Ackwardness when offering crit.

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It does Gary, but when you first start out, what you are happy with and post, may not be, and in my case certainly wasn't any good technically. Now I bin a helluva lot more than I used to.

I have never posted a pic for review. I'm my own worst critic and would like it to be perfect in my own eyes first, but more importantly I know the situation and what I was trying to achieve under the circumstances. The background may not be perfect, the focus and composition off, but getting the shot was worth the compromises. That doesn't make it a great shot, nor do I need to be told it's failings.

I guess if I did post such a shot, I would have an answer the criticism but it would be a rather pointless exercise. If I snatch a candid shot, the aperture, framing, iso, etc are all best guess. The background is in the lap of the gods.

I have had my wife suggest that some point and shoot snaps from other people were as good if not better than my pics of an event we attended recently. With criticism like that, who needs a photographic forum!

Graham
 
No, you are mistaken. First of all, it's not FEEDBACK you are offering here.

Okay, so what definition of 'feedback' are you using then? Looks very much like you can't take someone disagreeing with you from my point of view, which confirms my suspicions. If you can't take a contrary point of view, maybe you shouldn't post threads asking questions, or do you simply want everyone to agree with you?

You are doing the forums a royal disservice by putting such a negative spin on the offering of crit. You did the same thing in the motorbike thread. You clearly have an issue with contributors on this forum offering feedback, and you NEED taken to task on it. People should not be scared to offer crit, and your comments and attitude are only going to do one thing, stop people from contributing to the forum.

Actually, if you read my threads, I'm presenting a positive spin on offering criticism. I have no issue with people offering good positive feedback, but not crap, and I said as much in the thread you referenced. You may think that I'm doing the fourm a disservice, that's up to you, but to me I'm actually looking to improve the service. Any poster will so much more from one decent cricism than 50 superficial ones.
 
Okay, so what definition of 'feedback' are you using then? Looks very much like you can't take someone disagreeing with you from my point of view, which confirms my suspicions. If you can't take a contrary point of view, maybe you shouldn't post threads asking questions, or do you simply want everyone to agree with you?
Actually, if you read my threads, I'm presenting a positive spin on offering criticism. I have no issue with people offering good positive feedback, but not crap, and I said as much in the thread you referenced. You may think that I'm doing the fourm a disservice, that's up to you, but to me I'm actually looking to improve the service. Any poster will so much more from one decent cricism than 50 superficial ones.


Disagree away :) I am not going to / can't stop you. All I can do is try and ensure others are not put off buy your elitist opinions ;)

The long and short of it, the forum benefits from crit, however small. If you see said crit as a problem, try contributing more, try showing those of us less able how to do it - lead by example :)

In the mean time I will continue to offer crit as I see fit, in the hope that the original poster will appreciate my taking the time and making the effort to help.

Gary.
 
Dear oh dear. Way to go off point! The ORIGINAL POINT, which indeed everyone seems to have wondered from, as per usual, is that if you are going to post a photo, accept the crit that is offered, regardless of the background of said person!!! jeez! Like the OP is going on about, if someone offers crit on an image, don't excuse your way out of it by offering reasons such as "oh i didn't have the time". If however, and I accept that this is sometimes the case, not having the time is valid reason, then bloody well state it! IT'S NOT HARD! But please, for the love of god, don't use it as an excuse for taking a naff photo, if you don't state it originally.

People post images on here for crit. Quite simple really. But with no explanation, people will offer crit as they see the image. Regardless of ability on both sides. Now, I've offered crit to the entire spectrum of abilities on here, and likewise received it from both extremes, so don't drag me into this silly debate. The main point of this thread was lost ages ago. So please can we stick on point? Post an image once you are happy with it, and listen to the crit accordingly.
 
boys, boys, boys

just get some shorts on and go and roll around wrestling in the mud for a bit.

Stop bickering :p

;)
 
I'm already out, there be threads needing crit ;)

I'm not fond of your new sig banner m8 - I know photographers with over 30 years experience who could offer no more informed crit than the Bloggs' who've just picked up their first DSLR - sadly, they are all committee members at our camera club :bang: :lol:

The 'quality' of crit is very hard to judge too - even if you felt that a Pro had the edge on a newbie, a Pro in motorsport may have nothing to offer on the subject of Landscape

Anyone want to create a spreadsheet/graph to value crit??? How about...

