Aircraft security alert

jon ryan

jon ryan

Messages
2,845
Name
Jon
Edit My Images
Yes
Two men arrested after RAF Typhoon fighter jets are scrambled to escort Pakistan Airlines passenger plane to Stansted

Independant

So what would the Typhoon pilots feel if they were ordered to shoot it down?
 
jon ryan said:
Two men arrested after RAF Typhoon fighter jets are scrambled to escort Pakistan Airlines passenger plane to Stansted

Independant

So what would the Typhoon pilots feel if they were ordered to shoot it down?
Click to expand...

They aren't there to think or feel but to carry out orders!
 
Over the sea is the general principle for aircraft over uk. Never really more than 20 mins from the wet stuff...
 
Ruffy said:
Just a target.....to them anyway
Click to expand...

I guess you would need to develop the ability to think of it like that. Wouldn't envy the poor brave sod who was ordered to do it, though. How would you live with yourself? Not like shooting down another war plane - that's in the job description - but 300 holidaymakers? I can understand how that would be better than what happened on 9/11, but really...
 
If they couldn't carry out the order, they are in the wrong job.
I'm glad it was landed traditionally though.
 
Wouldn't envy the poor brave sod who was ordered to do it, though. How would you live with yourself
Click to expand...

Some years ago, there was a TV program, where a group of politicians were given a scenario where a plan had been hi jacked.
The hijackers, unsurprisingly declined the offer of Stanstead, and winger their way round the skies for a while before pluming for Happy Heathrow, by flying down the Thames.
Meanwhile the cutting edge of Britain's decision makers um'd and ah'd, and called meetings while ignoring the Military advise of shoot the b...blessed thing down. They decided not to where upon it was flown into the HOC.
2 things could be drawn from that program, one that a Politician will do anything to get rid of the opposition, or anyone who might block them from greater office. and 2. They can't make a decision to saved their (colleagues) lives.
At the end of the day, the guy pulling the trigger has been trained and conditioned for just such a thing. If it's a matter of a couple of 100 lives or a couple of thousand, it's not so difficult. Not very nice admittedly, but that goes with the job.
 
Yeah. I've shot my share of fatal RTAs and fires. You get pretty thick-skinned about it. The one that disturbed me the most was a small plane crash. A parachute club Cessna went down near Honiton. The thing that hit me was how peaceful it was. Normally at an incident there is loads of noise and activity. This crash was at the edge of a wood in quiet countryside. Just a tiny, rather pathetic little plane, nosed into the earth. I remember the birds were singing. The emergency services had gone by the time I got there, apart from a couple of copper who told me that the bodies - one a fifteen-year-old-girl - were still in the wreckage as apparently the crash investigators could determine quite a bit about what had happened by the state of the victims. Took me quite a while to get over that.

Story
 
Bernie174 said:
Some years ago, there was a TV program, where a group of politicians were given a scenario where a plan had been hi jacked.
The hijackers, unsurprisingly declined the offer of Stanstead, and winger their way round the skies for a while before pluming for Happy Heathrow, by flying down the Thames.
Meanwhile the cutting edge of Britain's decision makers um'd and ah'd, and called meetings while ignoring the Military advise of shoot the b...blessed thing down. They decided not to where upon it was flown into the HOC.
2 things could be drawn from that program, one that a Politician will do anything to get rid of the opposition, or anyone who might block them from greater office. and 2. They can't make a decision to saved their (colleagues) lives.
At the end of the day, the guy pulling the trigger has been trained and conditioned for just such a thing. If it's a matter of a couple of 100 lives or a couple of thousand, it's not so difficult. Not very nice admittedly, but that goes with the job.
Click to expand...
I remember that programme.

The fact of the matter is, that no country has ever needed to shoot down a passenger plane full of innocent civilians (OK, one did once but there was no apparent good reason to do so).

So, my take on this is that if fighter pilots were ordered to do so they would be completely satisfied that there was absolutely no other choice, and they would just get on with it. Whether or not they would ever recover from it is another matter, but they wouldn't hesitate to carry out their orders.
 
gramps said:
Isn't part of military training designed to remove "feel"?
Click to expand...

