A Major Dilemma

CaptainPenguin

CaptainPenguin

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5,161
Name
Nigel Cliff
Edit My Images
Yes
As many of you will know I photograph my local West Midlands League football team and have since the start of the season been supplying shots to the local rag for free,and have already had a tatering on here for that.
So after half a season of shots being published regularly I have asked them to discuss payment and they have come back with Sorry but no can do.

So I could pick up my toys and tell them to fill the column inches with something else but the lads at the club like seeing themselves in print and it is good publicity for the club.

So is there a third way or am I stuck between a rock and a hard place
 
Bucketp said:
I think you shot yourself in foot when you started supplying them for free.
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I'd agree.
I'd tell them to bugger off, and walk. At least you've been published so getting paid work is gonna be easier....

Doubt they'd get anyone else working for free when you leave
 
Bucketp said:
I think you shot yourself in foot when you started supplying them for free.
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agreed , you have 2 options , stop sending them or keep on taking them for nothing , you aint going to get them to pay now :shrug:
 
Stop sending and hope that there are enough complaints that they call you back.

Meanwhile cash in on your publicity and good luck.

Just a point tho, AT PRESENT you are able to advertise yourself as photographer for the local rag, so do so.

Once you pull the plug, that benefit disappears.
 
rizla01 said:
Stop sending and hope that there are enough complaints that they call you back.

Meanwhile cash in on your publicity and good luck.

Just a point tho, AT PRESENT you are able to advertise yourself as photographer for the local rag, so do so.

Once you pull the plug, that benefit disappears.
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Excellent point Terry never thought of that
 
CaptainPenguin said:
As many of you will know I photograph my local West Midlands League football team and have since the start of the season been supplying shots to the local rag for free,and have already had a tatering on here for that.
So after half a season of shots being published regularly I have asked them to discuss payment and they have come back with Sorry but no can do.

So I could pick up my toys and tell them to fill the column inches with something else but the lads at the club like seeing themselves in print and it is good publicity for the club.

So is there a third way or am I stuck between a rock and a hard place
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Afraid you made a rod for you own back by giving them the images for free, if you say payment or no images now, they'll either not bother with images or they'll find the next person who thinks "i'll give them for free to start off then when they see the quality i'll start charging"

Apologies if that sounds harsh Nigel, certainly not a dig at you personally either :)
 
Ask them to reconsider mate, if they refuse then im afraid wether or not players like to see themselves in print or not it's time to walk away

Thing is mate you didn't listen to good advice a while ago and are now paying the price, for whatever reason inexperienced togs DO NOT listen to their more experienced counterparts.

Hold out and see if they crack, even if they dont youll be no better or worse off than you are now and at least youll have stood your ground and done what i hopefully think you know is right.
 
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Depends why you take the photos in the first place -If its not a source of income and you enjoy being pitch side and taking the photos and the socializing that goes with it after the match, then seeing you photos in print, will the payment make much difference to you? what will you get after tax £20 :shrug: and all the grief that goes with keeping records, tax returns etc etc
 
I used to give mine to the local rag for free for one season. At the beginning of this season I rang the editor up to ask for payment to use my images. I had a couple of clients who were paying to use them and the local rags weren't. I called explained the situation he said no. But we chatted and came to an agreement. Since then, my situation has changed, I now no longer photograph for the local club, but the paper come to me for stock images and I get paid for it.

I went in with the attitude of, as much as I like seeing my work in print, it's not the be all and end all of everything. I get enough recognition from the Club and the players so I can do with out, also, I could and should be getting paid for my work like all the other images in that paper. So if they don't want to pay me, then they can't have it. I shouldn't choose which client have to pay and which don't.

If they really want them, as Gary says, wait and see if they crack. But it's your decision. I know what I did and I'm glad I did, it has given me the confidence to always sell my images rather than give them away.
 
My advice would be to contact them again and inform them nicely you are unable to continue to send them free. You shall continue to photograph the team and should they want any images from any game you would be happy to supply at an agreed rate. If they never contact you you have lost nothing and if they do then you've gain quite a bit.
 