Knowledge of subject v experience v knowledge of photography v ability to get helpful point across

Then someone can figure out whether this qualification should be self-professed or by judgement of a panel (don't get me started on how to judge if the panel has the ability to judge!)

Then if we divide people into A, B & C - anyone in the As who adds 'Nice shot' gets a weeks ban from TP, as does anyone from the Cs who offers comment on the appropriateness of blown areas, DoF or composition

Simples :D

Or, perhaps we can just offer crit as we see it and hope the OP doesn't argue back or take offence, and that others can see our point (whether they agree or not) without belittling us? :shrug:

DD
 
I'm not fond of your new sig banner m8 - I know photographers with over 30 years experience who could offer no more informed crit than the Bloggs' who've just picked up their first DSLR - sadly, they are all committee members at our camera club :bang: :lol:

The 'quality' of crit is very hard to judge too - even if you felt that a Pro had the edge on a newbie, a Pro in motorsport may have nothing to offer on the subject of Landscape

Anyone want to create a spreadsheet/graph to value crit??? How about...

Knowledge of subject v experience v knowledge of photography v ability to get helpful point across

Then someone can figure out whether this qualification should be self-professed or by judgement of a panel (don't get me started on how to judge if the panel has the ability to judge!)

Then if we divide people into A, B & C - anyone in the As who adds 'Nice shot' gets a weeks ban from TP, as does anyone from the Cs who offers comment on the appropriateness of blown areas, DoF or composition

Simples :D

Or, perhaps we can just offer crit as we see it and hope the OP doesn't argue back or take offence, and that others can see our point (whether they agree or not) without belittling us? :shrug:

DD

Updated :D :D :D
 

Better :thumbs:

Though there is a 'rule' in art that odd numbers are more attractive than even ones (which is why Ikea, M&S, Habitat, etc. usually sell vases & ornaments in threes!) - so I'd prefer... (note use of three ... there ;))


!!! or even !!!!! to your present !!!!

:lol:

DD
 
I don't mind giving criticism on here....but if it's a mixed bag I always point out parts I like as well as the bits that don't work.

I'm not afraid to say "this does absolutely nothing for me"....which is different from saying "this is complete and utter turd" :)
 
I make no apology for posting this article in full, it is in my opinion a good read.
My own thoughts on this subject is that most people when they consider criticism they think negative, however good criticism can and is both positive and negative. In my own experience it is far easier to give negative criticism than positive as i believe you do have to have a sound understanding of a subject to provide the positive critic.

Article.
How to give and receive criticism.

By Scott Berkun, September 2004.

Good feedback is rare. It can take a long time to find people who know how to provide useful criticism, instead of simply telling you all the things they think are “wrong” with you or whatever you’ve made. A good critic spends as much energy describing what something is, as well as what it isn’t. Good criticism serves one purpose: to give the creator of the work more perspective and help them make their next set of choices. Bad criticism uses the opportunity provided by someone else’s work to make the critic feel smart, superior or better about themselves: things that have nothing to do with helping the recipient of the critique (Or in the case of movie reviews, the reader of the critique). Given the difficultly of creative work, it would seem that giving and receiving useful feedback should be an important part of what designers, writers, programmers and others are taught to do. This essay attempts to serve that purpose.

Assumptions bad critics make
There are four fundamental assumptions bad critics make:

1.There is one universal and objective measure of how good and bad anything is.
2.That the critic is in sole possession of the skill for making these measurements.
3.Anyone that doesn’t possess this skill (including the creator of the work) is an idiot and should be ridiculed.
4.That valid criticisms can and should always be resolved.
Let’s work with these one at a time. First, the idea of objective measures runs against everything we know about the history of man made things. To objectively measure how good and bad anything is would require not only that the universe is objective, but that the people in it are objective. There is no film, book, software, website, or album that is universally liked by everyone (including those who have the word critic in their job title). Some people may be more informed or knowledgeable than others, but this doesn’t make their opinions objective.

More important perhaps is the idea of measurement. To measure how good or bad something is requires knowledge about the intent of what the thing is trying to do. If you show me a frying pan that you’ve made, and I criticize it for not playing MP3 files, there’s a mismatch of intention in what we’re trying to measure and evaluate. Unless the intention of the work is clear to everyone “I want to make omelets”, good criticism is impossible. There are an infinite number of intentions and goals in the universe, and if two people can’t agree on what the creators intentions are, real communication is impossible. It might be fair to say that the intentions of a work should be transparent in the work itself: A toaster oven should look vaguely like something that can receive slices of bread. But in the case where the intentions aren’t clear, critics have a choice: they can trust the creator and invest more energy trying to sort out what the intentions are, or they can assume the worst about those intentions and begin criticizing what they don’t understand.

