Advice on spy monitoring camera?

Garry Edwards

Garry Edwards

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The situation is that an elderly relative, suffering from both Parkinsons' and dementia, is living at home with (very expensive) live-in care. We have grounds for believing that some of the carers (they change frequently) are basically just sitting around and not doing their job, she has had several falls that simply shouldn't have happened, so a way forward may be to install a hidden camera,

The idea is to record what happens, so that we can be sure that she's getting the care she needs. We don't want (wouldn't work anyway) alerts to a mobile, or to watch events live, so the needs are really pretty basic.

As I see it, the only option that would work would be a mains powered one that doesn't need wi-fi, such as this one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/226801963121

Does anyone who has experience of this type of problem have any advice please?
 
Garry Edwards said:
The situation is that an elderly relative, suffering from both Parkinsons' and dementia, is living at home with (very expensive) live-in care. We have grounds for believing that some of the carers (they change frequently) are basically just sitting around and not doing their job, she has had several falls that simply shouldn't have happened, so a way forward may be to install a hidden camera,

The idea is to record what happens, so that we can be sure that she's getting the care she needs. We don't want (wouldn't work anyway) alerts to a mobile, or to watch events live, so the needs are really pretty basic.

As I see it, the only option that would work would be a mains powered one that doesn't need wi-fi, such as this one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/226801963121

Does anyone who has experience of this type of problem have any advice please?
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Thankfully I have never had to have that experience and I sorry to hear that you are in that position :(

As you may be aware of the various 'investigative programmes' there have been such needs and a number of examples showed the suspected offenders were quite canny and spotted something new and out of place.

I wonder the CAB can give you any pointers?

I wish you well in your efforts to settle the matter.
 
Is it allowed to film people at work without their knowledge?

(I know exactly what you mean about the expense of live in care, sympathies there)
 
ecoleman said:
I'd be inclined to install a camera that was completely visible.

Let them know they are being watched and they'll be less inclined to sit around doing nothing.
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Thanks, that's a great idea, I should have thought of that.
 
ecoleman said:
I'd be inclined to install a camera that was completely visible.

Let them know they are being watched and they'll be less inclined to sit around doing nothing.
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A very good point
Garry Edwards said:
Thanks, that's a great idea, I should have thought of that.
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:plus1:

There are indeed adverts re: internal security, pet monitoring usages = no need to be covert about it!

PS though I would be inclined to place it/them in a fixed position not just sitting on a shelf where they could be "accidentally" moved and not placed exactly back where they were with your intended view of the room!

PPS even better if they operated without an indicator light showing they were 'active'........in other words they hopefully will get ignored as part of the furniture.
 
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Maybe go to the company and express your concerns first.

"It's a bit concerning that Patient is falling so much, have you got any suggestions? A friend suggested we looked at putting a couple of cameras in, but we wondered if you have any ideas for situations like this".
 
We've done this several times, but nothing changes.
 
Garry Edwards said:
We've done this several times, but nothing changes.
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Have you reported the problems to her Doctor or social services?

The Tapo camera range might not be a bad idea. I have had them for a while and they're reasonably reliable and they have an app. It's nothing like the brief but sometimes it's better to go for easy.

Tapo ones do have local storage but also wifi and their own cloud. They also offer ONVIF support so work with proper recording software. Gives you a wider range of options. With the not connected option you have to always go there and get the footage and check it. Having a room they don't know is covered with a covert camera might not be a bad idea though.

 
srichards said:
Have you reported the problems to her Doctor or social services?
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Yes, several times, but their only interest seems to be in covering their own backs, and they claim that the solution is to put her into a care home, which is the opposite of what she wants but would although SS to recover the costs, because she owns her own house, they can't do that whilst she's still living there, she had to fund her own care until her money ran out, the family then had to pay the costs for about a year, SS then picked up the care costs for just 6 weeks, still waiting for their decision about future payments.

In short, they're a disgrace, interested only in money and with zero interest in her needs.
 
A trail cam? Mine have a fairly wide angle, do not emit light when working and you can set them to be triggered by movement and run video and/or stills with sound for configurable periods of time.
 
Pound Coin said:
Is it allowed to film people at work without their knowledge?
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Generally, no. It's a clear gdpr breach.

In this case, probably yes. There's an exemption for videoing in your own home for domestic purposes except for bathrooms and bedrooms.

Crucially you would probably need the home owner's consent and if it's somebody suffering with dementia where you don't have LPA that can be complex.

Personally I'd install visible ones and tell them they are there. One of the major internal home security brands should work well.
 
Many thanks Jonathan, that's helpful.

