Advice needed - Trigger and receiver system for Wireless Flash - Nikon

gilbouk

gilbouk

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Gil
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I'm completely new to off camera flash, and would like to start experimenting with subjects / people being back lit - to give that ethereal effect. Currently I have a D500, and a SB700 as well as a cheap 3rd party flash (not a speed light) which is TTL capable. I'm looking for a semi-professional / professional trigger and receiver system which will allow me to change settings from my camera / trigger, without having to adjust settings on the flash itself, which would be a pain if the subject is fairly far away. I'm not sure whether to go down the route of Godox or Yongnuo, or to sell my SB-700 in favour of a Nikon SB5000 and Nikon's own radio wireless system. I know this subject has probably been covered before. My worry is that I buy something that I later regret, and will have to sell in order to get what I should have bought in the first place which has the functions I will later find I need / expand into. Cheers folks
 
Your answer here is Godox. Forget Yongnuo, they have fallen well behind, after saturating (and wrecking) the market with cheap flashes.
Forget Nikon too, their flashguns are OK but severely overpriced and with a complicated triggering system.

The main advantages of Godox is that they have a large range of choices and an excellent trigger / remote system that works across their range.

If you want to create backlighting then you will usually need to fit a honeycomb grid to the flash, in order both to control the spread of light and to prevent lens flare. That's fine, but honeycombs eat light, which means that you need more lighting power to start with. You have plenty of choices in the Godox range but if you want to create your own light then the AD200 is probably your starting point, nothing with less power will make a lot of difference unless the ambient lighting levels are really low, and much more power would be needed in bright sunlight, so the AD200 is really nothing more than a step in the right direction.

It's all about the Inverse Square Law, i.e. how much power you need for any given lighting effect is dependent on the distance from flash to subject, so you can get away with a lot if you can place your flash really close but will need a lot of power when you can't.
 
Thanks for a very informative reply. What you have said makes sense - my SB-700 becomes pretty useless when I want f8 for group photos in dark situations and notching down the shutter speed / risking a larger aperture seems like the only half way solution. I've found photos need quite a lot of boosting in PP to achieve acceptable exposure and the quality is never there with the subjects far too bright, and the background far to dark, and I have a preference of shooting portraiture rather than groups in these situations.

For group photography / unassisted on the move photography where you have to be a free spirit to get the angles you want would you recommend on body flash as the best option? And for more static 'studio' style stationary photography, something like the AD200 on a stand with umbrella set up with your subjects standing as per your guidance?

To avoid taking my SB-700 off in order to use say the AD200 with Godox trigger, is there a better option to avoid a lot of faffing? Is there a Godox body mounted flash that acts as a trigger, is that a better option?
 
On camera-flash is nearly always the worst option from a lighting viewpoint but, in most situations even an on-camera flash is better than no flash at all, so much so that I only rarely take outdoor shots with no flash at all - the flash, even when it's badly placed, adds that bit of sparkle, a degree of fill and catchlights in the eyes.

For group photos outside you don't normally need to have the flash on-camera, you can have it / them on stands, which won't stop you moving around.

You can certainly use the AD200 in the studio and you won't be limited to umbrellas, which produce pretty uncontrolled lighting - you can use softboxes or anything else you like. But, for studio use, it makes sense to use mains powered flashes, which recycle very quickly, have a powerful modelling lamp and which cost a lot less. Something like this kit, made by Godox to Lencarta specs https://www.lencarta.com/all-produc...t-with-1-softbox-1-umbrella-300-300-kitsf4002

A lot of flashguns can act as slaves, there will be people on here who can answer your specific question about the SB-700 but I don't know the answer to that one, sorry.
 
Thanks Garry, what I should have said is I would like to move towards a completely portable option that's giving me better results than I'm getting and take some of the equipment you'd see in a studio out with me (not that I have any studio equipment of my own). I feel that body mounted flash is not giving me the impact I'm looking for. The idea of something like the AD200 as an extra to my kit does definitely seem to open up the options I have with and give me better results. Maybe the AD200 on a stand with a Softbox attachment for outdoor portraits, and a honeycomb grid as you suggested for the rear-lit idea.
 