Second, believing that one person has sole possession of good perspective is a contradiction in terms. Good perspective by definition means the recognition of how many alternatively valuable perspectives there are on any matter. Two smart knowledgeable people might both love the new super-thin I-mac design or the recently U.S. released film Hero, but for entirely different and non-overlapping reasons. Good criticism generally comes with some degree of humility and respect for the possibility of other equally valid points of view. The better the critic, the more holistic their sense of how their own perspectives and tastes fit into the diverse pool of informed opinion of others.

Third, respect and ridicule don’t mix well. To offer good criticism must be an act of respect: an act of communication with the intention of helping the other person do better work, or understand their work better. If you are shaping sentences and remarks to be snide, snarky, or sarcastic, the intention of being helpful is unlikely to be served (Unless you know the recipient of the criticisms well enough to be comfortable razzing or joking with them about their work). It’s entirely possible to offer criticism, commentary and advice without any negative energy attached: it’s just so rare that we see it done properly that most of us don’t realize it’s possible, much less more effective.

Lastly, finding a valid criticism doesn’t mean that it can be fixed or is worth fixing. In many situations responding to one kind of criticism will just make the design or the work vulnerable to another kind of criticism. A film or essay that is dark and brooding could be made lighter and funnier, but then another critic could say "it wasn’t dark and brooding enough". And in some cases, fixing a particular problem will cause other problems that are worse. Until the creator explores the alternatives presented by feedback, it’s impossible to know whether responding to a piece of criticism is possible, much less desirable.

Collectively, this means that criticizing and giving feedback should be a thoughtful activity. If you’re flippant, arrogant, dismissive, curt or annoyed while giving feedback, you’re probably making one of the four assumptions above and not giving very good criticism.


How to give critical feedback
The verb criticize, once a neutral word somewhere between praise and censure, is now mainly used in a negative sense. To say “He criticized me for being so friendly” generally means something different and less positive than “He made me think about the possible effects of being so friendly”.

crit•i•cal (adj.)
1. Inclined to judge severely and find fault.
2. Characterized by careful, exact evaluation and judgment: a critical reading.

Now I’m not saying that finding fault isn’t useful. On the contrary, it’s very important. It’s just that of equal importance in understanding the value of a design, algorithm, script, or film is to know what isn’t broken, or god forbid, what’s actually done brilliantly. What you want to do when you are offering criticism is to live up to the second definition listed above: Careful evaluation and judgment. To do this you need to do the following:

•Before you speak, know the goals: What problem is the work trying to solve? What are the goals? If you don’t know the intention of the work it’s very difficult to offer careful evaluation and judgment. Remember the frying pan? If I don’t know what the creator is trying to achieve, how can I possibly offer any commentary that’s of value? Now it should be the creators job to inform me of what they’re trying to do, or tell me that they think it should be self-evident in the work, but if they don’t there’s not much harm in me asking “What are you trying to accomplish here?”, and it will save everyone much time and grief. If the problem is at the level of intention, discussion will ensue at that level instead of trying (and failing) to sort out intentions at the level of specific design choices.
•Good and bad, is not the same as what you like or don’t like. You must shatter the idea that anything you like is good, and anything you don’t is bad. If you can’t separate your personal preferences from more abstract analysis of a kind of work, then you will rarely provide much useful feedback: criticism is not about you. It’s about the work you are viewing and the person that made it. Your personal preferences only get in the way of providing the work (and its maker or possible consumers) with useful information. Learn to see the good and respectable attributes in work you do not like: they are there if you let yourself see them. For example: a good film review should evaluate the film’s merits somewhat independently from the reviewers personal tastes. It should be possible to read a review about a film the reviewer didn’t like, but be inclined to see it anyway based on the observations he made about it’s content, style, and form.
•Talk as much about what it is, as what it isn’t. While it can be more efficient to focus on problems and what’s broken, rather than what’s good and working, if the creator can’t see both, there’s not much hope of their next choices being good ones. Make sure you spend as much energy helping them to see and keep the strong parts of what they’ve done as you help them see the weaker and more questionable parts.
•Try the PNP sandwich (positive negative positive): I don’t like this idea much, but I think it can be a good one (see what I did there?) for dealing with people sensitive or new to receiving criticism. The idea is simple: find a way to alternate your feedback. Find something positive, then find something negative, then find another positive thing. It’s an easy way to develop trust and help people become comfortable with hearing other people’s opinion. I don’t like it because it has a touchy-feely vibe and it can lead to pretension and insincerity. However I have seen it work as a way to get strangers to warm up to each other, and eventually grow out of this little pattern of behavior.
Receiving critical feedback
It’s much harder to receive criticism than to give it. By the time most people make it through college there have been so many bad experiences with receiving feedback, especially on creative work, that they tend to avoid it or ignore it. Nothing can be worse: feedback is essential to developing ideas, and if the project involves a team in any way, the dialog and communication that falls out of feedback is essential. Anyone that makes anything must find ways to not only obtain feedback, but to master the skills of milking it for all it’s worth.

