: Having had the 40D for a couple of years the servo just seems so much faster and so far more accurate but with the dogs moving slowly around the house we will have to see. Had a play with a 5D11 the other week and would have to agree the 7D is more down the 1D route... but both are superb pieces of kit.:canon:
 
I read a lot of the reviews and the 7D sounds so complicated to set up! It seems as though a lot of the discontented comments are from those who haven't quite got it set up correctly.

For me, the thing that put me off it was the lack of quality in low light/high ISO situations. Too many pixels on a small chip makes for noise. It doesn't matter if it can go to whatever silly ISO number they claim, it's the quality at that level that matters to me.

Nikon do seem to have nailed the noise problem.......just need Canon to catch up now.
 
Shot this at 12800 just to see what it was like, not tooo bad as far as I'm concerned, if I need that high ISO I'll use it.

http://SPAM/c3whur/dec/Img_0398.jpg
 
That does look good but I'm more worried about lower ISO performance as from what I've seen line it isn't as impressive as higher ISO.
 
the way i see it is
50D is your all rounder good at everything but could be better.
7D wildlife/sports camera not overly great else where (my opinion don't hit me)
5D mk2 portrait/landscape but also can just get away with anything.
both 1's can take on the world, (a different league)

chatting with someone at canon, the 50D, 5D mk2 & 1D mk4 have gapless sensors where the 7D uses older tech on its sensor, limiting what it can achieve which someone there said it was annoying. to be honest i hope the cameras don't follow the 7D too much as i'm not a fan at all in it's handling

*(1Dmk4, the only one i've played with had it's memory card door taped shut)

i would say if you were looking for the 7D i'd go for a 1Ds Mk2
 
kiko said:
chatting with someone at canon, the 50D, 5D mk2 & 1D mk4 have gapless sensors where the 7D uses older tech on its sensor, limiting what it can achieve which someone there said it was annoying.
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You had this info from someone at Canon? Why would the 7D use older technology than the 50D? The 7D has the same gapless technology.

18 Megapixel C MOS sensor. The EOS 7D sports a new 18 MP APS-C CMOS sensor which is an in-house development. Canon claims the sensor delivers an improved signal to noise ratio which is achieved through a new photodiode and microlens design. The EOS 7D's sensor features the gapless microlenses that we first saw on the EOS 50D but on the new model the distance between microlenses and photodiodes has been reduced which results in the light being more easily focused onto the photodiode.

In fact as you can see - it's an improved sesnor.
 
photostar_1 said:
I read a lot of the reviews and the 7D sounds so complicated to set up! It seems as though a lot of the discontented comments are from those who haven't quite got it set up correctly.

For me, the thing that put me off it was the lack of quality in low light/high ISO situations. Too many pixels on a small chip makes for noise. It doesn't matter if it can go to whatever silly ISO number they claim, it's the quality at that level that matters to me.

Nikon do seem to have nailed the noise problem.......just need Canon to catch up now.
Click to expand...

Nikon's marketing has done a fantastic job and IMO this is down purely to their 12 Mpx full frame sensor. There really isn't anything between D300/D300s and 7D from what I've seen at higher ISO. At the end of the day, sensors that are smaller will be less good at high ISO, whoever makes them.

My 7D is a good camera, but it still won't match the image quality of my 1DsII, although it has other benefits at times like size, weight and crop factor...
 
grumpybadger said:
At the end of the day, sensors that are smaller will be less good at high ISO, whoever makes them.
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That is not strictly true. Advances in technology mean that modern crop sensors can (and often do) perform better than older FF sensors. Only when you compare crop and FF of the same era is that staement correct.

grumpybadger said:
My 7D is a good camera, but it still won't match the image quality of my 1DsII, although it has other benefits at times like size, weight and crop factor...
Click to expand...
My father owns a 1ds mkII & 5D mkI which are both lovely cameras but neuther can match the 7D for high ISO performance. I remember when I used to drool over my dad's 1ds II, but given a straight choice (for my non-professional use) I would pick the 7D over it. I am sure my father would choose the 1ds II over the 7D, but that just goes to show it is wrong make generalisations rergading image quality. In some conditions one will win, whilst in others the other gets the cream. Both are great at what they do. I do love the 1ds AF speed.
 