Softboxes, used outdoors, can be a bit of an unnecessary complication, especially for fast-moving situations such as weddings. Most of the time, very good results can be obtained with no modifiers fitted to the flash (and especially when the flash is just adding to the existing light rather than when it is overpowering the sun and actually creating the light) and when a softer, larger light source is needed then a reflective umbrella is often all that's needed - don't use a shoot through umbrella outdoors, waste of time and flash energy - but if you do want to use softboxes, and have the time to tie them down to avoid them acting as a sail, bear in mind that you'll need a lot of power.

This video, which involved lighting just one person, had all sorts of different weather conditions from light rain to brilliant sunshine. It was shot a long time ago and I'm hazy on some of the details now but each unit was 600 watt-seconds and I think that I took 7 of them with me, not sure whether all were used or not. The crowd that you'll see are TP members, who were invited along for the experience (and to carry things:)
 
Garry Edwards said:
Softboxes, used outdoors, can be a bit of an unnecessary complication, especially for fast-moving situations such as weddings. Most of the time, very good results can be obtained with no modifiers fitted to the flash (and especially when the flash is just adding to the existing light rather than when it is overpowering the sun and actually creating the light) and when a softer, larger light source is needed then a reflective umbrella is often all that's needed - don't use a shoot through umbrella outdoors, waste of time and flash energy - but if you do want to use softboxes, and have the time to tie them down to avoid them acting as a sail, bear in mind that you'll need a lot of power.

This video, which involved lighting just one person, had all sorts of different weather conditions from light rain to brilliant sunshine. It was shot a long time ago and I'm hazy on some of the details now but each unit was 600 watt-seconds and I think that I took 7 of them with me, not sure whether all were used or not. The crowd that you'll see are TP members, who were invited along for the experience (and to carry things:)
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Oddly enough I was watching this video a couple of weeks back again. I remember the day turning out to be a scorcher and my emergency chocolate stash in case Garry needed a suger boost melting to mush. I'm sure that the most heads used was three and that was for the tractor shots. I think I have some set up shots somewhere, but no doubt can't put my hands on them.
 
BigJohn said:
Oddly enough I was watching this video a couple of weeks back again. I remember the day turning out to be a scorcher and my emergency chocolate stash in case Garry needed a suger boost melting to mush. I'm sure that the most heads used was three and that was for the tractor shots. I think I have some set up shots somewhere, but no doubt can't put my hands on them.
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You were the big guy with the small motorbike?
I remember that it ended up hot and sunny, the first shots though, with the model running, and then with her standing on the shooting stand, were dull, not that it matters.

Definitely more than 3 heads. Take the shot of her running, a strip softbox each side, a 150cm octa in front and the background had a "shaft of sunlight" behind her that I set up with a high intensity reflector. That's 4, just on that simple shot
 
That's some setup, very impressive. I don't think I'll ever get to use gear like that!! I just figured out why a speed light comes in handy when shooting outdoors. Found the umbrella and watering can on a bright day really interesting with the 3 stop filter on the lens
 
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Hi Gil,

As a long time Nikon shooter with a bunch of SB900s, and a Lencarta Safari (compatible with Godox 2.4Ghz triggers and controllers) and now an AD200 as well, I would echo Garry's advice and also advise you to ditch the SB700, and buy all-Godox gear. At least one AD200 and a bunch of Ving 860-II speedlights for portability, and maybe one AD600BM for some extra punch in daylight.