•Shut up. Just shut up and listen. Creators often fall into the trap of speaking for their work, trying to use words to defend things that should be in the design. This is a form of denial: The work has to speak for itself. Even if only for a few minutes, let the prototype or draft be its own thing, and stand on its own. If you respond right away to (or perhaps interrupt) every point made in a critique, you can’t possibly be thinking about what’s being said to you. Thinking takes time. Try to talk as little as possible, and let the time be used for critique, not for defense. If you don’t trust the people critiquing you to be fair, that’s a problem best solved by defining sound ground rules (See below), or by investing more in finding better critique partners.
•Ask clarifying questions. Again, avoid filling the conversation with defensive chatter. Instead respond to questions by trying to sort out any ambiguities or points you don’t agree with by getting whoever is critiquing to restate their point. “When you say the style in my design is sloppy, do you mean that the lines aren’t sharp, or that the composition isn’t balanced quite right? Can you show me exactly what you mean?” By asking clarifying questions you allow yourself time to decide if you agree with the criticism or not by working with the other person to understand their point/question better. It makes the critique into a dialog, which is what it should be, and not a courtroom trial.
•Refer back to the goals. If you’re not getting what you want from the critique, provide some goals for the work that you’re trying to achieve. If you’re working on a project this should be easy: the goals for a given design should derive from the project goals. Ask whoever is giving you feedback to do so in terms of those goals or your derivations of them. Then whenever the conversation goes astray, you can refer back to the goals and set things in a useful direction again.
•Ask for what changes you can make that will satisfy the criticism. The goal of criticism is not to learn every nuance about a design’s weaknesses: its to know enough about a design so that the designer can make it better. If you agree with a criticism, but don’t see a path to improvement, ask for one. Turn the question back around on the person who made the comment. “Good point. So do you see anything I can do to improve on that?” Often they won’t have anything to say: critiquing is not the same as creating. But by asking the question you do move the conversation forward into thinking about future action, instead of staying stuck in criticism mode.
Ground Rules
•Take control of your feedback process. Feedback is not something that happens to you: it should be something you make happen. If you wait for feedback to come to you, it tends to be less positive and supportive than if you seek it out. If you walk into someone’s office and say “hey, can I have 5 minutes of your time to look at something?” you are taking control. You put yourself in the driver’s seat of the process, and can frame and shape the criticism you get however you want. But if you wait and wait and wait until deadlines approach, you have less and less control over how feedback will be given to you. It will have more edge to it and will tend to serve others more than serve you.
•Pick your partners. Who do you get the best feedback from? It’s probably not the person who loves everything you do. If you don’t think you get good feedback from anyone, part of the problem might be you haven’t taken control of the process. Be more specific about what kinds of criticism you need, and go to people and ask for it. If you find a good source, cherish it, and reward them for it. Much of what a good mentor does is provide good, consistent, honest feedback. If you can get this from a peer or a manager find ways to cultivate and reward it. Look for people outside of your company or organization that might be willing to form a peer review group: meet once a week/month over coffee and show each other your work.
•Strive to hear it all, informally and early. The sooner you hear a question or criticism of something you’ve created, the greater your ability to do something about it before it’s finished. If there is any kind of formal review or feedback process (e.g. a spec review or group critique) make it your job to find out what opinions there are of what you’re doing well before it happens. This can be as simple as going to door to door and showing sketches, and asking for a few quick comments. Give yourself the opportunity to benefit early from other perspectives and think things through. But do know how much feedback you can handle: you don’t want your work driven by other people’s opinions, but you do want to give yourself the opportunity to benefit from them.

