advice on DOF please (Fuji HS10)

[earleybird]

Can someone please help me with the issue of depth of field on the HS10.
I have found some very useful DOF tables here http://www.dofmaster.com/doftable.html

presumably I enter the equivalent focal length rather than the true Focal length yes ?
I have been trying to work out why so many of my garden bird images have poor detail and very small DOF.

This table has really opened my eyes.

Take for example this handheld shot of a Long tailed Tit at approx 10feet 760mm (equiv) f/6.4 1/56 iso 200
http://www.flickr.com/photos/57957957@N08/5481760936/
According to the table if I understand it correctly the DOF should be either zero or approx 1.5" depending on if I use 126mm or 720mm as my focal length.

Anyway the important thing I learnt is that in order to get a small finch or tit in focus for the whole of its depth at 10-20 feet I'm going to need to change my strategy and camera settings.

I suppose its all about aperture and focal length. Until the daylight levels improve would my best strategy be to reduce focal length to say 500, Use A mode ,set iso to 800 and if necessary crop the image and reduce its size to reduce pixelation ?

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Here is a diagram showing the various sizes of sensors in digital cameras...

The outer box equates to something like a 12mp Nikon D700, whereas the 2/3" one is the sensor in your camera. When you use the "zoom" your camera achieves the magnification not by zooming the lens, but by cropping the picture, so instead of using the full 10mp it only records on the centre 3mp of the sensor, which as you can see is a tiny area, hence why you don't get crystal-clear pictures.

 

[DemiLion]

I'm not sure that I follow your post there Graham. The HS10 has a large optical zoom range, and the effect that you're talking about comes from using digital zoom.

Nick, to be perfectly honest you are pushing the limits of an otherwise perfectly capable bridge camera. With any compact sized sensor, I'd avoid cropping as much as possible because otherwise you'll end up with exactly the effect that FiTP describes above; ie crud.

What you're seeing is typical of smaller sensors, in that they look fine as a smaller picture, but as soon as you try to view at larger sizes they don't stand up to scrutiny, especially in less than optimal circumstances. Low shutter speeds, slightly missed focus (which I suspect you have in a couple of the images) and highish ISO will all take their toll heavily.

You do however need to take the size of your sensor into account when looking at the DoF charts!

 

[HoppyUK]

Can someone please help me with the issue of depth of field on the HS10.
I have found some very useful DOF tables here http://www.dofmaster.com/doftable.html

presumably I enter the equivalent focal length rather than the true Focal length yes ?
I have been trying to work out why so many of my garden bird images have poor detail and very small DOF.

This table has really opened my eyes.

Take for example this handheld shot of a Long tailed Tit at approx 10feet 760mm (equiv) f/6.4 1/56 iso 200
http://www.flickr.com/photos/57957957@N08/5481760936/
According to the table if I understand it correctly the DOF should be either zero or approx 1.5" depending on if I use 126mm or 720mm as my focal length.

Anyway the important thing I learnt is that in order to get a small finch or tit in focus for the whole of its depth at 10-20 feet I'm going to need to change my strategy and camera settings.

I suppose its all about aperture and focal length. Until the daylight levels improve would my best strategy be to reduce focal length to say 500, Use A mode ,set iso to 800 and if necessary crop the image and reduce its size to reduce pixelation ?

It's all about aperture and magnification. And magnification includes focal length, shooting distance, and sensor size.

On DOFmaster, format size is handled when you input the camera model at the top, and you then input the actual focal length not any equivalent.

Your particular camera has one of the smaller sensors as far as compacts go (which helps it achieve that massive zoom range) but they're all tiny. Don't crop, as you're starting out with little enough image area to start with, and fill the frame as best you can - firstly by getting near, and then closing the gap with zoom.

 

[strumstrum]

I have been trying to work out why so many of my garden bird images have poor detail:

I think in the end you will find this is less about DoF and more about the type of camera you are using is wrong for the type of photography you want to shoot... not wrong as in will not do the job but wrong as in its harder to get the job done..

my Lad has an excellent Lumix superzoom bridge that can f2.8 thru the focal range and he has got some excellent shots with it but when I go out getting wildlife/flight and he tags along he always struggles..

superzoom bridge cameras are an excellent all in one bargain camera but I think one of there limitations happen to be what you are interested in shooting.

trying the 7 shot burst mode might help??

