Advice sought on Camera and flash settings for action

cmcm789

cmcm789

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I want to try some night shots at a trail 10k. I hav a 2 flash set up but wondering what sort of settings I should start with. I.e. do I go for a high but acceptable iso so that I can keep the flash power lower to save battery and faster recycle times?

Plan one flash behind for a highlight and one front side opp side of path to camera.

Apologies for the really ignorant question.
 
I often use a higher iso when I want to get faster recycling so that shouldn't be an issue with modern cameras, one thing I would consider is wether your going to blind the runners?.
I've not shot this type of action at night but personally I wouldn't be a happy bunny if you "zapped" my night vision in a race. Just my 2p worth.
 
Have you been commissioned by the organisers or are you doing this for your own benefit?

Using the type of setup you are proposing sounds very intrusive and some would be forgiven for finding it outright offensive. They are there to run, not to be your model.

If I was in your shoes, I would be looking for natural feature lighting, cars, street furniture, shops, checkpoints ect: and supporting that with some constant lights, still intrusive, but less offensive.

You know your subjects better than we do, and how much they will tolerate. But just be midfull of why they are there.
 
I've shot night races and the competitors are mostly 'in the zone' and don't realise, especailly if you can light them from the side rather than directly into their face.

Does your flash have HSS function? Try that, balancing power and shutter speed. Too low a shutter speed and you'll end up with motion blur from the runners.
 
swanseamale47 said:
I often use a higher iso when I want to get faster recycling so that shouldn't be an issue with modern cameras, one thing I would consider is wether your going to blind the runners?.
I've not shot this type of action at night but personally I wouldn't be a happy bunny if you "zapped" my night vision in a race. Just my 2p worth.
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Nixon said:
Have you been commissioned by the organisers or are you doing this for your own benefit?

Using the type of setup you are proposing sounds very intrusive and some would be forgiven for finding it outright offensive. They are there to run, not to be your model.

If I was in your shoes, I would be looking for natural feature lighting, cars, street furniture, shops, checkpoints ect: and supporting that with some constant lights, still intrusive, but less offensive.

You know your subjects better than we do, and how much they will tolerate. But just be midfull of why they are there.
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You are both completely correct, i have no intention of blinding runners or getting in their way. I am a runner myself, have been in touch with the organisers to make sure i won't be treading on any "commissioned" photographers toes and they are fine with it. The route is mostly through forest although it is an endurance (6hr, 12hr, 24hr) event run on a 1.2mile loop. If there are more lit areas such as the feed station i will try and use that and as suggested supplement with my flash, but ultimately i want a clean background as i want the runners to really jump out, so hopefully as they leave the forest and into the lit area the light won't impact them. I also intend to ask them as i will be there before sunset to get some daylight shots.
 
andrewc said:
I've shot night races and the competitors are mostly 'in the zone' and don't realise, especailly if you can light them from the side rather than directly into their face.

Does your flash have HSS function? Try that, balancing power and shutter speed. Too low a shutter speed and you'll end up with motion blur from the runners.
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I don't think the flash will do HSS off-Camera. Hoping to light from side but slightly in front. Was thinking if i up the ISO i can reduce the flash output so it won't be just as harsh.

If the flash is the main light would shutter speed matter (within reason). i was thinking of starting at 1/125 (depending on if i want some ambient or not but it will be trial and error). I had thought the flash would freeze the motion? During any daylight races i would have the shutter at 1/640 or faster but all with natural light.
 
There are two exposures to consider - the period of flash duration and the period that the shutter is open for.

I shot at Endure24 and there was a section where iI was shooting at 1/60th and getting an acceptable image, some motion blur. I'd have to dig the images out from archive to examine exif in more detail.
 
andrewc said:
There are two exposures to consider - the period of flash duration and the period that the shutter is open for.

I shot at Endure24 and there was a section where iI was shooting at 1/60th and getting an acceptable image, some motion blur. I'd have to dig the images out from archive to examine exif in more detail.
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Was the motion blur due to some ambient light?
 
Andrew, can I ask, the two flashes that you have what are they make & model? Using flash at night you actually have a big advantage and depending on what flashes you have, you could potentialy freeze the action via the flash. I take it you are using the lights you have off camera? Their are numerous options you could use to increase the spread of the light, rather than increasing your ISO or flash power. e.g using reflectors position, height of lights.
 
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One thing worth remembering, shutter speed has little impact on exposure when shooting flash, the synch speed with modern cameras is all about response times of the electronic circuits. For exposure you use power, subject distance from the light and aperture. The duration of the flash will freeze motion then you just need to balance the rest for good exposure. If you are using a good modern camera that will AF in the dark then the TTL flash should sort the rest out for you
 
Karl.t1965 said:
One thing worth remembering, shutter speed has little impact on exposure when shooting flash, the synch speed with modern cameras is all about response times of the electronic circuits. For exposure you use power, subject distance from the light and aperture. The duration of the flash will freeze motion then you just need to balance the rest for good exposure. If you are using a good modern camera that will AF in the dark then the TTL flash should sort the rest out for you
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Good point Karl, but shutter speed will affect the ambient probably not as important in this case as the guy is shooting runners at night, so the main exposure will be coming from the flash. I personally think he would be better shooting in manual rather in TTL and override the pre flash as it just slows thing down. If he has a Godox AD200, the wide umbrella reflector does a great job, in relation to angle of spread and provides an additional stop of light, which for his use could really help depending on what he is trying to achieve. The other great thing about the AD200 is that you can see the flash duration (T stop) as you move through the power settings, so he could try some different effects in freezing motion and blurring it. I think hard light for runners would look really gritty and edgy, and he could even gel the light for some creative effect. I did a night stage at the RAC Rally a few years back and used side light which worked really well and did not blind the driver or navigators (and I asked the drivers before I used it) Night time action with flash can provide some great creative opportunities, I wonder how he got on, would like to see some of the images he did take.
 
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Flashes were just standard Canon, it would have been either the 600EX-RT's I have now or the 580EX II's that preceeded them. I do use an external battery pack which boosts recycling times (4 batteries in the flash, another 8 in the external pack).

I now have flash triggers so I could mount flashes off camera and trigger remotely - strap them to trees or similar - but not easy setting up shots in the dark.
 
Hi Andrew, without teaching you to suck eggs the following may be of help in the future. Yes, setting lights up in the dark can be challenging, Practice outside in the dark so that when you know the distance that your lights will be effective at (Flash subject Distance and write things down in a notebook) you will then know where to set them when you do future events. Practice different flash zoom settings so that you can see the spread and power of the light. At night your flashes won't have to work as hard and at 105mm you will be able to throw your light further. As you have two flashes, at least you can do two point lighting which will always look good. If you can get one of the flashes at between 8 to 10 feet as your main, you can create I nice are of spread and fill then backlight with the other flash you will get some great images. If you struggle focus wise use a pre focus point rather than relying on the cameras auto focus. You no doubt have already tried many of the above, but just thought I would share my thoughts. Andrew if you are looking for some inspiration, take a look a Dave Black https://daveblackphotography.com/creative-lighting-portfolio/ Regards Noodles
 
If I get asked to cover that event again I'll certainly try and set up the flashes whilst in daylight, but its difficult covering the race in progress and setting up the flash area. Its a long slog covering that event, which I think started at noon, and had been shooting since prior to the race start.
 
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