Regards and best wishes to all.

Richard.
 
The 'quality' of crit is very hard to judge too - even if you felt that a Pro had the edge on a newbie, a Pro in motorsport may have nothing to offer on the subject of Landscape

There are two aspects of criticism.

One is the thought itself, and whether that is correct or not depends on the nature of the criticism, but as it's invaribaly subjective you can say one person's thoughts are better than anothers. You can respect the thoughts one more than another though.

The second part, and this is the part I have issue with, is how the criticism is conveyed. Think back to school and how you were expected to crit a piece in English lessons. The same criteria should be in place when offer criticism to other's work. Criticism requires a thought out approach, not one liners. If some thing doesn't 'work', why not? The critic may not be able to offer any solutions as to how to improve the shot, either because they lack the knowledge themselves or because other factors that were out of control of the photographer have affected the image, but that should stop people from critiquing properly.

Maybe there's been some confusion and Gary et al think that I've a problem with others having a certain view of an image. I haven't, I couldn't give a monkeys what other people think of some other people's work. What I do have a problem with, is when people post poorly expressed thoughts, often in a rude or lazy way, and then throw their arms up when the OP doesn't take the criticism well.
 
What I do have a problem with, is when people post poorly expressed thoughts

Ironic.

Anyway, lead by example :) You keep banging on about how one should crit, how about you show us all? There are about 100 threads a day all needing a reply. I try and help on a shedload of them. How about you join in and show us all how to do it?

And don't give the crit haters even more excuses. One line, or a book - it does not matter. If someone TAKES THE TIME to TRY AND HELP the original poster, then the original poster should not be a rude ****, and should instead say thanks. Don't expect every member here to be a member of your Expert Crit Brigade, and don't think for one second that because they can't offer "expertly" thought out crit, that they deserve abuse and dummy spitting antics thrown at them.

Gary.
 
A solution. NorthernNikon, the red badge is yours.

critx.jpg


What I suggest is, we all grab an appropriate badge, stick it on our avatar, and be done with it!!! :D I have my eye test results shortly, will pick an appropriate stamp then :)

Gary.
 
What I do have a problem with, is when people post poorly expressed thoughts, often in a rude or lazy way, and then throw their arms up when the OP doesn't take the criticism well.

This behavior does surface here from time to time and I really dislike it.

I do see rude and obnoxious comments that are dished out in the name of honesty that are nothing more than whiney self elevative digs or complaints.

Whether or not the time is taking by someone, if they behave as such, they are a poor critic and need to shape up and learn some more bo-staff skills if they truley wish to help.

Be honest, but polite. Nowt else, job done :)

Sums it up nicely mate.

Some of the biggest turning points for me have been a result from good, hard criticism and they have been offered in a thoughtful, polite and thorough manner.
I believe that experience on the subject helps but is not always necessary to see the forest for the trees kinda deal.
It really depends on your expectations when posting, asking for and receiving criticism.

Gary is a bloody kind chap, who wants nothing but to help and give back what he feels has been offered to him over the years, he is of the moral fibre that photography is for everyone and there's no reason why any of us can't enjoy it.

Some folk just make it harder/impossible to do so and it's a pain in the arse for those trying to help out.
 
A solution. NorthernNikon, the red badge is yours.


What I suggest is, we all grab an appropriate badge, stick it on our avatar, and be done with it!!! :D I have my eye test results shortly, will pick an appropriate stamp then :)

Gary.


Since you have 'edit' ticked, I thought I have a play



This will do me fine.
 

Just because you struggle to understand a concept doesn't mean that it was necessarily poorly expressed.

Anyway, lead by example :) You keep banging on about how one should crit, how about you show us all? There are about 100 threads a day all needing a reply. I try and help on a shedload of them. How about you join in and show us all how to do it?

I don't need to go out and bat for England to able be to express an opinion on the fact that Pietersen gave his wickets away far too cheaply. You might just want to go and look the term Devil's advocate up when you have a minute.

And don't give the crit haters even more excuses. One line, or a book - it does not matter. If someone TAKES THE TIME to TRY AND HELP the original poster, then the original poster should not be a rude ****, and should instead say thanks. Don't expect every member here to be a member of your Expert Crit Brigade, and don't think for one second that because they can't offer "expertly" thought out crit, that they deserve abuse and dummy spitting antics thrown at them.