I am not making generalisations I am speaking from personal experience of owning and using both cameras (40,000 frames on the 1DsII and 7,700 on the 7D) outdoors in real world conditions. I genuinely believe that the 1DsII offers a higher image quality than the 7D.

The 7D will go higher in ISO but the pictures are unusable for what I want/need. The reason I have both cameras is that the 7D has benefits at times like "size, weight and crop factor" but it is noisier than the 1DsII at anything up to ISO1600 in my experience. It is close but the 1DsII produces higher quality images.
 
swag72 said:
There's a good, but long video clip here about the 7D and the bells and whistles etc.

May help some :shrug:
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That's probably worth a watch. I started to watch the first video - there are actually three parts and they're each quite lengthy but they should help anyone struggling with settings on the 7D. It's actually a talk by a Canon bod and he makes an interesting comment when he says "The AF system in the 7D is arguably the most advanced and flexible Canon have ever put into ANY EOS camera."
 
CT said:
That's probably worth a watch. I started to watch the first video - there are actually three parts and they're each quite lengthy but they should help anyone struggling with settings on the 7D. It's actually a talk by a Canon bod and he makes an interesting comment when he says "The AF system in the 7D is arguably the most advanced and flexible Canon have ever put into ANY EOS camera."
Click to expand...

Its a very long watch but very informative. The AF system looks mighty impressive!
 
keirik said:
to my mind it's quite simple

5D is the poor man's 1DS
7D is the poor man's 1D
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LOL I think you couldn't be more wrong, and that's regardless of the fact you don't actually specify which flavour of 1D or 1Ds you mean, or make any meaningful argument to support that statement.

The fact is the 7D has huge crop advantages over any other DSLR currently on the market coupled with some ground breaking features not incorporated (yet) into any other EOS camera. Comparisons with 1 series or any other Canon camera are pretty futile - you either need what the 7D has to offer or you don't.

I bought a Canon 1DMK2n at launch price as soon as it came on the market and quickly became disenchanted when I found it was roundly beaten in the cropping stakes by my 20D, let alone the 40D, which the 20D was replaced with. The 1DMK2 is an old camera now in DSLR terms - the n version was just a re-hash anyway. Buy one today and you're getting a bargain compared to what they were when they offered cutting edge technology to those who needed it and could afford it, but you're kidding yourself if you think that 1 Series advantage doesn't have a 'use by' date. ;)

That video is worth a watch. That same Canon bod also makes the point that the 19 point AF system in the 7D also covers a proportionally wider area of the crop screen than 45 AF point systems in the 1DSMK3 and the 1DMK3, so it has as many AF points as it needs, and has real advantages when it comes to the placement of off centre AF points within the screen area.

The AF system in the 7D is going to find it's way into 1 Series cameras without any doubt. It was too late to introduce it into the recently launced 1DMK1V along with many other 7D features, but you can bet your boots the MKV will incorporate them.
 
Noise at low ISO on 7d?

I don't see any problems with it, here is a pic at ISO 100 and a 100% crop, it was taken with the bathroom light on though so maybe thats a poor test for ISO?

4187600808_431ddeca73_o.jpg


4186838733_46a660d923_o.jpg
 
i think the 7d is closer to the mk 3 than the 5d.
Rob.
 
CT said:
you're kidding yourself if you think that 1 Series advantage doesn't have a 'use by' date. ;)
Click to expand...

I know we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one but using both cameras side by side, I feel my 1DsII is far from its use by date. It has elements where it shows its age (mainly buffer depth and speed of flushing the buffer) but for overall image quality, I still maintain that it is better than the 7D.

CT said:
That video is worth a watch. That same Canon bod also makes the point that the 19 point AF system in the 7D also covers a proportionally wider area of the crop screen than 45 AF point systems in the 1DSMK3 and the 1DMK3, so it has as many AF points as it needs, and has real advantages when it comes to the placement of off centre AF points within the screen area.
Click to expand...

