A7R3 or D850 or 5D4

Bollygum

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At the risk of starting an argument (which I don't want), I'd like to know how people who can use these cameras decide on which one. I presume that the primary reason is, as always, investment in lenses and familiarity with the beast that you next buy, and they are beasts that take a huge amount of getting used to.

I suppose the question comes down to the hypothetical - if you were starting out and you needed to decide the top line camera to take you into the future, what would you choose, and why?

I'll state my biases up front. I own 2 Sony A7R2 and a Canon 1DS Mk3, a Canon 5D3 and a Canon 7D2 and I will soon be getting a Sony A7R3. I see no reason why I would change from Sony, though I will still occasionally buy a Canon lens (eg the new TS-E macro lenses). I originally changed from Canon to Sony because Sony made me an ambassador, which is a pretty good reason to change, but since then I have had no inclination to go back and have collected a lot of Sony and Zeiss lenses. I know camera ambassadors are generally treated with huge amounts of scepticism, but I'm really not interested in selling Sony (I tried selling insurance when I was young and desperate - I didn't last long because I couldn't see why people would want to waste their money) .
 
The only one of these that I’ve actually used is the canon. Father has one. Great camera. Had a d810 for a while myself too. I think it’s a tricky question because most people buying at this level are not newcomers and will be invested in a system one way or another. To change everything requires serious motivation. It’s not just lenses and bodies but all the bits and bobs that become a pain, flashes, batteries, remotes even memory cards in some cases.

But in the spirit of the question, it would be d850 or Sony for me. I think the bodies are ahead of the canon. Biggest draw for canon is the huge lens line up and massive used market. If Sony had that, it would be Sony but when I looked at this I recently I realised used lenses were going to be harder to come by and expensive. New lenses are expensive, no getting around it.

So probably Nikon for me which would be best of both worlds but I’d want to try the Sony first.
 
gad-westy said:
The only one of these that I’ve actually used is the canon. Father has one. Great camera. Had a d810 for a while myself too. I think it’s a tricky question because most people buying at this level are not newcomers and will be invested in a system one way or another. To change everything requires serious motivation. It’s not just lenses and bodies but all the bits and bobs that become a pain, flashes, batteries, remotes even memory cards in some cases.

But in the spirit of the question, it would be d850 or Sony for me. I think the bodies are ahead of the canon. Biggest draw for canon is the huge lens line up and massive used market. If Sony had that, it would be Sony but when I looked at this I recently I realised used lenses were going to be harder to come by and expensive. New lenses are expensive, no getting around it.

So probably Nikon for me which would be best of both worlds but I’d want to try the Sony first.
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No, most are current users which means that there is probably an investment in some lenses and expertise. I think your idea of trying both before you decide makes a lot of sense. Of course that can be difficult unless you have a father who is willing to lend. :)
 
I'm a Nikon shooter so my preference would be the D850 > A7R3 > Canon. However, you've asked which is the best moving forward if starting out and as much as the Nikon is on my wish list I'd have to say the Sony for any of those starting out and wishing to future proof. That is of course if you can get on with the poor (imo) ergonomics and high price of the FE mount lenses. I think mirrorless is the future, and Sony are constantly making innovations whereas Canikon seem to be happy to rest on their laurels quite a bit.
 
With a huge sample of 2, Canon don't seem to be doing very well, but that may well be because we started with 2 Nikon users.
 
I started Sony and went Nikon. Whilst I admire the canon lens line up the bodies are too far behind now and it’s not like Sony/Nikon don’t have exceedingly good lenses.
 
I've used Canon and Nikon in the past (5d mk3, Nikon D3s, D3x etc) but have fully embraced Sony as the future. Dynamic range and sensors are fantastic and I like the small form factor. I only have an old A7 partly by choice (cheap and smallest of the A7 series) and partly by necessity since I can't afford A7r 2 or 3. Really surprised that still Canikon haven't really jumped on the mirrorless bandwagon and am sure they are and will miss out. People may moan about th e AF but I haven't had any problems even with the A7 so can only imagine how good the AF is on the later models. I only really use 2 lenses and here I haven't gone cheap but bought secondhand Zeiss Batis 25 and 85mm and these and the body make a fantastic small, lightish landscape kit which is the biggest benefit to me as I'm usually out walking or climbing in the Cuillin on Skye. No way would I go back to DSLR format.
 