So, people who offer criticism on here have no faults? None of them are ever rude without provocation? It's only helpful if it actually helps, just making the effort isn't enough. You're giving those who write poor and lazy criticism an excuse, carte blanche to write what they want because the OP can never respond in any way other than positively because otherwise they're 'spitting the dummy' or being ungrateful. As I alluded to before, when it comes to criticism, quality is by far and away better then quantity.

It's a real shame that you don't seem to read the responses I write. If you had, you would have seen that I say a school child knows how to write a critique, and there's nothing 'expert' about them.

The real irony is the fact that you just can't accept someone taking a contrary position to your own. You post an open question into the forum about people unable to take criticism and yet when someone puts forward an alternative view to your own it's your toys that are thrown from the pram as you appoint yourself Witchhunter General to, and I quote "take you to task", referring to me.
 

Fine, don't lead by example. Just don't shoot others down for contributing to the forum a hell of a lot more as a result ;)

We all know there are a few who offer nasty crit aimed to bait the OP. Those guys are always dealt with by the mods.

There are guys who might take less time than they should with crit too (myself included), but still offer it as help. Those are the guys you are taking cheap pot shots at, and that is why you deserve taken to task. You are trying to stop people offering crit unless they conform to your (frankly ****) rulebook. It's absolute nonsense, you are wrong in every possible way. You, quite simply, need to accept that not everyone wants to or can crit in the way you are suggesting. This does not provide an excuse for dummy spitting morons to take the hump. Help was offered, and thanks should be offered in return.

Gary.
 
Deep joy,another spat.
 
When I post a photo it's because I want constructive crit, obviously I don't like people saying "I don't like it" but I do like people saying "I don't like it because ......" I want to improve and having people give guidance is the best way to do so IMO.

If you don't want people to give their opinion on your photo's don't put them on here! simples :)
 
When I post a photo it's because I want constructive crit, obviously I don't like people saying "I don't like it" but I do like people saying "I don't like it because ......" I want to improve and having people give guidance is the best way to do so IMO.

If you don't want people to give their opinion on your photo's don't put them on here! simples :)



Hell nooooooooo!!!!!!! Don't take that as crit. I reckon we need to see qualifications, and after all crit brigade members are vetted, there should be a word count on each and every reply! Then we submit it to the grand master for approval, just to make sure it is truly worthy of being posted...

Damn, we could run a course for noobs, a series of tests designed to check whether or not they are suitable for forum membership. Fine, they might be able to take a good photo, but can they *really* have an opinion on a photo and string said opinion over 100 lines? Time will tell! :D

Gary.
 
This is a photographic community website. "Great shot" comments are as valid as multi-paragraph critiques. This is not Central St. Martin's or the Royal Academy of Arts. No one is owed a qualified crit on this site. They put their photos online for people to view, they have to deal with the consequences of that. Clearly there is always going to be contentious opinion and often people making comments just to troll or get someone's back up but that will be dealt with, and equally often people are going to spit the dummy on a reasonable (or unreasonable) crit. I think as a community, we'll just deal with that as we have done and carry on business as usual.
 
Fine, don't lead by example. Just don't shoot others down for contributing to the forum a hell of a lot more as a result ;)

So you can only contribute be criticising photos now? not by offering help and advice in other boards? Thanks for the heads up on that one, I obviously missed that announcement when the mods sent it out.

We all know there are a few who offer nasty crit aimed to bait the OP. Those guys are always dealt with by the mods.

Well at last we have an admission that the sun doesn't always shine out of the nether regions of those that offer criticism.

There are guys who might take less time than they should with crit too (myself included), but still offer it as help. Those are the guys you are taking cheap pot shots at, and that is why you deserve taken to task. You are trying to stop people offering crit unless they conform to your (frankly ****) rulebook. It's absolute nonsense, you are wrong in every possible way. You, quite simply, need to accept that not everyone wants to or can crit in the way you are suggesting. This does not provide an excuse for dummy spitting morons to take the hump. Help was offered, and thanks should be offered in return.

And what "rule book" is this then? I most certainly am not trying to stop people from posting criticism , I just trying to improve the quality of it. People can post whatever they want, both in criticism but also in response. All my point is that the issue that you are so up in arms about is not solely down to those who post photos. There is responsibilty on both sides but you're arguing to absolve the critics from all responsibility on their side and that clearly is not a healthy position to be in, especially when the feedback isn't positive.
 
