Action pics, more luck than judgement?

gibtheo

gibtheo

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Steven
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OK guys, saying this a bit tongue in cheek but I think it's interesting.

A friend of mine likes to try to wind me up by telling me I was lucky every time I show him a decent action shot of football or rugby.

I started thinking, there probably is some truth to his comments though. I suppose once you have a decent level of skill using a camera, good action pics possibly do come down to a bit of luck. OK you choose your position but aside from that you are limited to what happens in your field of view with the equipment you have.

Do you think that even the 'best' sports photographers are still relying on luck to get good action images?
 
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After mastering technique, gear, and after acquiring enough experience, one has
just started to explore the last element of the sport shooting equation: luck!

LUCK IS EVERYTHING!

With all the pre cited prerequisites on hand, one still does not control the action to
come in a place, a time, an event.

If one could control being at a right angle to an interesting action happening at the
right time and in the right conditions, this one would not need luck and would be the
best and only photographer on that given location. You can think, deduct the rest…

LUCK IS EVERYTHING! …that give a chance, like a lotto ticket, to any/everyone!
 
I think the Gary Player quote "The harder you work, the luckier you get." would apply to this.

Yes there is luck involved but the best sports photographer use their knowledge to put themselves in the right places and reduce the odds.

If you read the views of a Press assocation sports photographer you can find out how he worked during the rugby world cup to "be lucky"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-34656758

(Thanks to cjevans in this thread https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/bbc-photographer-on-the-rugby-world-cup.606739/ )
 
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There's often an element of luck but that's very often a result of experience and planning. Having a reasonable idea as to where the action is likely to happen and being there comes under the experience and planning banner but actually having something interesting occur there is down to luck.
 
You can do a lot to maximise the opportunities that come your way during a game - good choice of spec, knowing which way the light is falling, getting good backgrounds etc - but there's bound to be a huge amount of luck involved on any given day. No-one knows at which end goals or tries will be scored, which way the goalscorer runs to celebrate or whether he is going to get buried under a mass of bodies.

I was with another photographer today at the Everton v Sunderland game. We changed our initial location just before the kick off to avoid being in a mass of other togs. Today we lucked out and the three guys in our pit all got great coverage of the last two Everton goals. On another day we might have got nothing at all. Pure luck of the drawer either way.

Having said that, the very best photographers with the big specialist agencies do seem to have the knack of making the best of their luck and doing it time and time again. These guys get the big games for a reason.
 
Sideshow Alvie said:
You can do a lot to maximise the opportunities that come your way during a game - good choice of spec, knowing which way the light is falling, getting good backgrounds etc - but there's bound to be a huge amount of luck involved on any given day. No-one knows at which end goals or tries will be scored, which way the goalscorer runs to celebrate or whether he is going to get buried under a mass of bodies.
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:plus1:

Its a mixture of both judgement and luck, to be in the right place with the light etc that you have judged and luck to have the action happen perfectly in the right place on the pitch for you to get the shot no one else will have.
 
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You make your own luck..

If I get a great shot of a goal.. an overhead kick into top corner.. is that luck? I would never have got it sat at home watching coronation street..So I put myself in that position.. I pointed my camera in the right place..

I photogrpahed basketball this afternoon.. I got some great shots.. I could have sat anywhere and got great shots.. how is that luck?

Anyone who says its luck or luck is important is an idiot who doesnt know what he is talking about... you can apply the same logic to.. that was lucky i decided to be a photographer.. that was lucky i was born in europe.. that was lucky I am not blind.. Rubish.. you make your own luck if thats what you want to call it... but the day you decide you need to be lucky then you should pack it in..
 
never go to a football match hoping your lucky... if you go thinking you need luck to get good pictures then your better not going in...... that's my point plain and simple...
 
sk66 said:
The "luck" is that something actually happened that makes a great picture... the rest is skill/knowledge.
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What happens hapens.. if its a boring 0-0 game then thats what it is.. if its a 5-5 thriller then thats what it is.. its not luck.. you went to a 0-0 game wiht nothing interesting happening and you photogrpahed it... for it to be interesting you would need to be at another game thats 5-5 :)
 