 

[earleybird]

thanks for your responses not that I think any of my questions have been addressed really.

I feel like its just been a ****ing contest and I've come up short .:shrug:

I know that a £200.00 camera is not going to set the world on fire but from the quality of images I've seen achieved by the majority of the DSLR snobs I've seen I can create a better image on my 6Mp P&S frankly.

The picture of sensor sizes is all very interesting flashinthepan but I don't see how that answers any of the questions I've put ?

Strumstrum How on earth is the 7 shot burst mode going to help ? if the depth of field is 1" at the shooting distance and the birds are at least 2" deep I don't see how that is going to help ??

I'm more than aware of the limitations of my camera but my questions were about advice on depth of field.

So ok your pecker is bigger than mine but what do you lot really understand about DOF

 

[strumstrum]

terrible attitude to take, I am trying to say that your question about DoF isnt the problem with the "poor detail".. just like the Siskin picture was not difficult to focus because of the niger seed..

you seem to think I jumped in with my 'big knob' without a thought...this is not the case.

Strumstrum How on earth is the 7 shot burst mode going to help ? if the depth of field is 1" at the shooting distance and the birds are at least 2" deep I don't see how that is going to help ??

I'm more than aware of the limitations of my camera but my questions were about advice on depth of field.

So ok your knob is bigger than mine but what do you lot really understand about DOF

 

[srichards]

Do you use a tripod? If not, try one. Might let you use a smaller aperture for more DOF assuming the birds don't flit about too much.

Is there any way of getting a bit more light on the feeder?

 

[AJQS]

Can someone please help me with the issue of depth of field on the HS10.
I have found some very useful DOF tables here http://www.dofmaster.com/doftable.html

presumably I enter the equivalent focal length rather than the true Focal length yes ?
I have been trying to work out why so many of my garden bird images have poor detail and very small DOF.

This table has really opened my eyes.

Take for example this handheld shot of a Long tailed Tit at approx 10feet 760mm (equiv) f/6.4 1/56 iso 200
http://www.flickr.com/photos/57957957@N08/5481760936/
According to the table if I understand it correctly the DOF should be either zero or approx 1.5" depending on if I use 126mm or 720mm as my focal length.

Anyway the important thing I learnt is that in order to get a small finch or tit in focus for the whole of its depth at 10-20 feet I'm going to need to change my strategy and camera settings.

I suppose its all about aperture and focal length. Until the daylight levels improve would my best strategy be to reduce focal length to say 500, Use A mode ,set iso to 800 and if necessary crop the image and reduce its size to reduce pixelation ?

If you want more DOF you will have to use a smaller aperture or zoom out a bit, at the risk of losing magnification.

I'm actually quite suprised at how shallow the DOF is on that camera to be fair.

If you crop or up the ISO you will loose a lot of quality.

Everything in phtography is a compromise, you'll just have to work out how much of each componentyou can sacrifice to get a picture that best meeds your needs overall.

 

[earleybird]

just like the Siskin picture was not difficult to focus because of the niger seed..

you seem to think I jumped in with my 'big knob' without a thought...this is not the case.

I have a Fuji HS10 that is the camera that I have !

I do not have a £2000+ DSLR .

What is the point of telling me that the camera I have is unsuitable for taking hobby pictures of garden birds ? Or telling me I should buy a DSLR ? I am aware of the camera's limitations .

What I am asking is how I can make the most of what I have .! isn't it ?

Its not the camera anyway. Its all about the person behind the camera. A talented photographer will be capabale of taking some breathtakingly good images with a simple point and shoot /bridge camera.

I am new to photography and struggling to get to grips with my new camera. I have a lot to learn and before any bright spark suggests it .......I have bought several books and have booked 2x day long basic photography courses next month.

Now .... what I asked for is how I can improve the DOF of my images with what I've got.

Bythe way I disagree with your opinion about the difficulty of spot focusing on a tiny finch sized bird when next to a large, black, dense,reflective, cylindrical object. My limited experience suggests otherwise

 

[earleybird]

If you want more DOF you will have to use a smaller aperture or zoom out a bit, at the risk of losing magnification.

I'm actually quite suprised at how shallow the DOF is on that camera to be fair.

If you crop or up the ISO you will loose a lot of quality.