I have tried mixing the two systems and tbh I wouldn't advise it long term. I shot on location last Sunday and mixed the SB900s with the AD200. To do this, I stacked the Godox X-Pro trigger on top of a Yongnuo YN622N transceiver. The SB900's had YN622Ns on them to receive, and were set to manual, so no adjustment from camera as the YN622N, although it can adjust power remotely, is a PITA to use with no screen. I couldn't stack the X-Pro on top of the YN622N-TX dedicated transmitter with the screen as it has no pass through hot-shoe.

Now, this all worked fine in test, and on the day, for a while, and then just wouldn't. I removed the YN622 gear and fired the SB900's on the slave cell. The moral of this story is that just one system brings with it a reliability and simplicity that you will come to value more than anything else on location. I'm going to add some Ving 860's to my location kit.
 

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Just to reiterate the above, from where you are Gil, most of us cycled through PW then Yongnuo before settling on Godox (as the technology has advanced).
You might as well benefit from our experience and cut to the chase. You could start by buying Godox receivers to add to your current flashes, but you might as well sell them both and make a solid start. The good news is you can probably sell both your flashes and replace them more or less cost neutrally.

This is a cheaper fix than going to Nikon's appalling wireless system.

I've also mixed Godox (Lencarta) and Yongnuo triggers, it works but is a kludge you don't need to do in 2019. Godox aren't cheap in the same way as Yongnuo, but still inexpensive compared to buying the terrible Nikon system.
 
Thanks all, looks like Godox it is :). One thing I note is that the Godox flashes don't fire when they are mid-recycling and haven't achieved sufficient power for the scene, unlike the Nikon guns which will fire whatever is 'in the tank', even if it's not sufficient to what's asked. What are your takes on this difference during coverage of a crucial moment for example, when 1 shot may not be enough in a dark environment, and photos have to be taken in fairly fast succession. I would have thought having progressively darker photos is better than having sporadic photos with the ones in-between completely unsalvageable. I guess on the other hand it makes PP much easier having only equally exposed photos to work with. Is there a setting to stop the shutter releasing until the flash is ready, or do people use the bleep to help, or is it a case of watching the viewfinder symbol while composing at the same time.
 
Scooter said:
Hi Gil,

As a long time Nikon shooter with a bunch of SB900s, and a Lencarta Safari (compatible with Godox 2.4Ghz triggers and controllers) and now an AD200 as well, I would echo Garry's advice and also advise you to ditch the SB700, and buy all-Godox gear. At least one AD200 and a bunch of Ving 860-II speedlights for portability, and maybe one AD600BM for some extra punch in daylight.

I have tried mixing the two systems and tbh I wouldn't advise it long term. I shot on location last Sunday and mixed the SB900s with the AD200. To do this, I stacked the Godox X-Pro trigger on top of a Yongnuo YN622N transceiver. The SB900's had YN622Ns on them to receive, and were set to manual, so no adjustment from camera as the YN622N, although it can adjust power remotely, is a PITA to use with no screen. I couldn't stack the X-Pro on top of the YN622N-TX dedicated transmitter with the screen as it has no pass through hot-shoe.

Now, this all worked fine in test, and on the day, for a while, and then just wouldn't. I removed the YN622 gear and fired the SB900's on the slave cell. The moral of this story is that just one system brings with it a reliability and simplicity that you will come to value more than anything else on location. I'm going to add some Ving 860's to my location kit.
Click to expand...

I think the above would be too complicated for me :). I like simplicity. Godox trigger on the body with Godox flash on top and possibly in the near future an AD200 if I can manage it without assistance. Do you find managing all your kit on your own a handful, and do you have assistance when you are using the likes of your AD200? Nice result with your model btw. The lighting on your subject is only something I can dream about atm
 
Phil V said:
Just to reiterate the above, from where you are Gil, most of us cycled through PW then Yongnuo before settling on Godox (as the technology has advanced).
You might as well benefit from our experience and cut to the chase. You could start by buying Godox receivers to add to your current flashes, but you might as well sell them both and make a solid start. The good news is you can probably sell both your flashes and replace them more or less cost neutrally.