He doesn't actually say the 7D has better AF coverage than the 1DIII, and I don't think it does. He says 1DsIII and 5DII. It's a common problem with FF cameras and one I am well aware of. The 1D uses the same AF sensor as the 1Ds which gives it the best coverage of AF points I've seen on any DSLR.

It doesn't mean the 7D coverage isn't good but I do think it could be better. It could go further into the corners to allow the point to be placed on the third both vertically and horizontally, which it can't.

That said, the AF system on the 7D is impressive in many ways. The tracking of birds in flight using off-centre points is good now I've got the camera set up and the general BIF performance is pretty impressive - as I described in this thread.

I also think the spot AF is a great addition and it was great for maintaining focus on seals in the surf through water spray at Donna Nook.


joescrivens said:
Noise at low ISO on 7d?
I don't see any problems with it, here is a pic at ISO 100 and a 100% crop, it was taken with the bathroom light on though so maybe thats a poor test for ISO?
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I'm glad you're happy - I think it probably depends a lot on what you shoot and how you use the camera. My observation was a personal one from experience and the issue I have is noise in the dark areas. Since I only tend to shoot high ISO in poor light, it really is challenging for any camera.

The example I can post is below.



If you look at the 100% crop behind the turnstone's head, then this is noisier (significantly noisier) than my 1DsII would be at the same ISO (100)

As I say, each to their own and many love the camera but for me it still isn't perfect.

1. It's the best APS-C camera I have yet used
2. It's the best handling camera I have used (except for the silly top dial getting caught and changing - I need to tape it up!)
3. It's electronics and support systems are the best I have ever used
4. It's AF system is good and some of the new modes are great additions
5. I still get better quality images of my 1DsII

So, as a camera it's great but the sensor still isn't the best I've used. Others will disagree (this is an internet forum after all!) but that is my take to date. Therefore, I am very pleased to have both options available and to be able to pick the best tool for the job in hand...

Paul
 
joescrivens said:
Noise at low ISO on 7d?

I don't see any problems with it, here is a pic at ISO 100 and a 100% crop, it was taken with the bathroom light on though so maybe thats a poor test for ISO?
Click to expand...

Looks fine to me Joe. This shot is the other extreme in light about as bad as it gets, at 1600 ISO. Shot with the 7D and 300mm 2.8 wide open at 1/60th sec. Full frame uncropped and I couldn't turn the light on anyway. :D

4187741218_7343ec4301_o.jpg


No NR on this image at all, although it would be dead esy to run just on the bg.
 
grumpybadger, your example looks completely different to both mine and CT which both look great for noise. I can say I have not see any pics I have taken with as much noise as your sample on my own 7d so maybe you have one that isn't perfect, is the firmware up to date?
 
grumpybadger said:
I'm glad you're happy - I think it probably depends a lot on what you shoot and how you use the camera. My observation was a personal one from experience and the issue I have is noise in the dark areas. Since I only tend to shoot high ISO in poor light, it really is challenging for any camera.

The example I can post is below.



If you look at the 100% crop behind the turnstone's head, then this is noisier (significantly noisier) than my 1DsII would be at the same ISO (100)

As I say, each to their own and many love the camera but for me it still isn't perfect.

1. It's the best APS-C camera I have yet used
2. It's the best handling camera I have used (except for the silly top dial getting caught and changing - I need to tape it up!)
3. It's electronics and support systems are the best I have ever used
4. It's AF system is good and some of the new modes are great additions
5. I still get better quality images of my 1DsII

So, as a camera it's great but the sensor still isn't the best I've used. Others will disagree (this is an internet forum after all!) but that is my take to date. Therefore, I am very pleased to have both options available and to be able to pick the best tool for the job in hand...

Paul
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Well I'm not claiming the 7D to be perfect Paul, but let's just take your Turnstone shot above. That close crop is a pretty large one by any standards - even for the 7D. At a rough guess it's around 1/50th of the image? Whether the noise would be better or not on your 1DS2 is a pretty moot point compared to the fact that you couldn't even have pulled off that crop with the 1DS2 and have any usable image left surely?