Everything in phtography is a compromise, you'll just have to work out how much of each componentyou can sacrifice to get a picture that best meeds your needs overall.

thank you Alan for addressing my questions. I too was surprised at the lack of DOF . No wonder there is so much critism of lack of IQ with this bridge camera from bird photographers on the net. I assume that the larger percentage of users are noobs like myself and are probably relatively ignorant about DOF and the factors governing it .

What I suppose I should do is work on getting closer to my subject and using less than 500mm FL . I do not need to have poster sized images for poster printing so another option I suppose is to reduce the image size to compensate for lack of pixels when cropping . Most of my images are put on the net and i am generally limited to 800x800 anyway.

To be fair there is not a very noticable loss in IQ at 400iso even 800 is quite accetable for a recording image.

many thanks

 

[guybrush]

It's all about aperture and magnification. And magnification includes focal length, shooting distance, and sensor size.

On DOFmaster, format size is handled when you input the camera model at the top, and you then input the actual focal length not any equivalent.

Your particular camera has one of the smaller sensors as far as compacts go (which helps it achieve that massive zoom range) but they're all tiny. Don't crop, as you're starting out with little enough image area to start with, and fill the frame as best you can - firstly by getting near, and then closing the gap with zoom.

What are you putting in on your DoF chart for the focal length, because if the bit in bold is true which Richard says then your calculations are going to be way off. You should be entering in a focal length between 4.2mm and 126mm.

 

[Grendel]

Earleybird. Can I suggest you reign in your attitude and actually listen to the advice you're being given.

Try showing a little respect and courtesy. If you can't say anything in a civil manner, don't say anything at all.

 

[Suvv]

thanks for your responses not that I think any of my questions have been addressed really.

I feel like its just been a ****ing contest and I've come up short .:shrug:

I know that a £200.00 camera is not going to set the world on fire but from the quality of images I've seen achieved by the majority of the DSLR snobs I've seen I can create a better image on my 6Mp P&S frankly.

The picture of sensor sizes is all very interesting flashinthepan but I don't see how that answers any of the questions I've put ?

Strumstrum How on earth is the 7 shot burst mode going to help ? if the depth of field is 1" at the shooting distance and the birds are at least 2" deep I don't see how that is going to help ??

I'm more than aware of the limitations of my camera but my questions were about advice on depth of field.

So ok your pecker is bigger than mine but what do you lot really understand about DOF

Well I was going to give some advice but as I have a DSLR I must be a snob who can't take pictures and doesn't know anything about DOF. :shrug:

 

[DaydreamJay]

Would it be possible to put the camera nearer the feeder and use a remote shutter release?

 

[earleybird]

Well I was going to give some advice but as I have a DSLR I must be a snob who can't take pictures and doesn't know anything about DOF. :shrug:

probably

 

[earleybird]

Would it be possible to put the camera nearer the feeder and use a remote shutter release?

Hi Daydream-jay
yes that would be a perfect solution unfortunately the HS10 doesn't have any facility for remote shutter release. I don't think they have put one in the HS20 either. Its a real shame .

I did buy a Canon S200 for £20.00 off ebay which has a timelapse setting which had some success at 30 second intervals and 750mm subject distance.
I also took a Fuji S5600 apart and hard wired the focus and shutter switch but I've not tried this yet . Problem is a 35 foot cable from the kitchen and disguising the camera and protecting it from rain.

Its a great idea though thank you.

 

[lawrie29]

Your particular camera has one of the smaller sensors as far as compacts go (which helps it achieve that massive zoom range) but they're all tiny.

No it has a 2/3" sensor, not the biggest in the world, but not the smallest either. As can be seen from Flash's comparison chart.

 

[earleybird]

Earleybird. Can I suggest you reign in your attitude and actually listen to the advice you're being given.

Try showing a little respect and courtesy. If you can't say anything in a civil manner, don't say anything at all.

i have considered the advice given Paul and decided most of it didn't address my questions and was complete rubbish.

But then if you had bothered to read all the posts and my initial questions you would have known that wouldn't you.?

 

[Marc]

i have considered the advice given Paul and decided most of it didn't address my questions and was complete rubbish.

But then if you had bothered to read all the posts and my initial questions you would have known that wouldn't you.?