I shoot Canon, I've looked at Sony, and there is a lot to like, but the cost of the lenses and selling / rebuying and time investment in learning a new system means that for the moment I'll stick with Canon. If Sigma / Tamron start producing lenses for Sony, them I'd consider a change. The Sony / Zeiss lenses are just too expensive for me at the moment.

If I was starting again, in honesty, at the moment, I'd still choose Canon as I have friends with Canon gear I can borrow / ask for advice. I don't like the lack of innovation with Canon (not just sensor tech...things like lack of backlit buttons and illuminated focus point indication, lack of IS on the 24-70 are inexcusable and easily fixed).
 
Having shot Canon for 25 years before moving to Sony this year, my choice would be Sony-Canon-Nikon. The only reason that Canon comes before Nikon is down to what I a used to and ergonomics. However for someone new, it isn’t as straight forward, certainly from a tech point of view Sony would seem to win out, but it still comes down to what you want to use it for. I should imagine that if you were wanting something tough and durable that would cope with inclement weather then the DSLR’s would beat the Sony due to the enhanced weather sealing. From what Ive seen the Sonys don’t sontain a huge amount of rubber sealing, certainly when you look at the lens mounts, there aren’t the gaskets on the lenses to seal between body. The downside is that the kit is bulkier so not as easy to transport
 
I don't like the ergonomics on the Sony A7s - maybe they have changed on the latest ones, but I just didn't like them. I shoot Nikon so if I were to change systems to one of the three you mention I'd go with the Canon - I've used a 5D M3 before and I found it to be a very good camera so suspect the 5D4 will be better still. Having just gone through an exercise of deciding if to change or not I can understand the concerns as such. If I was given the simple choice of which of the three I'd choose the Nikon first followed by Canon ... so if I had to change I'd go Canon, if I could choose any I'd get the Nikon.
 
I've always used Canon and, like many, have a large investment in lenses, flashes etc etc. I've though a couple of times about going to a dual brand system but it's never transpired, mainly because of cost. If you're a fan of mirrorless cameras then the Sony is a no brainer but in my case the lack of long focal length lenses would mean it's a no go.

Likewise if you just look at sensor performance then you would conclude that Canon lags behind the others.

However, for me, there is more to buying a camera than a sensor. Ergonomics, lens line up, customer service from the manufacturer all play a part and here I think Canon are better than the others taking all of these into account especially in customer service at which Nikon seem woeful listening to the experience of friends who have needed to return their kit to Nikon for service or repair. I have no great desire to have a smaller camera system, I'm happy using full size DSLRs and every body I buy gets a grip added to it.

I use a 1DX MkII and 5D MkIV and I really don't feel that I'm misssing out on much compared to the others for the photography that I'm interested in which is 95% Wildlife and macro.

If I was a landscape photographer then I would probably take a completely different view.
 
I had a Nikon SLR for decades and then Canon DSLR's for something over ten years or so but have been a Sony A7 user since they came out.

For me the smaller form factor was the driving force but now I've come to value the EVF and in view WYSIWYG goodies that mirrorless brings. I think that the whole OVF v EVF and focusing, exposure and DoF aids are big issues and decisions and I see massive advantages for me in mirrorless and I wouldn't be without them now and then there's the ability to use old lenses very easily. To be honest I value these things more than a decimal point give or take of DR and in your place I'd think more about these things than ultimate image quality as they're all probably easily good enough.
 
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If I was a professional I would buy a professional body.