This is a photographic community website. "Great shot" comments are as valid as multi-paragraph critiques. This is not Central St. Martin's or the Royal Academy of Arts.

Well that depends entirely on the thread. If the post is just 'show and tell' then the "great shot" comments are fine. If the thread is asking for criticism then the post is a waste of bandwidth. If you think it's a 'great shot' then at least put five more minutes into saying why. It doesn't have to be a 3000 word dissertation, but an explanation of why you think the shot is great helps the photographer whereas merely stating that you like it doesn't.
 
And what "rule book" is this then? I most certainly am not trying to stop people from posting criticism , I just trying to improve the quality of it. People can post whatever they want, both in criticism but also in response. All my point is that the issue that you are so up in arms about is not solely down to those who post photos. There is responsibilty on both sides but you're arguing to absolve the critics from all responsibility on their side and that clearly is not a healthy position to be in, especially when the feedback isn't positive.


It's a non issue. Idiots who troll in crit request threads get dealt with. The others who reply with crit, however little they put into it, deserves thanks. You can scream all day long about increasing the quality of the crit, and it will fall on deaf ears. People don't have the time, or the inclination to spend god knows how long replying with a response worthy of newspaper publishing. Welcome to the internet, short and sweet. The home of one liners.

My only issue with your stance, as I have said, is the negative spin you are putting on THOSE of us who reply with short but honest answers. The exact stance you WRONGLY took in the motorbike thread.

Gary.
 
Well that depends entirely on the thread. If the post is just 'show and tell' then the "great shot" comments are fine. If the thread is asking for criticism then the post is a waste of bandwidth. If you think it's a 'great shot' then at least put five more minutes into saying why. It doesn't have to be a 3000 word dissertation, but an explanation of why you think the shot is great helps the photographer whereas merely stating that you like it doesn't.

[PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] :)

The number of times I have seen people say that "Great Shot" is more welcome than having the photo ignored is staggering. People love to be told their work is great, even when they are fishing for crit. People do NOT have the time, period. The reply is STILL valuable, it is a confidence booster, and helps encourage the original poster to take more photos.

Gary.
 
My only issue with your stance, as I have said, is the negative spin you are putting on THOSE of us who reply with short but honest answers. The exact stance you WRONGLY took in the motorbike thread.

LOL If the first three responses in that thread is the type of criticism you're happy with then you're welcome to it.
 
Boring...................................... we all know this is going to keep going round in circles.
 
LOL If the first three responses in that thread is the type of criticism you're happy with then you're welcome to it.

The photo was shoddy. The crit was short and harsh, but on the money. He needed to be told, he was told. Yes, it could have been worded better (like everything), but tough titties! We are grown ups, and when we post a photo for crit, we have to accept that some harsh words might flow. He simply should have said thanks due to the fact that they DID take the time to point out the error.

Gary.
 
as my day job is a 3D artist, i take and give crit all day long

i'm a very black + white person when it come's to c+c, so may seem harsh but i've always gone by the work of roy walker : say what you see
 
how the hell can we get into an argument about critique :shake:
 
[PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] :)

The number of times I have seen people say that "Great Shot" is more welcome than having the photo ignored is staggering. People love to be told their work is great, even when they are fishing for crit. People do NOT have the time, period. The reply is STILL valuable, it is a confidence booster, and helps encourage the original poster to take more photos.

Really? People don't the time to expand "Great shot!" into "Great shot, the model's pose is striking and the hard lighting really emphasises it."?

It's not about massaging egos, or at least it shouldn't be, it's about giving informed opinion to help others improve their work. 'Great shot!' will never improve anyone's work, ever because if they don't know why the shot is great they can't replicate it in their next shot or the one after that.
 
Really? People don't the time to expand "Great shot!" into "Great shot, the model's pose is striking and the hard lighting really emphasises it."?

It's not about massaging egos, or at least it shouldn't be, it's about giving informed opinion to help others improve their work. 'Great shot!' will never improve anyone's work, ever because if they don't know why the shot is great they can't replicate it in their next shot or the one after that.

I again call [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER]. When I was a newcomer, with absolutely no clue how to use the camera, I would post a few photos. When I got the reply "Great Shot", it made me feel I was doing something I could get good at. I was inspired by the people who seemed to enjoy my work. I was not fussed really whether they thought it was great due to the lighting, or great for X number of other reasons. I was just quite simply, happy.

There is a time and a place for Great Shot, and it deserves a small thankyou each and every time it is said.

Gary.
 
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