As I've said all along they're different cameras for different uses. You make a fair point in that it's good to have both but it's difficult to make fair comaprisons between the two as they both excel, but in different areas.
 
joescrivens said:
grumpybadger, your example looks completely different to both mine and CT which both look great for noise. I can say I have not see any pics I have taken with as much noise as your sample on my own 7d so maybe you have one that isn't perfect, is the firmware up to date?
Click to expand...

Firmware is up to date. I think one of the issues is that I am doing a 100% crop of an area in shadow (the birds were in direct sunlight and were exposed for)

The other thing that has just dawned on me is that I am using Lightroom 2.5 with only beta support for 7D so some of my images may need reprocessing when 2.6 is launched.

CT said:
Well I'm not claiming the 7D to be perfect Paul, but let's just take your Turnstone shot above. That close crop is a pretty large one by any standards - even for the 7D. At a rough guess it's around 1/50th of the image? Whether the noise would be better or not on your 1DS2 is a pretty moot point compared to the fact that you couldn't even have pulled off that crop with the 1DS2 and have any usable image left surely?

As I've said all along they're different cameras for different uses. You make a fair point in that it's good to have both but it's difficult to make fair comaprisons between the two as they both excel, but in different areas.
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I agree the crop is beyond what you would ever do in reality Cedric (in fact it is 0.3% of the frame area!) but did it to show that, now I've got to grips with the AF and with good glass, it can be really quite sharp at the pixel level. I have to say, I'm also amazed with the quality of the 70-200 f/4L IS at that.

And true, with the lens, I wouldn't have been able to get that crop out of a 1DsII, but I could have picked a longer lens from my kit bag and used the appropriate length for the body.

I'm just chuffed to have the choice and I'm really quite certain that the 7D has saved me £3000 as I no longer can justify a 1DIV - and that cash has gone on a new lens ;)

When the 1DsIV is out, will I pick up a 1DsIII second hand? I probably will to be honest as for me the choice of APS-C and FF covers everything I conceivably want.

Paul
 
grumpybadger said:
I'm just chuffed to have the choice and I'm really quite certain that the 7D has saved me £3000 as I no longer can justify a 1DIV - and that cash has gone on a new lens ;)
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No argument about that!

When the 1DsIV is out, will I pick up a 1DsIII second hand? I probably will to be honest as for me the choice of APS-C and FF covers everything I conceivably want.

Paul
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To be honest Paul I can see exactly where you're coming from - you're not into photographing small birds anywhere near as much as some of us and probably aren't seeing the same benefits of the 7D that many of us are.

I wa shooting side by side a few months ago with a guy using a 1DS3 and 600mm lens, while I was shooting the same birds with the 50D and 500mm lens. When we compared results afterwards, I was recording significanlty more fine detail in the birds than he was.

Of course with bigger birds/ critters where he could fill the frame or even 'birds in the landscape' type shots, then he'd have seen the advantage with more/larger pixels. :shrug:
 
I have no idea what design decisions and compromises Canon have made but although the higher ISO settings are at least available and useable and I think show an improvement over previous Canon APS-C cameras even though they still show noise and probably reduced dynamic range too IMHO from what I've seen there's still at least a question mark over the lower ISO shots and if they represent any real improvement over previous cameras or not, resolution aside.
 
I agree with Cedric and Paul, I have just returned from the Galapagos and was using my 1Ds3 with a 24-105 for most of the landscapes and a 7D with either my 300 2,8 or the 100-400 4.5 5.6 and the overall combination of the 2 bodies and 3 lenses was about perfect. The iso performance of the 7D was also excellent although I haven't done a side by side comparison and using Noiseware professional plug in on CS4 I could get acceptable results at 1600 iso.
For me the combination of the bodies couldn't be bettered and the 1.6 crop was a definite advantage over the 1.3 on the 1D 3.