I would strongly advise you to reread the following post

Earleybird. Can I suggest you reign in your attitude and actually listen to the advice you're being given.

Try showing a little respect and courtesy. If you can't say anything in a civil manner, don't say anything at all.

 

[DaydreamJay]

Hi Daydream-jay
yes that would be a perfect solution unfortunately the HS10 doesn't have any facility for remote shutter release. I don't think they have put one in the HS20 either. Its a real shame .

I did buy a Canon S200 for £20.00 off ebay which has a timelapse setting which had some success at 30 second intervals and 750mm subject distance.
I also took a Fuji S5600 apart and hard wired the focus and shutter switch but I've not tried this yet . Problem is a 35 foot cable from the kitchen and disguising the camera and protecting it from rain.

Its a great idea though thank you.

Maybe you could cobble something together along the lines of this:
http://www.srb-griturn.com/shutter-releases-246-c.asp

There's a mechanical one on there with a 20 foot air release but it's £35.

 

[lawrie29]

I would have to say that you need to try a tripod. Hand holding at 720mm (assuming max zoom) is always going to be hard.

Are you using auto settings or shooting in aperture or shutter priority?

Are you using manual or auto focus?

I am also a Bridge user, so understand where you are coming from, and find that people on here generally do not mention it when critiquing shots.

You do need to learn the limits of the camera as well though.

I woudl say you need to clear any foliage out of the way, as the Long Tailed Tit shot is not helped buy the plant in front of the bird, and the tail is blurry because of the speed that the end moves.

You could also try flicking auto focus off. Use auto focus to get the feeder in focus, then turn it off. As long as you don't move the camera of change the focal length it will stay in focus and then you can keep shooting knowing you have th e focus nailed.

 

[earleybird]

Do you use a tripod? If not, try one. Might let you use a smaller aperture for more DOF assuming the birds don't flit about too much.

Is there any way of getting a bit more light on the feeder?

Thank you for your response srichards. You have probably hit the nail on the head about light levels actually.

I don't really understand the various relationships yet and am struggling to get the best of the camera's manual modes and settings but the feeding station in my garden has unfortunately rather low light levels due to a neighbouring property.

There is nothing I can do about it unfortunately. I cannot move the feeding stations and just have to wait until the summer months when the sun is a bit higher in the sky and clears the adjacent property.

In the meantime even shots with poor DOF and IQ are still good practice .

 

[DaydreamJay]

Alternatively you can plug a remote receiver into the USB port. I am fairly sure you can anyway...

 

[lawrie29]

Thank you for your response srichards. You have probably hit the nail on the head about light levels actually.

I don't really understand the various relationships yet and am struggling to get the best of the camera's manual modes and settings but the feeding station in my garden has unfortunately rather low light levels due to a neighbouring property.

There is nothing I can do about it unfortunately. I cannot move the feeding stations and just have to wait until the summer months when the sun is a bit higher in the sky and clears the adjacent property.

In the meantime even shots with poor DOF and IQ are still good practice .

Can you put something white nearby to act as a relflector? I know it may not look the best, but it shouldn't put the birds off, and you can always move it out the way for when you don;t want to shoot the birdies.

 

[earleybird]

Maybe you could cobble something together along the lines of this:
http://www.srb-griturn.com/shutter-releases-246-c.asp

There's a mechanical one on there with a 20 foot air release but it's £35.

Thats a good idea too thanks. I'm a bit reluctant to leave my camera out there unprotected at the moment though due to the changable weather. Plus the little blighters will probably c**p on it

The trouble is there would be no chance to see the composition and how the birds will appear . It would be a bit random.

If it wasn't so cold I might try putting up a blind so I could move closer. That is probably going to be the answer in the long term I suspect.
Thanks DDJ

 

[DemiLion]

i have considered the advice given Paul and decided most of it didn't address my questions and was complete rubbish.

But then if you had bothered to read all the posts and my initial questions you would have known that wouldn't you.?

Likewise if you'd bothered to read the responses before chipping off, you would see that they were intended to be helpful.

I suspect that you are going to find out what green usernames mean in the very near future.

 

[DaydreamJay]

Does the HS10 have a hot shoe? You can buy a remote flash trigger and receiver for about £20 and an old flash unit for £5 and rig that up near the bird feeder. You might scare the birds away permanently though lol.