KIPAX said:
What happens hapens.. if its a boring 0-0 game then thats what it is.. if its a 5-5 thriller then thats what it is.. its not luck.. you went to a 0-0 game wiht nothing interesting happening and you photogrpahed it... for it to be interesting you would need to be at another game thats 5-5 :)
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But if you went to a 5-5 game then that was luck you being there or picked that match, commissioned etc. for it out of the hundreds of games that is going on at the same time across the country, we all have our own definition of luck at the end of the day and this is a topic that can be agreed and disagreed for years.
 
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Joeturner11 said:
But if went to a 5-5 game then that was luck you being there or picked that match,.
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But thats my point.. it isnt luck that you went to that match... unless you apply the same theory to everyhting... was it luck you where born in england.. was it luck you where born? was it luck you found photogrpahy.. was it luck you like sports.. you can apply the same logic to your whole life and change your name to lucky :)
 
'You make your own luck' - I'm amazed it took that long before someone made that comment.

I don't generally believe in luck, I believe that you make your own 'luck', whether that be a hunch based on experience or knowlege or just a desire of curiosity - this is just for life in general. In terms of taking pictures I believe it is about knowing your subject, whether that is birds (feathered ones) or sport or the light for landscapes etched . You may have to sit for a while to capture what you are after but in your head you know you have the information and the shot will come eventually. Skill with the camera is just as important.

Just my outlook on life.
 
KIPAX said:
But thats my point.. it isnt luck that you went to that match... unless you apply the same theory to everyhting... was it luck you where born in england.. was it luck you where born? was it luck you found photography.. was it luck you like sports.. you can apply the same logic to your whole life and change your name to lucky :)
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Luck is just another word for chance, and subjects of chance are beyond the observer's control; for example, did you plan to be born in England or at all? Did you plan going to that match knowing it was going to be an interesting 5-5 or dull 0-0? I certainly didn't plan to be diabetic or have 1 child with autism and 1 with dyspraxia, some would consider that bad luck.

Things are generally either planned or not, there are many who believe that their entire life is pre-planned by a divine entity and don't believe in chance or luck at all, everything happens for a reason. Whereas others believe that their life is full of random chance events (some good, some not) and they gain experience how to deal with these events as they arise, accepting that the majority of things are beyond their control.

So going back to the topic, you cannot guarantee the outcome of a match, or that the players will face you during the best play of the match or run towards you afterwards. However experience will tell you that they will be facing you many other times during that match, that you will get some decent shots even if you couldn't get "The One" and that quite often there isn't such a thing as "The One" anyway. So yes, there is definitely an element of chance/luck in sports photography, and everyday life.
 
I've spent many hours trying to get a pic of a bald eagle snatching a fish head on. This is about as close as I've come so far...

22060800653_fe829377d3_z.jpg


I'll take a little luck about now...
 
xx
 
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One of the most famous iconic boxing pictures is ali standing over foreman.. the photogrpahers at this side of the ring got perfect shot.. the photogrpahers at the other side got bad shots... how did they allocate who went where.. is it luck.. or just a case of hey. this is where i am .. i will photogrpah whatever happens


anyway to reitterate my point before too many people go to bed crying.... If you go to cover a football matching hoping for or depending on luck then you should find soemthing else to do... just my opinion of course :)
 
One more point of view.

there are great photogrpahers out there doing sport.. there are photogrpahers I aspire to and I am sure we all know there are great sports photographers.. we also know there are photogrpahers who will probably never sell a pic..

Are people suggesting that the ones at the top of the tree who are considered top quality sports photogrpahers are just lucky ????
 
sk66 said:
I've spent many hours trying to get a pic of a bald eagle snatching a fish head on. This is about as close as I've come so far...

22060800653_fe829377d3_z.jpg


I'll take a little luck about now...
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You dont need luck, you need good judgement, you sat the wrong side of the lake, YOU ALONE made that choice
 
KIPAX said:
You make your own luck..