If he does leave it and stop sending the images in for free, would getting the players and others to contact the paper and ask why is the team no longer getting any coverage in a hope that they realise there are people out there who want to see the images. With the possible outcome being a call for the OP from the paper asking for images?
 
Little John said:
If he does leave it and stop sending the images in for free, would getting the players and others to contact the paper and ask why is the team no longer getting any coverage in a hope that they realise there are people out there who want to see the images. With the possible outcome being a call for the OP from the paper asking for images?
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It probably wouldnt do any harm but the cynical side of me says the paper will think its a set up.
 
snapzz said:
My advice would be to contact them again and inform them nicely you are unable to continue to send them free. You shall continue to photograph the team and should they want any images from any game you would be happy to supply at an agreed rate. If they never contact you you have lost nothing and if they do then you've gain quite a bit.
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If they decide not to pay for your images, Just send a link to the images on your website to the pic editor ...And make sure they clearly have your copyright emblazoned on them. Just make sure you check the local rag after each game for usage. :):) Show them what they are missing !!
 
Hi Nigel I concur with Gary & Helen, I know how nice it is to see the pics in the paper, & I also know how much the "side" likes them;), (i've shot local footy for over 10 years now!), however, you could still make sales/cudos with the players via Flikr or photobox etc which would also up sales from the opposition too!, get some cards!, get some web space!, (i know you have a flikr!) & give a card to each team manager after each game pointing to the relevant web (protect with watermarks!). also inform the local press of the address & let them know images are available @ X amount. The fact that you've asked about this on the forum leads me to believe you know what the correct avanue is;). Kind regards Graham.
 
Dogfish_magnet said:
Depends why you take the photos in the first place -If its not a source of income and you enjoy being pitch side and taking the photos and the socializing that goes with it after the match, then seeing you photos in print, will the payment make much difference to you? what will you get after tax £20 :shrug: and all the grief that goes with keeping records, tax returns etc etc
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*headdesks*

you still get most of that without giving your photos away for free to a big company (the newspaper) to make a profit from!
 
Thanks folks for the comments the vast majority of which were helpful,I am still not 100% sure which way to jump but hopefully after chatting to the club on Saturday things will be clearer
 
I dont know if the captain is a bigger idiot in being a pretend photographer but giving away free pictures or his disgraceful blog - professional journalists are professional because they study law as part of their training. Understand libel laws is essential. Its ok thinking something and talking in the pub about your views, but stating them as fact and publishing them is only asking for trouble. Idiot.
 
soccersnapper said:
I dont know if the captain is a bigger idiot in being a pretend photographer but giving away free pictures or his disgraceful blog - professional journalists are professional because they study law as part of their training. Understand libel laws is essential. Its ok thinking something and talking in the pub about your views, but stating them as fact and publishing them is only asking for trouble. Idiot.
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Might I ask what that's all about
 
soccersnapper said:
I dont know if the captain is a bigger idiot in being a pretend photographer but giving away free pictures or his disgraceful blog - professional journalists are professional because they study law as part of their training. Understand libel laws is essential. Its ok thinking something and talking in the pub about your views, but stating them as fact and publishing them is only asking for trouble. Idiot.
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We do not tolerate personal attacks of this nature on this forum
 
Actually soccersnapper is an extremely respected football photographer who is quite rightly annoyed at the sheer idiocy of some people who purport to be professional photographers.

The profession is devalued to breaking point and this is another example of it. I think he is quite justified in being a little miffed.

You can mock him if you wish, as people have done in other threads but to be honest he's achieved more than any of you ever will.

Nigel, I think you know exactly the blogpost he's on about. It's libellous and just poor journalism. Whether or not you like it, by purporting to be a sports photographer your views would be seen as journalistic. Your 31st Dec blog would get a big legal letter sent in if that was in a newspaper.
 
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fabs said:
We do not tolerate personal attacks of this nature on this forum
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High emotion subject marc. Let's not drive away another expert just because they have a passion on the subject.
 
jamesb84 said:
High emotion subject marc. Let's not drive away another expert just because they have a passion on the subject.
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Why should we tolerate personal insults just because he knows how to take a photograph?