This is a cheaper fix than going to Nikon's appalling wireless system.

I've also mixed Godox (Lencarta) and Yongnuo triggers, it works but is a kludge you don't need to do in 2019. Godox aren't cheap in the same way as Yongnuo, but still inexpensive compared to buying the terrible Nikon system.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice :). When it comes to taking your Godox flash off the camera and controlling it remotely, what would your preference be - leaving an X1T on the body at all times (both on and off body situations), or to swap out your Godox flash for a XPRO which doesn't have the pass through hot shoe
 
Gil Bev said:
Thanks for the advice :). When it comes to taking your Godox flash off the camera and controlling it remotely, what would your preference be - leaving an X1T on the body at all times (both on and off body situations), or to swap out your Godox flash for a XPRO which doesn't have the pass through hot shoe
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I never use a passthrough, if I'm using a trigger, it's the xpro.

On the run, if I'm using multiple Speedlight's (sometimes when using only one), I generally handhold a speedlight in my left hand, for close(ish) work I prefer a small amount of modelling that I'm in control of.
 
Gil Bev said:
Thanks all, looks like Godox it is :). One thing I note is that the Godox flashes don't fire when they are mid-recycling and haven't achieved sufficient power for the scene, unlike the Nikon guns which will fire whatever is 'in the tank', even if it's not sufficient to what's asked. What are your takes on this difference during coverage of a crucial moment for example, when 1 shot may not be enough in a dark environment, and photos have to be taken in fairly fast succession. I would have thought having progressively darker photos is better than having sporadic photos with the ones in-between completely unsalvageable. I guess on the other hand it makes PP much easier having only equally exposed photos to work with. Is there a setting to stop the shutter releasing until the flash is ready, or do people use the bleep to help, or is it a case of watching the viewfinder symbol while composing at the same time.
Click to expand...
If that's a major concern - buy the Ving's; the LiOn batteries are much more efficient / quicker recycling.
 
Gil Bev said:
Thanks all, looks like Godox it is :). One thing I note is that the Godox flashes don't fire when they are mid-recycling and haven't achieved sufficient power for the scene, unlike the Nikon guns which will fire whatever is 'in the tank', even if it's not sufficient to what's asked. What are your takes on this difference during coverage of a crucial moment for example, when 1 shot may not be enough in a dark environment, and photos have to be taken in fairly fast succession. I would have thought having progressively darker photos is better than having sporadic photos with the ones in-between completely unsalvageable. I guess on the other hand it makes PP much easier having only equally exposed photos to work with. Is there a setting to stop the shutter releasing until the flash is ready, or do people use the bleep to help, or is it a case of watching the viewfinder symbol while composing at the same time.
Click to expand...
Phil V said:
If that's a major concern - buy the Ving's; the LiOn batteries are much more efficient / quicker recycling.
Click to expand...
I think that Phil has answered this question, as well as it can be answered.

The true answer is that there is no perfect answer, because different types of subject, different shooting conditions, different time constraints and different levels of equipment can make a huge difference.

In your case, you're just starting out with flash and you want to use it mainly for fill, photographing weddings. In my own, much more choreographed outdoor photography I've always had plenty of equipment, plenty of staff to help and professional models who work at my speed. In a wedding situation you don't have these luxuries and you will need to work with what you've got, and keep up with the speed of the events rather than slowing down the events in order to achieve perfection.

Even in the brightest sunlight, if you're photographing just one person, couple or very small group then even a small flashgun, fairly close to the subject, will achieve some improvement in the sense that it will add some fill and will add some level of catchlights to the eyes. Work it out this way, using the Inverse Square Law. . ..

With the Ving V86011, which has a claimed guide number of 60M (calculated at 100 ISO) then, at full power and with the flash 6M from the subject, the flash will provide theoretically correct exposure in total darkness at f/10 - call that f/8 for convenience and because guide numbers are calculated at an unrealistic maximum zoom setting - so you now know how much contribution the flash will provide, it's 100%.