Those are not top of the line, they don't have Kevlar shutters
 
ChrisHeathcote said:
Having shot Canon for 25 years before moving to Sony this year, my choice would be Sony-Canon-Nikon. The only reason that Canon comes before Nikon is down to what I a used to and ergonomics. However for someone new, it isn’t as straight forward, certainly from a tech point of view Sony would seem to win out, but it still comes down to what you want to use it for. I should imagine that if you were wanting something tough and durable that would cope with inclement weather then the DSLR’s would beat the Sony due to the enhanced weather sealing. From what Ive seen the Sonys don’t sontain a huge amount of rubber sealing, certainly when you look at the lens mounts, there aren’t the gaskets on the lenses to seal between body. The downside is that the kit is bulkier so not as easy to transport
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I treat cameras as badly as anyone I know, well with one exception. I leave cameras in hot, humid conditions almost continuously. No cameras really like it but the canons generally do better than the Sony, though none have Brocken permanently. My friend who treats them worse changes lenses inside the craters of active (ie erupting) volcanoes. That really does break cameras.
 
Gaz J said:
I've always used Canon and, like many, have a large investment in lenses, flashes etc etc. I've though a couple of times about going to a dual brand system but it's never transpired, mainly because of cost. If you're a fan of mirrorless cameras then the Sony is a no brainer but in my case the lack of long focal length lenses would mean it's a no go.

Likewise if you just look at sensor performance then you would conclude that Canon lags behind the others.

However, for me, there is more to buying a camera than a sensor. Ergonomics, lens line up, customer service from the manufacturer all play a part and here I think Canon are better than the others taking all of these into account especially in customer service at which Nikon seem woeful listening to the experience of friends who have needed to return their kit to Nikon for service or repair. I have no great desire to have a smaller camera system, I'm happy using full size DSLRs and every body I buy gets a grip added to it.

I use a 1DX MkII and 5D MkIV and I really don't feel that I'm misssing out on much compared to the others for the photography that I'm interested in which is 95% Wildlife and macro.

If I was a landscape photographer then I would probably take a completely different view.
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I doubt that you are missing very much as there really isn't a huge difference between the 3.
I would class myself as a nature photographer and I can see that certain features have made the Sony easier, particularly for macro. On the other hand hand the lack of really long lenses could be a problem for some (not me as I don't want to carry a 600mm lens around with me, even if I could justify it, which I can't).
 
GTG said:
If I was a professional I would buy a professional body.

Those are not top of the line, they don't have Kevlar shutters
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No - but they have far more resolution than a full pro body and for pro landscapers thats ideal. £4k for a 20mp camera, I wouldn't pay that when I can get 2x D810s for that. Shutters aren't that big a deal to replace.
 
I doubt there are that many people just starting out on the kit treadmill who will look at the top-of-the-range model of any brand and buy an entry-level model on the basis of that. By the time they are ready to upgrade, maybe for the second time, and can afford it, the top-of-the range body will probably been superceded, possibly twice - and who can predict the future?

FWIW, when I first went digital it was the canon 20D that was just right for me so I bought in to Canon. Ten years later I may regret that decison, but we are where we are..........
 
I'm heavily invested in Nikon and I use the long lenses more than the rest (for fun). That would mean the D850 for me *if* I were to buy one (I'm not, I use D5/D810).

The thing that keeps me away from Sony is the lens lineup. I use flash frequently enough that the mechanical shutter capabilities are important. And the dedicated PDAF sensor system still has performance advantages over on sensor PDAF.
 
I think that asking hypotheticals is very complicated as nobody is going to be buying a camera like that without some background. So, you will buy your camera based on what you already have, what your friends have, etc. There is, no doubt, some element of rational evaluation of the specs of the possible cameras, but even that can be hard to evaluate (what is an extra 5% of pixels worth or some extra focus points). Then there is the crystal ball gazing to assess what may happen in the future, but it all makes for nearly endless discussions about which is best. Even the sales performance is sometimes suspected to be wrong as people are not truly rational beings. Sometimes we elect an Adolf Hitler, which clearly (with hindsight) wasn't a good idea. Not that buying a camera is as important as who we elect and we possibly put more thought into it.
 
Bollygum said:
When did you start? And would you do the same now?
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Technically I started in ‘88 with a zenit but...

In 2011 Sony mirrorless (nex) and then onto A65/A77 and A99 and then Nikon D750/D600.