Personally, I don't care if Ansel Admas is reincarnated and registers with TP, if he's rude and abusive towards other members, he's not welcome here IMO.

If you can't make your point without resorting to petty name calling then perhaps you should rethink the point you are trying to make?

Anyway, I'm not interested in an argument, so I'm saying no more.
 
jamesb84 said:
Actually soccersnapper is an extremely respected football photographer who is quite rightly annoyed at the sheer idiocy of some people who purport to be professional photographers.

The profession is devalued to breaking point and this is another example of it. I think he is quite justified in being a little miffed.

You can mock him if you wish, as people have done in other threads but to be honest he's achieved more than any of you ever will.

Nigel, I think you know exactly the blogpost he's on about. It's libellous and just poor journalism. Whether or not you like it, by purporting to be a sports photographer your views would be seen as journalistic. Your 31st Dec blog would get a big legal letter sent in if that was in a newspaper.
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James I don't purport to be a professional photographer or a journalist and although my Blog is less than complimentary about Alex Ferguson I'm not really sure what is libellous about it.I appreciate the views of Professional photographers on here and have been "Slagged" off by some of them but they have proven their professionalism by doing it in a proper manner.I have never to my knowledge "Mocked" Soccersnapper and don't think I deserved the comments he has made.
 
jamesb84 said:
High emotion subject marc. Let's not drive away another expert just because they have a passion on the subject.
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Seriously James, dont make me laugh, this guy has driven himself away and to be honest i dont give a flying fart if this forum never sees him or his like again, take a look back at all 11 of his previous posts and you will clearly see he's not the most constructive or respectful togger weve had around here.

Of course hes experienced and has even tried to pass some of this experience on but theres a right way and a wrong way, theres politeness and theres down right rudeness , perhaps if he removed his head from his arse his mouth wouldnt be so full of his own brown stuff.

Like i say, theyre a right way and wrong way.
 
Just to get back on track, one thing you could try is, if your local rag is anything like ours it will have a little box advert somewhere saying " If you wish to purchase any of the photos in this issue please contact us stating the picture code number and cheque made payable, Etc, etc, etc. You could get someone to order one and once it was delivered you could then approach the paper to renegotiate and discuss copyright issues etc, etc.
 
Right gentlemen, last chance for this thread, any more personal insults, avoiding of swear filters or general rudeness and flaming from anyone and the thread is gone.

You can have this debate without getting personal if you try. You can also respect each others opinion even if you don't agree with it, so no inflaming the situation please, lets just go back to advising the OP on the best way to tackle his situation.


Thanks
 
Not my fault YOU chose a profession that is now open to the masses, not MY fault that the media now can source photos without payment - its just how it is and its not going to change - its just going to get worse.

In IT we've already had it - The industry took a big hit when people started outsourcing, Helpdesks, programming , support etc etc all shipped out to India and eastern European companies - Its how business evolves and grows.
 
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Lasagne said:
I think soccersnapper might be a Man U fan :LOL:
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No they are not they are one of THE best sports photographers in the UK, some people might find them to be a bit blunt but such is life.

I can see some people don't like it :(

Well done on loosing another excellent source of help, advice and learning.

I doubt if they will be back :(
 
Rovers_Andy said:
No they are not they are one of THE best sports photographers in the UK, some people might find them to be a bit blunt but such is life.

I can see some people don't like it :(

Well done on loosing another excellent source of help, advice and learning.

I doubt if they will be back :(
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Doesnt matter if he's David Bailey Andy, doesnt matter if hes the most respected footy tog in the country, hes certainally not highly respected as a person, if he wants people to respect his opinions he seriously needs to be respectful himself, i think if he'd have said what he did about you then you would have rightfully tore a strip off him.

Like i said before, theres a right way and a wrong way, this was IMHO the wrong way and his 11 posts on this forum clearly demonstrate he doesn't give a flying fart about anyone elses opinions but his own.

Good photographer maybe, nice person not so.

I wont miss him one bit.

Can we let this one drop now as this has already been done to death here and on several previous topica.
 
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