If I get a great shot of a goal.. an overhead kick into top corner.. is that luck? I would never have got it sat at home watching coronation street..So I put myself in that position.. I pointed my camera in the right place..

I photogrpahed basketball this afternoon.. I got some great shots.. I could have sat anywhere and got great shots.. how is that luck?

Anyone who says its luck or luck is important is an idiot who doesnt know what he is talking about... you can apply the same logic to.. that was lucky i decided to be a photographer.. that was lucky i was born in europe.. that was lucky I am not blind.. Rubish.. you make your own luck if thats what you want to call it... but the day you decide you need to be lucky then you should pack it in..
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Luck/chance plays a part in everything we do - I recall your Colne GP winner crossing the finish line last year was obscured by a motorcycle commissaire - right place, right time, right light, right settings but by chance a motorbike blocked your shot.............of course you need to be out there in the right spot but odd things can happen at the most critical moments.
 
KIPAX said:
One of the most famous iconic boxing pictures is ali standing over foreman.. the photogrpahers at this side of the ring got perfect shot.. the photogrpahers at the other side got bad shots... how did they allocate who went where.. is it luck.. or just a case of hey. this is where i am .. i will photogrpah whatever happens
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The last point is the conclusion, all we can ever do is photograph what we can from where we are, that's acceptance. How do you think people chose which side of the ring to stand? Did those with more experience know the outcome of the fight and which way it was going to happen before it started? Or did they pick a spot and think "We'll see what happens?"


KIPAX said:
Are people suggesting that the ones at the top of the tree who are considered top quality sports photogrpahers are just lucky ????
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I don't think anyone has said "just lucky" but rather discussing the element it plays in what we do.


Gary Coyle said:
You dont need luck, you need good judgement, you sat the wrong side of the lake, YOU ALONE made that choice
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So if he had better judgement he would've sat the other side many hours earlier with the knowledge that the eagle was going to come down that direction?

So basically, what some are saying is that they can predict the future and can control what other people do? If I had those powers I probably wouldn't be a photographer (or at least be very rich by doing it).
 
Being there at that particular ("decisive") moment is lucky. Perfect sunset, sport drama, photojournalistic incident... Right place, right time, right part of the pitch :). But once luck has played its part, it's then up to us as photographers to *do* something photographically with that situation. That's where experience, skill and knowledge come in.

"Luck is one of the cardinal creative forces, and the photographer has unique equipment for collaborating with it". James Agee
 
In my opinion getting great photos involves a lot of things coming together - most are in the photographer's control (skill) but some aren't (luck). What a good photographer can do though is to stack the odds more in their favour on the luck part. There are also great photographers that may be in the 'wrong' place for the goal or the try but find some way of still getting a great image - I know I'm contradicting myself a little but those people are few and far between. Most of us still rely on an element of luck to get what we would consider to be a great shot.
 
Agree 100%. You can get everything right on any given day but 'luck' will be the random final element which can make or break the pic, even something as daft as the player's eyes being shut in what would otherwise be a perfect shot or a steward popping up out of nowhere.
The best guys have good/bad luck like the rest of us, especially at events where they're locked in one position for the whole game and everything happens at the 'wrong' end.
 
To turn the question around, would I be 'unlucky' if I didn't get any good shots, or would you put that down to lack of experience?
 
Ok this is my take on the debate!, I totally agree with Kipax in "you make you're own "Luck" in inverted commas!.

Knowledge of your given subject is paramount to getting a decent image in the first place, then positioning is down to either getting there early, cos you know everyone else knows the score!, or, being placed in a poor area where you will, to a certain extent rely on hope (luck?), if the usual avenues of action etc fall down.
Being in the "right" spot is in my business paramount, however, external forces are also at hand, (assistant referees / warming up subs / security staff etc), I have no control over these so I have to work round them using all I've learnt in the past, getting editorial use of pics under these circumstances is not luck! this is where experience kicks in.