But you're not shooting in total darkness. If you're shooting in bright sunlight then we add in the "Sunny 16" rule, which tells us that the sunlight will give us correct exposure at 1/100th second at f//16, which is the same exposure as 1/200th at f/11. Call that 1/250th for convenience. In this scenario, your flash will add light at a ratio of 1:2, which is as much fill as you are likely to want - maybe a bit too much so turn the flash down to half power, which will also halve the recycling time, and the flash will now contribute 25% in these conditions, which is generally fine.

Now, suppose that you take several shots in quick succession. The first one will have the fill, the others may not. The first one should be better because of this but the others won't be any worse than if you didn't have the flash at all, so they certainly won't be "unsalvageable"

Understanding the theory is essential, but you won't have to do calculations in your head because this flash will do it for you, using TTL.
 
Another option is a V860 II on camera, instead of purchasing a separate trigger at the press off a button the on camera flash can switch to being used as a trigger for a second off cameraflash ie AD200 This option even work with the cheap TT350 speedlight units.
 
Gil Bev said:
I think the above would be too complicated for me :). I like simplicity. Godox trigger on the body with Godox flash on top and possibly in the near future an AD200 if I can manage it without assistance. Do you find managing all your kit on your own a handful, and do you have assistance when you are using the likes of your AD200? Nice result with your model btw. The lighting on your subject is only something I can dream about atm
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Oh sure- I'm not recommending it - quite the opposite :) I did consider buying X1R receivers for all the non Godox gear however one of the other advantages of the modern Godox gear is that it all has the receiver built-in so it's one less thing per light to fail (which also makes diagnosing problems much quicker, as the chain of communication between camera and light is shortened) and one less battery to run down. Plus, as Phil says - they have proper batteries in them, not throwback AA cells.

I do try and keep the kit portable for these jobs and on this one we had an AD200, a 24" pop-up softbox, and 4 x SB900. In the car I also had a Safari II, but as the light levels were quite low I decided to leave it there. In the "grip bag" were 2 x regular 2m stands, a 2m compact stand, 4 A clamps, a Justin Clamp, a "knuckle", a Bowens S-Fit Speedlight/AD200 clamp and a roll of gaffer tape. We also had a sheets of colour correction gel and a lot of the gear was packed in the vintage suitcase prop. We had to bring it anyway, so I figured I might as well put the kit in it. Cameras and lenses in a LowePro Vertex backpack inc all the triggers, spare batteries, cards, lenses etc. Plus one tripod to ensure consistency of framing and allow for multiple shots to get "base" shots with no light stands in them. I could just about carry that lot but on this occasion, the talent and MUA were happy to help out.
 
Phil V said:
I never use a passthrough, if I'm using a trigger, it's the xpro.

On the run, if I'm using multiple Speedlight's (sometimes when using only one), I generally handhold a speedlight in my left hand, for close(ish) work I prefer a small amount of modelling that I'm in control of.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I could hold my camera lens combo straight without two hands so unless the flash is supported by something / somebody else, it has to be camera mounted for me I think
 
Scooter said:
Oh sure- I'm not recommending it - quite the opposite :) I did consider buying X1R receivers for all the non Godox gear however one of the other advantages of the modern Godox gear is that it all has the receiver built-in so it's one less thing per light to fail (which also makes diagnosing problems much quicker, as the chain of communication between camera and light is shortened) and one less battery to run down. Plus, as Phil says - they have proper batteries in them, not throwback AA cells.