She owns her home, we applied for a LPA a long time ago, constantly blocked by SS, who want control themselves,
They assessed her to lack capability - surprisingly they can do that, no medical qualifications needed - but the family distinctly remember that she asked us to install cameras long before she was assessed, it wasn't done at the time because of inefficiency,

What I have in mind, following the helpful suggestion from @ecoleman is to install 1 visible camera in the living room and another in the kitchen, in plain sight, with the recorder hard-wired so that it can't be accidentally switched off. This will hopefully ensure that the carer on duty is in the same room with her, is awake, isn't playing on her phone and will notice if she tries to walk without her walking frame or tries to carry something that's too heavy for her (sadly, nearly everything is now too heavy). The only downside that I can see is that we will have to remove her commode from the living room and position it somewhere not covered by the cameras.

We have help from 2 other carers, both very experienced and capable, they take over when the agency carers aren't available, and it may be significant that no falls or other problems have occurred whenever they are there. The agency staff are very different, well-intentioned I'm sure, but lacking experience, unable to speak English well if at all, constantly changing and lacking commitment. No doubt they're paid peanuts.
 
Misdirection could be another option to consider. The sacrificial overt camera to draw attention away from an additional covert camera.

For the overt camera, the reasoning can be simply to find out what is causing the falls and you could stress that you understand staff can't be in the room 24/7, so the blame isn't being pointed there. Or go down the webcam route and say the camera is there for video chats (if that's feasible). I think you can even turn a tablet into a security camera, which would also support the video chat notion (again if feasible).

The covert camera could be in a different room. One of those hidden clocks or something that can plug in for power, although they are probably well known by now. I think you can even get USB charger plugs that have hidden cameras in them.
 
I can understand your concern and predicament, Garry.

We had a similar situation with my late MiL - carers constantly changing and seemingly more concerned with doing whatever in the very short time slot they had, but as you say they were probably paid peanuts.

I think Graham's suggestion about the camera being a way of finding what is causing the falls is good but I think the response of the care agency could be challenged as the falls only occur when their carers are present. However, that is easy for me to say.

Hope things turn out well whatever you do.

Dave
 
Update: The old lady died in her own bed on Wednesday, with her daughter and grandchildren with her, so her suffering is now over.

The "Care" arranged by the local authority just got worse and worse. They also took control of her finances and left her without enough money to even buy food, and this was with constant complaints, demands for answers and changes, etc., from her daughter, who is usually very effective.

The whole social services "support" system has been disgraceful; all that they were interested in was getting her money and her house.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Update: The old lady died in her own bed on Wednesday, with her daughter and grandchildren with her, so her suffering is now over.

The "Care" arranged by the local authority just got worse and worse. They also took control of her finances and left her without enough money to even buy food, and this was with constant complaints, demands for answers and changes, etc., from her daughter, who is usually very effective.

The whole social services "support" system has been disgraceful; all that they were interested in was getting her money and her house.
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I thought once the upper limit is reached then self funding stops and you only pay a £1 in every £250 tariff until it falls to the lower limit?

I think they are £23,250 and £14,250 respectively in England. Quite paltry amounts, although unusually Scotland is slightly more generous.

The whole thing sounds awful. I've got a friend who has just had to move their relative out of a care home because they've discovered a lot of unexplained bruising and many of the staff are apparently unpleasant to say the least. The new place is a fair whack more expensive, but so far the quality appears to be far better.
 
gman said:
the staff are apparently unpleasant to say the least.
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My mother has been in hospital a couple of times this year on a ward for the frail elderly where you would expect a reasonable level of care and I witnessed staff shouting at patients who clearly had dementia. If that's what you get from qualified nurses on an NHS ward then one can only imagine what goes on "in the community".
 
Garry Edwards said:
The whole social services "support" system has been disgraceful; all that they were interested in was getting her money and her house.
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I think that a major part of the problem goes back to the Thatcher government in the 1980s, when all the good things of the post world war two socialist system were deliberately destroyed.

Prior to Thatcher, the low key style of British socialism valued public service very highly. People who cared for other people, were considered to be, if not saints, to be doing vital work for the community. After Thatcher, this was reversed and social workers of all kinds were denigrated as "do gooders" or people who couldn't get a proper job. This led to a situation where care workers are neither properly trained nor adequately rewarded. As the old saying goes: "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys".
 
gman said:
I thought once the upper limit is reached then self funding stops and you only pay a £1 in every £250 tariff until it falls to the lower limit?

I think they are £23,250 and £14,250 respectively in England. Quite paltry amounts, although unusually Scotland is slightly more generous.

The whole thing sounds awful. I've got a friend who has just had to move their relative out of a care home because they've discovered a lot of unexplained bruising and many of the staff are apparently unpleasant to say the least. The new place is a fair whack more expensive, but so far the quality appears to be far better.
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More or less right, in theory.
But in practice, the local authority just take over, they seem to be trusted by the Office of the Public Guardian to do things properly but they abuse that trust.
In this case, she had a lot of savings, they just took over her bank accounts.
They also took over her pension, and supplied her with a card that she was supposed to use to pay for food and other essentials - difficult to do for someone who couldn't leave the house - and her spending was limited to £50 anyway.