 

[earleybird]

Can you put something white nearby to act as a relflector? I know it may not look the best, but it shouldn't put the birds off, and you can always move it out the way for when you don;t want to shoot the birdies.

Hi Lawrie Yes I'm sure I could although the neighbours will think I'm complete nuts

Could this help with DOF ? I'm struggling to understand how all the different settings and factors work together. its all about the exposure triangle isn't it ?
If I can increase the light on the subject I can reduce the aperture for the same given speed and thus get a better DOF ? is that correct ?
thanks

 

[lawrie29]

What do you mean by better DOF? Do you want it so more of the bird is in focus, or less?

A wide aperture (f1.8, for example) has the aperture blades open wide, letting in more light. This allows for a faster shutter speed - so a crisper shot, less movement blur. This works with lower light conditions as more light hits the sensor. However, this aperture has a narrow focal plain, so less of the bird is in focus, but creates a nice blurry background.

A narrow aperture, (f 11, for example) closes the aperture blades. This allows less light down the lens, meaning a slower shutter speed so more movement blur. But this creates a larger focal plain so that more of the bird is in focus. To reduce the movement blur you woudl ideally need more light - nice bright sunlight for example. Hence the reflector to add light to your subject.

You can also try increasing the ISO to allow the shutter speed to increase, but this may then mean you get more noise in the shot.

Out of interest, are you outside when shooting, or are you inside? If inside, do you shoot through an open window, or is there a layer of glass in the way, which won't help.

 

[HoppyUK]

No it has a 2/3" sensor, not the biggest in the world, but not the smallest either. As can be seen from Flash's comparison chart.

Fuji HS10 has a 1/2.3in sensor (6.16 x 4.62mm) not 2/3in which is much larger. It is bigger than most camera phones, but one of the smallest in a compact camera.

Other compacts have a 1/1.7in sensor, which although still tiny in relative terms, is about 60% larger than the HS10.

Manufacturers use these arcane measures (dating back to old TV camera tube dimensions) to confuse people and disguise that fact they are actually only the size of your little finger nail. The upside is, as stated above, you can get enormous 'reach' out of a very compact lens with a relatively short focal length. A true 720mm lens with an 'equivalent' field of view to the HS10's 126mm lens would be around two feet long.

 

[earleybird]

Out of interest, are you outside when shooting, or are you inside? If inside, do you shoot through an open window, or is there a layer of glass in the way, which won't help.

I usually shoot from the bathroom window which is open. Its the only window with a decent vantage point. Unfortunately I have to hand hold reaching over the wash hand basin which is in front of the window. hence not being able to use a mono/tripod.

The siskin picture was taken outside at a distance of about 8 feet . A complete stroke of luck as the bird clearly didn't see me standing motionless.

The problem with the Siskin and Long Tailed Tit images is only half the depth of the birds are in clear focus. The dof of this camera would seem to be very limited unless it is the way I'm using the settings.?

 

[earleybird]

Fuji HS10 has a 1/2.3in sensor (6.16 x 4.62mm) not 2/3in which is much larger. It is bigger than most camera phones, but one of the smallest in a compact camera.

Other compacts have a 1/1.7in sensor, which although still tiny in relative terms, is about 60% larger than the HS10.

.

is this why the HS20 is being criticised so much already ? it has a slightly larger sensor but they've upped the pixel count to 15Mp I believe. ?

 

[HoppyUK]

I usually shoot from the bathroom window which is open. Its the only window with a decent vantage point. Unfortunately I have to hand hold reaching over the wash hand basin which is in front of the window. hence not being able to use a mono/tripod.

The siskin picture was taken outside at a distance of about 8 feet . A complete stroke of luck as the bird clearly didn't see me standing motionless.

The problem with the Siskin and Long Tailed Tit images is only half the depth of the birds are in clear focus. The dof of this camera would seem to be very limited unless it is the way I'm using the settings.?

I don't think DoF is the problem. As you will see from the DOFmaster calculator, one of the things your camera delivers is much more depth of field than cameras with a larger sensor, at a given f/number.

What you really need is good light, then get as close as possible (or perhaps try and tempt the birds closer to your fixed viewpoint) focus carefully on the bird's nearest eye and keep the shutter speed up.