If I could afford to I would go Sony A99(ii) and the alpha mount zeiss lenses. I used to have them all but baby/house yada yada.

If I had my time again I’d go straight to Nikon as you get the benefit of Sony sensors and some very cheap sharp lenses.
 
Lemaildetom said:
For an ambassador you are really not selling your camera very well!
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I'm not trying to sell it at all. That would just start an argument and as I said, I don't want that.
Don't get me wrong, I think that, for me, it is the best ff camera on the market today, by quite a margin, but I do know that there are a lot of factors that go into the buying decision. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that it will outsell the Nikon and probably the Canon equivalents, at least in the USA. We'll have to wait to see what the sales are because that is likely to determine the investment in new releases in that line.
 
I have the Nikon D850 and recently used the Sony A7RIII.
I have large hands and find the D850 more comfortable to use and menu system more user friendly.
The only thing that i'd like is eye focus from the Sony, other than that the D850 does all I need and more.
I have invested in Nikon glass so it'd be an arduous task to change, but there's nothing that would make me want that upheaval currently.
Although not the same second hand lens availability as Canon, i find Nikon glass reasonable and if not in a hurry, then it can be found.
Preference would be Nikon->Sony->Canon the reason is i feel both Nikon and Sony are ahead of Canon in the camera bodies at the moment. All this can change with the release of a camera from Canon.
You'll really have to find the one that suits you the best, the only reason i started with Nikon is that i was handed one to fill in as second shooter at a wedding, from that moment on i was hooked.
 
wilt said:
I have the Nikon D850 and recently used the Sony A7RIII.
I have large hands and find the D850 more comfortable to use and menu system more user friendly.
The only thing that i'd like is eye focus from the Sony, other than that the D850 does all I need and more.
I have invested in Nikon glass so it'd be an arduous task to change, but there's nothing that would make me want that upheaval currently.
Although not the same second hand lens availability as Canon, i find Nikon glass reasonable and if not in a hurry, then it can be found.
Preference would be Nikon->Sony->Canon the reason is i feel both Nikon and Sony are ahead of Canon in the camera bodies at the moment. All this can change with the release of a camera from Canon.
You'll really have to find the one that suits you the best, the only reason i started with Nikon is that i was handed one to fill in as second shooter at a wedding, from that moment on i was hooked.
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Sounds pretty reasonable. Unlike you, I like the small form factor as it is easier to carry. I think the Sony has a few more advantages, like silent shutter, live view focusing and not blacking out while taking a picture, but there isn't a lot between the cameras. If I already had Nikon glass it is unlikely that I would change, but I'm very happy with Sony now.
 
In truth, the A73 is the only flagship camera you list.
The Nikon D5 and the Canon 1Dx2 are the other top of the line models.
 
soupdragon said:
In truth, the A73 is the only flagship camera you list.
The Nikon D5 and the Canon 1Dx2 are the other top of the line models.
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To be fair both the Nikon D5 and Canon 1Dx2 will probably have better fps and auto-focus tracking compared to the SOny A7 RIII.
The Sony A9 is probably a more direct competitor for those. :)
 
soupdragon said:
In truth, the A73 is the only flagship camera you list.
The Nikon D5 and the Canon 1Dx2 are the other top of the line models.
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D5 and 1Dx2 are not high res / studio flagships. Call Canon and ask.
 
soupdragon said:
Canon uk names the 1Dx2 as their flagship camera.
Check their web site for professional cameras.

https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/pro-dslr-cameras/

Same with Nikon.

https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/dslr-cameras/d5.html
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Surely there are different sorts of "professional flagship cameras."

I'm not in the market for a 1Dx2 (for example) but I see it as a relatively low mp count camera (it's 20mp isn't it and that's hardly high resolution for these day) built for robustness, speed of operation and AF performance... sort of suitable for sports shooters maybe.

DPR says it's for "Sports photographers, event photographers, anyone who needs great quality video without a lot of work"

I'm also not in the market for a higher mp count flagship camera but I'd imagine those cameras (30 or 40+ mp count) are aimed at people who maybe shoot landscape or maybe studio stuff?
 
woof woof said:
Surely there are different sorts of "professional flagship cameras."