Here's an example from my game on Saturday! was I unlucky to be on the opposite side of the goal?

My Friend Ryan Browns image for Reuters in the Times

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/football/article4601845.ece

my take on the exact same image
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...I0000tE44.quwTLo/C0000Xobzr97jA3A&h=uAQE4crzC
 
If you regularly fail to get good shots then it's much more likely to be down to lack of experience/skill/preparation than luck. Someone who has none of these things will get lucky every once in a while but that doesn't make them a good photographer. Gary Player got it right with his famous quote. Moreover you can draw analogies between golf and photography - low handicappers will always outplay mid-high handicappers over the long run but that doesn't mean they will win every hole played. The guys at the top of the photographic ladder are our equivalent of scratch golfers.
 
Luck good and bad will happen anyway.

However a sports or any other photographer, if he is any good at all, will understand the normal flows of the game and the best places to pitch his claim. He will know how the light will move and change during the session. He will also recognise the build up to important phases and the possible outcomes. In other words he will become an "expert' in his field.
Going alongside chance and luck is reducing the unexpected by the use of foreknowledge. A line out in rugby can only legally proceed in a set way,and the possibilities become fewer still as soon as the ball is thrown. As a result ther are a large number of expert linout shots, taken by people who understand both the game and the rules.
The same is rtue of every phase of every game. And specialists abound.
Anticipation will always produce sucessful shots. And top up the bank balance.
That freeky exceptional front page headliner is perhaps 50% or more luck and the rest anticipation.
 
Theres absolutly no such thing as luck, luck would be winning the lottery withut buying a ticket, ie it wont happen, terms like you lucky so and so are b*****ks, if you dont (through experience or knowledge) put yourself in the right place at the right time then you simply wont ever be in a position to get that "lucky" capture, being on the ball and concentrating hard plays a massive part, luck doesnt exist so cant play a part.
 
Well for what it's worth this is my take on it
You make your luck by using your knowledge of the game, teams and ground when you decide where to plonk yourself
With regards to Graham v Ryan's pic at hillsbrough I think Graham's is better but would never get used as Ryan's are already paid for
But that's another argument
 
I think there are too many different definitions of luck on here, how about using the word chance instead?

Would you say there's a degree of chance in sports photography?
 
Toggerman said:
I think there are too many different definitions of luck on here, how about using the word chance instead?

Would you say there's a degree of chance in sports photography?
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Nope, in this context, same thing, different spelling.
 
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Steven, tell your mate he's lucky you don't poke him in the eye for making stupid comments! Knowing the sport well and knowing your camera well are all part of creating good if not great images. You could say you were unlucky to be chimping and so missing a perfect shot, but that's poor skills, not luck. Good skills, good timing, good positioning are what achieve great images. I don't think anyone could say Lewis Hamilton is 'lucky' to be world champion. That would be nonsense. To re-quote the Gary Player quote "The harder you work, the luckier you get."
 
I'm very new to taking sports pics so each time I shoot my experience bank grows exponentially and I'm learning how to look for a better sho each time.

Having said that some of my personal favourite images have relied on a large dose of luck, I've put the camera into hi-speed shooting mode and hoped one of the images works out - to me that's luck.

I also think the right kit is a big part of It too - I'd love an F2.8 zoom LOl
 
Gsrai said:
I'm very new to taking sports pics so each time I shoot my experience bank grows exponentially and I'm learning how to look for a better sho each time.

Having said that some of my personal favourite images have relied on a large dose of luck, I've put the camera into hi-speed shooting mode and hoped one of the images works out - to me that's luck.

I also think the right kit is a big part of It too - I'd love an F2.8 zoom LOl
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Thats not luck, its a judgement call you made, you made a conscious choice to use high speed continuous mode, thats a mode/tool within the camera so why not use it.

Theres absolutely no point in bringing kit into the debate, ive seen rank amateurs/hobbyists using D300's with 100-300mm f/4 lenses produce way way better images than some so called professionals armed with £25,000 of the latest gear
 
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