I thing you are very close to getting some very good images - they're not bad as it is. Clear away the twigs in the foreground

One thing that might be worth a try is flash. Just a dash of fill-in at close range can be very effective. It will lift the contrast a lot and the flash image will be nice and crisp. Just don't over-do it.

 

[lawrie29]

Fuji HS10 has a 1/2.3in sensor (6.16 x 4.62mm) not 2/3in which is much larger. It is bigger than most camera phones, but one of the smallest in a compact camera.

Other compacts have a 1/1.7in sensor, which although still tiny in relative terms, is about 60% larger than the HS10.

Manufacturers use these arcane measures (dating back to old TV camera tube dimensions) to confuse people and disguise that fact they are actually only the size of your little finger nail. The upside is, as stated above, you can get enormous 'reach' out of a very compact lens with a relatively short focal length. A true 720mm lens with an 'equivalent' field of view to the HS10's 126mm lens would be around two feet long.

Fair nuff, just went with the info another poster provided.

 

[lawrie29]

I usually shoot from the bathroom window which is open. Its the only window with a decent vantage point. Unfortunately I have to hand hold reaching over the wash hand basin which is in front of the window. hence not being able to use a mono/tripod.

The siskin picture was taken outside at a distance of about 8 feet . A complete stroke of luck as the bird clearly didn't see me standing motionless.

The problem with the Siskin and Long Tailed Tit images is only half the depth of the birds are in clear focus. The dof of this camera would seem to be very limited unless it is the way I'm using the settings.?

Can you get a minipod, gorilla pod/beanbag or a full size tripod that with the feet adjusted correctly will allow the correct support.

 

[lawrie29]

Bridge cameras will always get criticised as they are a compromise, they are not a DSLR, and they are not a compact, they are a hybrid and this needs to be remembered.

If you need the quality, you will buy a DSLR and spend a fortune on lenses. If you can compromise then it makes sense to saze the money.

Can you get some kind of clamp support for the camera?

 

[HoppyUK]

is this why the HS20 is being criticised so much already ? it has a slightly larger sensor but they've upped the pixel count to 15Mp I believe. ?

I wasn't aware that it is being criticised. This style of bridge camera has its limitations but for the money, and the size, they pack a heck of a punch. If you work within their limitations they deliver amazingly well - as I think you have already demonstrated.

Edit: those limitions tend to including respecting the small sensor and not asking too much of it and certainly not pushing your luck by cropping or raising the ISO too high. They are also a bit sluggish and don't respond instantly so not great for action and motorsport etc.

 

[lawrie29]

Having reread, you want to shoot in aperture priority, shooting at as high an F number as you can allowing a decent shutter speed - you may have to experiement and change it depending on the light conditions.

Don't be afraid to up your ISO - yur shooting at 200, whereas 400 should be do able and would allow a higher f number to increase the focal plain allowing the bird to be in focus.

With the Long tail tit shot, I thought it was all in focus, you just lost the tail due to motion blur? I'm no expert though...!

 

[earleybird]

Having reread, you want to shoot in aperture priority, shooting at as high an F number as you can allowing a decent shutter speed - you may have to experiement and change it depending on the light conditions.

Don't be afraid to up your ISO - yur shooting at 200, whereas 400 should be do able and would allow a higher f number to increase the focal plain allowing the bird to be in focus.

With the Long tail tit shot, I thought it was all in focus, you just lost the tail due to motion blur? I'm no expert though...!

thank you laurie for the compliment.I am seeing quite a bit of improvement since last year but it is frustrating sometimes not knowing why some images are better than others.
I can't get close enough to the camera and high enough to see through the EVF so even a tapletop tripod is no help regretably for the bathroom. I'll have to focus my efforts on getting closer or bringing the birds closer to me in the garden.
Thank you for the settings advice. i'll up the iso to 400 (I'm mostly using A mode now)

I have booked a weeks holiday at Gigrin farm this summer and can't wait to try my luck at the Kites and other bop
I can see already that eventually I shall need to move to a good DSLR and a big expensive lens if my interest stays as keen as it is now. I'd better start saving lol.

Thank you everyone for all your helpful advice and spending so much time today trying to help. i really do appreciate it . For those that scoffed at my bridge camera .... well we all have to start somewhere and this was the best I could afford for a fledgling hobby.
Apologies if I was a bit grumpy with some of you. i'm sure that you meant well.