They were supposed to provide her with all sorts of aids, everything from an alarm if she fell over to a new bed, needed because her existing bed was too high for her to get into or out of, leading to a fall, but they did nothing at all. After a wait of 10 months she was put on to end of life care, at which point the NHS district nurses became involved and they got a bed delivered the same day. The family tried to pay for and get a bed, but this was blocked. The family did pay for a lot of other things that the council should have paid for but didn't, such as her telephone bill, but as there was no communication from the council and they took all of her mail, we didn't even know about some of the problems.

Finally, when her daughter visited on Tuesday she found that she had completely run out of her medications, which I'm guessing led to her death later that day. The carers were required to give these medications 5 times a day but they didn't bother to tell anyone that they had run out . . . Perhaps if they spoke any English it would have helped:(

Sadly, nobody knows just how bad the system is unless they find themselves trapped in it, and nobody cares, and there is nobody to complain to either.
 
sirch said:
My mother has been in hospital a couple of times this year on a ward for the frail elderly where you would expect a reasonable level of care and I witnessed staff shouting at patients who clearly had dementia. If that's what you get from qualified nurses on an NHS ward then one can only imagine what goes on "in the community".
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That's awful. My dad is becoming more and more forgetful and it is very frustrating. Whilst I can appreciate one's tether can run short, I keep telling myself that he's not doing it deliberately and isn't his fault. But for professionals to be behaving like that is awful. I really detest seeing elderly mistreated, especially when vulnerable.
 
Garry Edwards said:
More or less right, in theory.
But in practice, the local authority just take over, they seem to be trusted by the Office of the Public Guardian to do things properly but they abuse that trust.
In this case, she had a lot of savings, they just took over her bank accounts.
They also took over her pension, and supplied her with a card that she was supposed to use to pay for food and other essentials - difficult to do for someone who couldn't leave the house - and her spending was limited to £50 anyway.

They were supposed to provide her with all sorts of aids, everything from an alarm if she fell over to a new bed, needed because her existing bed was too high for her to get into or out of, leading to a fall, but they did nothing at all. After a wait of 10 months she was put on to end of life care, at which point the NHS district nurses became involved and they got a bed delivered the same day. The family tried to pay for and get a bed, but this was blocked. The family did pay for a lot of other things that the council should have paid for but didn't, such as her telephone bill, but as there was no communication from the council and they took all of her mail, we didn't even know about some of the problems.

Finally, when her daughter visited on Tuesday she found that she had completely run out of her medications, which I'm guessing led to her death later that day. The carers were required to give these medications 5 times a day but they didn't bother to tell anyone that they had run out . . . Perhaps if they spoke any English it would have helped:(

Sadly, nobody knows just how bad the system is unless they find themselves trapped in it, and nobody cares, and there is nobody to complain to either.
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That sounds insane. The councils seem to have a ridiculous amount of power sometimes.

Is it worth looking at legal action, or would that be a lost cause?
 
gman said:
That sounds insane. The councils seem to have a ridiculous amount of power sometimes.

Is it worth looking at legal action, or would that be a lost cause?
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In theory, the old lady could have applied for a Judicial Review, but the cost of doing that is a minimum of £250K, and the council had "found" (contrary to the written opinion of her own GP) that she had lost capability, which means that only the Official Solicitor could take the case on. An ordinary commercial solicitor couldn't, because she officially lacked capacity and so couldn't instruct a solicitor, her own daughter couldn't, she had no Locus Standi, and couldn't even act as a McKenzie friend.

I just don't see how a social worker can make that decision, but they can, and they carried out their assessment in a private meeting, at which the old lady was unaccompanied and unrepresented, and was outnumbered 3 to 1, which is itself wrong. And they carried out this assessment late afternoon, when she was tired and probably did show signs of dementia, she was perfectly OK in the mornings.
 
I don't see how the council can demand power over someone's finances when their daughter is alive and I assume perfectly competent either. Seems like a case of elder abuse designed to get money out of her. I'd be looking at what her money went on. So much as 2p out of place and the council should be forced to pay the lot of it back. Stink needs to be kicked up over this.

There is Age UK that advocates for older people. I'd bet they've had this kind of thing happen before.
 
I know a family that had a similar issue they just used a nanny cam like what is used for kids.


www.bbc.co.uk

BBC One - BBC Newsline, 24/01/2011, Carer ate food meant for patients

It's the ultimate betrayal of trust - a vulnerable elderly woman being mistreated by the person who's meant to be caring for her. The McCluskey family in Lisburn had their worst fears confirmed when they put a secret camera in their mother's bedroom. Ivy McCluskey's carer appeared in court and...
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
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