No - the idea is to produce serious professionals who will follow difficult orders , not psychopaths who have no fellow feeling for their fellow man

in this case i have no doubt that they'd do as ordered, then deal with it afterwards, though they'd probably feel prety damn bad for the civilians, the rationalisation would be that they'd have been just as dead once the terrs crashed the jet into whatever target they were aiming for.
 
must admit, did think with the olympics last year and the AAA on top of flats.... supposing a rogue 747 on finals to LHR.... into 27.

Gets shot down somewhere East London... where is it going to land?
 
big soft moose said:
No - the idea is to produce serious professionals who will follow difficult orders , not psychopaths who have no fellow feeling for their fellow man

in this case i have no doubt that they'd do as ordered, then deal with it afterwards, though they'd probably feel prety damn bad for the civilians, the rationalisation would be that they'd have been just as dead once the terrs crashed the jet into whatever target they were aiming for.
Click to expand...

Not sure where the "psychopaths" came from ... anyone who could shoot down a plane full of innocent civilians, probably including children, would not be subject to 'normal' unfettered feelings.
Military training is designed to justify killing, by its very nature, that's because it's necessary to overcome normal feelings that make killing abhorrent.
 
gramps said:
Not sure where the "psychopaths" came from ... anyone who could shoot down a plane full of innocent civilians, probably including children, would not be subject to 'normal' unfettered feelings.
Military training is designed to justify killing, by its very nature, that's because it's necessary to overcome normal feelings that make killing abhorrent.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid thats just not the case - well trained pilots / soilders/ sailors or whatever are subject to the same feelings as the rest of us - it is just that their millitary training allows them to subjigate their feelings to the purpose of their 'mission'

Anyone who could cheerfully shoot down a passenger jet without any negative emotions or feelings, would have to be a sociopath and at least in the UK armed forces would be downchecked before they got anywhere near the chance to actually do so.
 
gramps said:
Exactly, that's what they are trained to do ... which is what I said.
Click to expand...

It's not what you said. Subjugate and remove are two very different things.
 
DemiLion said:
It's not what you said. Subjugate and remove are two very different things.
Click to expand...

Ah the hyper-critical!
I wonder why some here are so keen to jump in and attack - seizing at every opportunity to find confrontation.
 
As an ex military (14yrs) who cleaned up Lockerbie, And has served all over this world I can assure you we have feelings and nightmares. But at the time you are trained to respond to commands.....
Having said that there is no politician would give the command to shoot down a passenger plane and especially not over land.
 
Gr8Shot said:
As an ex military (14yrs) who cleaned up Lockerbie, And has served all over this world I can assure you we have feelings and nightmares. But at the time you are trained to respond to commands.....
Having said that there is no politician would give the command to shoot down a passenger plane and especially not over land.
Click to expand...

Exactly, and if that training was not in place then most would be unable to carry out orders due to their natural feelings.
I am sure know that many military personnel have grave regrets over actions that they have been involved in and some have become so deeply troubled that they have ruined (temporarily or permanently), or taken, their own lives.
 
gramps said:
Ah the hyper-critical!
I wonder why some here are so keen to jump in and attack - seizing at every opportunity to find confrontation.
Click to expand...

It's got nothing to do with being hypercritical. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of how the forces work.

We are required to carry out tasks which are frequently unpleasant and go against human nature. That is partly down to candidate selection and aptitude and partly training.

There is nothing within that training that 'removes' the feeling. If that were so, thousands of ex service personnel (including myself) wouldn't suffer from varying degrees of PTSD.


Next time try being a bit more careful with your choice of wording and don't be so damned smart when it's pointed out that you are utterly wrong.
 
DemiLion said:
It's got nothing to do with being hypercritical. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of how the forces work.

We are required to carry out tasks which are frequently unpleasant and go against human nature. That is partly down to candidate selection and aptitude and partly training.

There is nothing within that training that 'removes' the feeling. If that were so, thousands of ex service personnel (including myself) wouldn't suffer from varying degrees of PTSD.


Next time try being a bit more careful with your choice of wording and don't be so damned smart when it's pointed out that you are utterly wrong.
Click to expand...

You are nit-picking, as usual.
 
gramps said:
You are nit-picking, as usual.
Click to expand...