I'm not in the market for a 1Dx2 (for example) but I see it as a relatively low mp count camera (it's 20mp isn't it and that's hardly high resolution for these day) built for robustness, speed of operation and AF performance... sort of suitable for sports shooters maybe.

DPR says it's for "Sports photographers, event photographers, anyone who needs great quality video without a lot of work"

I'm also not in the market for a higher mp count flagship camera but I'd imagine those cameras (30 or 40+ mp count) are aimed at people who maybe shoot landscape or maybe studio stuff?
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I have no idea what criteria manufacturers apply to determine what their flagship camera is.
All I'm saying is, that's what Canon and Nikon claim.
 
soupdragon said:
I have no idea what criteria manufacturers apply to determine what their flagship camera is.
All I'm saying is, that's what Canon and Nikon claim.
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Doesn't mean you have to believe them.

Ask yourself what your own criteria is for different types of photography and what cameras fulfil your needs. If you'd choose a xxx for sport and landscape and studio... Good For You :D
 
soupdragon said:
I have no idea what criteria manufacturers apply to determine what their flagship camera is.
All I'm saying is, that's what Canon and Nikon claim.
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Wherever they sit in their brand's range, these three are clearly in direct competition. All high MP all rounders at similar price points.
 
soupdragon said:
I have no idea what criteria manufacturers apply to determine what their flagship camera is.
All I'm saying is, that's what Canon and Nikon claim.
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They happen to be the most expensive due to I suspect market leading fps and extreme ruggedness for sports and war journalists. These are almost useless features to studio and advertising photographers who instead require far higher resolution. 5DsR / D850 is hence a flagship of a different kind for a different market.
 
The thing is its not all about what a "flagship" camera is or isn't, its about the camera that best suits your needs.

Take me for instance, my needs are very specific due to my very limited physical abilities, weight of both body and lenses is my primary concern/focus, followed by physical size, IQ and it must have the ability to be shot remotely via USB with live view and full camera control from the manufacturers remote software.
When you take those factors into account your choices of camera become much more limited and it rules out the vast majority of the so called "flagships" as most have a body weight in excess of 1kg,
I couldn't even lift that with a 24-70 let alone a 70-200 fitted!!
Add to that the fact that a lot of camera's remote control abilities are tied to wifi and phone/tablet app's rather than usb and it narrows the field even further.
Then you factor in the type of subjects you shoot, is the camera and the range of lenses for it going to do what you want in that respect.

I started with a Nikon FM as a young man, went to Canon via Pentax for a DSLR, then to Fuji for the light weight X-Pro1 when I became more disabled, then Olympus as I got worse before ending up with Sony for FF.
During that time I had to change the subjects I shoot as being stuck in bed all the time doesn't give you much scope for wildlife,landscape or motorsports and now mainly shoot studio portraits of both people and pets with everything controlled from my bedside via USB and other remote methods.

The long and short of it is I have an A7r, its fantastic, does "most" of what I want and is as light as a feather as far as FF camera's go, but it doesn't have the remote capabilities that I need and that I had with the Olympus EM5ii, but that doesn't have the low light/high ISO performance or resolution I would like, so the Olympus kit is sold, the order in for an A7riii (A7rii still doesn't offer FULL remote control) and that will be it.
I haven't gone for it because its top of the range or a flagship camera but because its the one camera on the market that best meets my needs.

So I guess what I'm saying is that a D5 or 1DX etc with fast glass might be a top line camera to one person, but to others its about as useful as a couple of house bricks.
Judge gear by its ability to meet your needs rather than what manufacturers or the media tell you.
 
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I bought the D800 a few years ago, now own the D850. My reason for buying the D800 was mainly based on a couple of things, primarily it's excellent dynamic range and secondly on the lens lineup.

My reason for buying the D850 was different... I wanted the improved AF, liked the idea of the articulating screen and also the improvement in the resolution of the LCD screen to improve manual focusing.

When I first started out my decision was swayed by cost so I started out with a Pentax K10D.

Simon
 
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