I'm delighted and doubt whether I could or would want to justify a 1d 4. Rather get more glass...(the new 300 2.8 which is rumoured to be just round the corner?)

George
 
interesting reading lads, thanks :)

George said:
I agree with Cedric and Paul, I have just returned from the Galapagos and was using my 1Ds3 with a 24-105 for most of the landscapes and a 7D with either my 300 2,8 or the 100-400 4.5 5.6 and the overall combination of the 2 bodies and 3 lenses was about perfect. The iso performance of the 7D was also excellent although I haven't done a side by side comparison and using Noiseware professional plug in on CS4 I could get acceptable results at 1600 iso.
For me the combination of the bodies couldn't be bettered and the 1.6 crop was a definite advantage over the 1.3 on the 1D 3.
Click to expand...

1ds3 is FF isn't it?

drew
 
buckas said:
interesting reading lads, thanks :)



1ds3 is FF isn't it?

drew
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Sorry, Drew, I perhaps mislead you a bit with that last comment, yes the cameras I had were the 7D and the 1Ds mk3, my comment was really meant to say that the 7D was a better camera for me to take than the 1D3 which wouldn't have had such effective reach as it is a 1.3 crop, and I didn't make that clear in my post.
For the early shots in the cloud forest in the highlands of Ecuador, the 7D enabled me to get shots which I couldn't have got with a 1D mk 3 as firstly the 18 versus 10 MP allowed greater cropping, secondly the iso performance is better, and thirdly the 1.6 crop was an additional advantage. Hope that is clear!!
George
 
artyman said:
Shot this at 12800 just to see what it was like, not tooo bad as far as I'm concerned, if I need that high ISO I'll use it.

http://SPAM/c3whur/dec/Img_0398.jpg
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Yes, but that is in reasonable light. I'd like to see shots taken in a dark gig venue with only red/green lights and see what 12800 looks like then!

;)
 
For noise reduction, I think "noiseware professional" is excelent, BTW and is worth a look.
G.
 
photostar_1 said:
Yes, but that is in reasonable light. I'd like to see shots taken in a dark gig venue with only red/green lights and see what 12800 looks like then!

;)
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But that is perhaps a point. High ISO isn't just for shooting in dimly lit clubs, it is part of the cameras armoury to enable perhaps high sutter speed and still have enough for a good DOF, 12800 isn't just for nightime shooting. Any camera when pushed to the limit is going to fall down somewhere, my 350D just does it a darn sight sooner.
 
Noise is visible on the 7D from ISO 400. However the camera handles further ISO bumps extremely well and all of my shots are fine up to 3200, with 6400 being "usable". At ISO 400, I honestly believe the 40D (& 1dsII) handles noise better. But by ISO 1600 the 7D is cleaner and it easily beats both at 3200. The noise on the 7d is "friendly noise" which works well with correction software. I have even printed A4 @ ISO 6400 (after noise reduction) and the results have been very impressive. Sure it is not a 5D mkII, but it does get impressively close to modern FF performance. Crop sensors do not get better than this. Even the excellent Nikon D300s with 33% less pixels and a smaller crop (1.5 vs 1.6) can only match the 7D at high ISO's.
 
For reasons on my previous post, I'd take a 7D against a 1D3, had the chance to take either with me on my recent trip and the 7D got shots I just wouldn't have got with a 1D3. For certain types of photography, I think an 18 MP 1.6 crop is better than a 10MP 1.3 crop. The only advantage the 1D would have would be ruggedness and weather resistance, however the 7D is no slouch in either of these points. I'm a convert, and it'll take a lot to persuade me to change my 7D for a 1D4.
I will now go and hide from the flack......:bat::nuts:
 
Excellent thread. I'm hoping to learn if a 7D would be a good match for my new 400L f5.6.
Mike
 
PlaneMike said:
Excellent thread. I'm hoping to learn if a 7D would be a good match for my new 400L f5.6.
Mike
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Mike, I'm sure it would. I've never had the 400 f5.6 but all reports seem to indicate that it's a sharp lens, so I don't think you'd be disappointed.
 
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