No. I'm fundamentally disagreeing with your holier-than-thou attitude.

Edit:

I'm not the only one who's pointed out that you basic premise is completely wrong.

There's a huge difference between not feeling and carrying out your orders in spite of your feelings.
 
Last edited:
Gr8Shot said:
As an ex military (14yrs) who cleaned up Lockerbie, And has served all over this world I can assure you we have feelings and nightmares. But at the time you are trained to respond to commands.....
Having said that there is no politician would give the command to shoot down a passenger plane and especially not over land.
Click to expand...

I suspect that you're wrong in the post 11/9/2001 world.

If I remember correctly, the programme that Bernie referred to was broadcast prior to that. :)
 
DemiLion said:
No. I'm fundamentally disagreeing with your holier-than-thou attitude.
Click to expand...

Nothing "holier than thou" about it, it's simply a fact ... if a fighter pilot was required to shoot down a civilian aircraft he would have to remove his feelings first ... if he couldn't do that then he would be unable to carry out the act.
I don't know why you find that so difficult to come to terms with and why you are arguing over one word ... you must clearly see what I am saying, yet choose to argue about it :shrug:
 
gramps said:
Nothing "holier than thou" about it, it's simply a fact ... if a fighter pilot was required to shoot down a civilian aircraft he would have to remove his feelings first ... if he couldn't do that then he would be unable to carry out the act.
Click to expand...

Unless you are actuaslly a fighter pilot - how can you actually know that to be the case ?

The reason this is important to me is that I am ex forces as I believe mark is also, and many of my freinds still are serving, having seen freinds struggle with the emotional consequences of combat service I find this 'oh millitary training removes your feelings line' hollier than thou, insensitive and offensive -

Military training does not remove your feelings - it enables you to act and do what is needed despite your feelings.

I'm sure no RAF or Fleet air arm pilot would shoot down a passenger jet if there were any other option , but in the hypothetical case being discussed the passengers would already be essentially 'dead' (that is if the pilot doesnt shoot the jet is going to get crashed in a 9/11 style - we arent talking about a landing with hostages type scenario)

so the issue isnt do I shoot and kill 300 civilians

the issue is do I shoot and kill 300 civilians who are going to die anyway or not shoot and allow everyone at the 'target' to get killed as well those 300

Millitary training enables you to deal with those questions and make the right choice despite your feelings - it doesnt prevent after the fact feelings of remorse and guilt and probably nightmares and all the usual bagage that goes with killing another person especially when they arent trying to kill you
 
Last edited:
jon ryan said:
Two men arrested after RAF Typhoon fighter jets are scrambled to escort Pakistan Airlines passenger plane to Stansted

Independant

So what would the Typhoon pilots feel if they were ordered to shoot it down?
Click to expand...

gramps said:
Isn't part of military training designed to remove "feel"?
Click to expand...

Overexposed said:
They aren't there to think or feel but to carry out orders!
Click to expand...

No one is suggesting that military personnel are void of feelings, the question was asked about following an order to shoot down a civilian aircraft - both Overexposed and I made our comments in response to the specific question about a specific event in time.
I stand by my comment that a fighter pilot would have to remove his feelings in order to follow his orders and shoot down a civilian aircraft full of passengers, otherwise he would be, as you put it a 'sociopath'.
 
Demi

No, it was screened not that long after 9/11.
I seem to recall Portillo being on it.
Anyway, I later worked for NATS, lets say that experience reinforced the program.

Lynton asked what would be the effect of a shoot down during the Olympics.
The idea was to shoot down before anything got close to East London. Not difficult with warning given Typhoon, Type 46 Destroyers, Rapier and last resort the HV ASM, that I can't recall the name of.
However, late decision or notification? It goes where ever, the big issue that where ever wasn't the middle of the stadium with Instant pictures of what happened, although probably not much immediately of the aftermath.
 
jon ryan said:
I guess you would need to develop the ability to think of it like that. Wouldn't envy the poor brave sod who was ordered to do it, though. How would you live with yourself? Not like shooting down another war plane - that's in the job description - but 300 holidaymakers? I can understand how that would be better than what happened on 9/11, but really...
Click to expand...

A job is a job at the end of the day, but 300 holiday makers on air Pakistan :wacky:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top