I do try and keep the kit portable for these jobs and on this one we had an AD200, a 24" pop-up softbox, and 4 x SB900. In the car I also had a Safari II, but as the light levels were quite low I decided to leave it there. In the "grip bag" were 2 x regular 2m stands, a 2m compact stand, 4 A clamps, a Justin Clamp, a "knuckle", a Bowens S-Fit Speedlight/AD200 clamp and a roll of gaffer tape. We also had a sheets of colour correction gel and a lot of the gear was packed in the vintage suitcase prop. We had to bring it anyway, so I figured I might as well put the kit in it. Cameras and lenses in a LowePro Vertex backpack inc all the triggers, spare batteries, cards, lenses etc. Plus one tripod to ensure consistency of framing and allow for multiple shots to get "base" shots with no light stands in them. I could just about carry that lot but on this occasion, the talent and MUA were happy to help out.
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I think I may for now purchase an X1R trigger and matching receiver to allow me to use my current gear - my SB-700 - trigger mounted on my camera body, and another flash receiver mounted with the plan to sell out my SB-700 for a V860II shortly. At least then I will have the ability to practise with 2 flashes until I invest in an AD200. I am a quick learner, so hopefully I can get some descent results with some understanding and practise with the gear.

I too would like to keep portable, and I think the stands and modifiers will definitely add bulk to the things I need to carry. I'm curious how the base shots without light stands help you to achieve the finished result? Does it work better than cloning the stands out?
 
One question about flash outdoors, is it best to go Manual? I'm finding it hard to understand what my flash is doing when it's in TTL / metering mode etc. Particularly when the photo is properly exposed to begin with - and you just want to add fill light, I'm struggling to see any difference with the flash firing in TTL. It's almost as if the flash didn't fire.
 
Gil Bev said:
I'm curious how the base shots without light stands help you to achieve the finished result? Does it work better than cloning the stands out?
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It gives a better option than just cloning out the stands, having a full frame of the shot without the gear means you can clone the clean shot onto the lit shot, rather than trying to paint out the stands and hoping the nearby areas are 'close enough' - stands aren't a big issue, but brollies and softboxes hide a chunk of background.
 
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Garry Edwards said:
You were the big guy with the small motorbike?
I remember that it ended up hot and sunny, the first shots though, with the model running, and then with her standing on the shooting stand, were dull, not that it matters.

Definitely more than 3 heads. Take the shot of her running, a strip softbox each side, a 150cm octa in front and the background had a "shaft of sunlight" behind her that I set up with a high intensity reflector. That's 4, just on that simple shot
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Nope no motorbike, Peugeot 206. I came with you before as well when we first shot with the safari li-on when the video went all a bit funny. I forgot about the backlight on that shot.
 
Got the Neewer version of the V860ii (NW860II) from the classified section. Nice piece of kit, a good bit heavier than the SB-700. Going to keep the 2 of them until I'm completely used to the new flash. With regards avoiding blowing photos in daylight and using the flash for fill - would I be right in saying this flash will do hss allowing me to use smaller apertures. I read somewhere that it switches over to HSS after 1/200, however my body supports flash at 1/250 before going to HSS. What do I do with the settings here?

Also, does anybody know where I can get spare batteries - for this to become my primary flashgun, I'll need at least another battery as a spare, possibly 2
 
Gil Bev said:
I read somewhere that it switches over to HSS after 1/200, however my body supports flash at 1/250 before going to HSS. What do I do with the settings here?
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the camera determines when it goes to HSS
Also, does anybody know where I can get spare batteries - for this to become my primary flashgun, I'll need at least another battery as a spare, possibly 2
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just google the battery part number and official suppliers such as Photomart have them in stock

Mike
 
Cheers for the help on finding the battery part number. I've found them pretty cheap on Lencarta's website - hopefully they'll be back in stock soon
 
I think I saw kind of a question but maybe I missed the ansver. The Godox speedlights are triggers themselves so the one on Camera can fire and also control other strobes.
 
Got to use my V860ii (Neewer version) for the first time in an under pressure situation and have to say it overheats a lot quicker than the SB-700. Once it does get too hot, it's not much use anymore, and I had to swap out with my SB-700 to continue shooting. I think I'll probably keep it as a backup / second gun for wireless applications and keep my SB-700 as my workhorse
 
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