An Independent Scotland?

StewartR said:
I can see where you're coming from here, and I sympathise, but unfortunately I can't help thinking you're being rather naive. I hope you have better reasons for supporting independence.

Yes, the Scottish Parliament has been relatively good at avoiding the sort of cronyism that we see at Westminster. (Or at least, it has been since you dumped Jack McConnell.) But the recent news of Alex Salmond toadying up to Rupert Murdoch is surely an indicator. At present, to be brutal, the Scottish Parliament doesn't matter very much. But posit an independent, wealthy Scotland with its oil, and suddenly the Scottish Parliament matters an awful lot; and that will create far more opportunities and incentives for businesses and politicians to "work together", "for the good of Scotland". Salmond won't be able to resist that. Who would?
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Again some misconceptions, firstly that naivety is somehow wrong, the word doesn't mean stupid nor does it mean 'we' will be incapable of handling whatever needs handling.

Second "At present, to be brutal, the Scottish Parliament doesn't matter very much." ahem.. to whom? it matters a whole lot to those of us living here.

Third, Alex Salmond. This has come up so many times in this thread, A.S. is leader of the SNP and First Minister, the SNP have been the main force behind the independence movement (it's their raison d'etre after all) but that does not mean that after independence he and they will be the ones in the chair! I've been an SNP voter all my life (also been said before on this thread) but I'm far more likely to vote Green in an independent Scotland, it once would have been Labour but they're a party who've lost the plot entirely in recent years.
 
Steep said:
" I love the freedom you get and feel whilst in Scotland " it's an illusion Andrew, but one the Scottish government is working to beat.
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There is no illusion to me but then maybe it depends on what you want to be doing to exercise your freedom in these places!

It would appear that the root of your real problem is that the wide open spaces are all owned by a tiny fraction of the population (but not you) and that many of whom are absentees. (English perhaps?) and you have never attacked England?
 
My god Andrew you should be in politics yourself, how to twist someones words into supporting the point you want to make regardless of what they actually said.

I ask you again, find an argument that will make me want to stay, prove me wrong about anything I have said but stop making it about me personally.
 
On a more amusing note - if Scotland does becomes independent, I suppose this will mean that we can look forward to seeing Scotland represented in the ESC next year.

On a more serious note - if either side win, do you think that it will cause any internal problems in Scotland, (particularly if the "for independence" camp loose)
 
There's been very little animosity between 'normal' people Bill and it's not the first time we've done this. Win or loose we'll all still be buying our milk and papers in the same shops.
 
Steep said:
There's been very little animosity between 'normal' people Bill and it's not the first time we've done this. Win or loose we'll all still be buying our milk and papers in the same shops.
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That's good to hear - the reason I asked was that I heard a lady SNP person say that if they lost they would just carry on and carry on until they won
 
Well I can't deny that Bill, I've posted before that the whole reason for the SNPs existence is to gain independence for Scotland, it's why the party was founded. I think if the vote was a resounding no it would be difficult to carry on but it won't be. Currently yes is behind in the polls but the gap gets narrower every day and I do think that the result will be close whichever way it goes. So in the event of a no but only just the work would continue.
 
My views are if that's what the Scottish people want, then that's fine - but I do not see any "purpose" in it from anyones point of view.

From a negative UK perspective, being a "voter" who would never now vote Labour I can see the merit in Scottish independence for the UK …….. but maybe a change is a good thing just for the change …. I can see all the political and financial etc., arguments but maybe there is something more than that.

I think that if the Scots leave the Union in a perverse way it will strengthen the UK leaving Europe, so in a few years time we could see Scotland in the EU and the "new' UK out of the EU.
Then, rather than being "ruled from Westminster" Scotland will be ruled from Brussels, with far less autonomy as the EU increase it's control in most areas of EU life, and the "new" UK will be "independent" - quite ironic really!

I am sorry but I have not read the 900 and odd postings before this, so maybe I should not even have joined the debate.
 
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Any sensible contribution is welcome :)

There was for a time the misconception that the Scottish Labour vote decided elections in Westminster but when you look back at earlier results there has very rarely been a situation where that vote actually made the difference. What might make a difference is the 'shock' of departure if and when Scotland go it alone, there's an idea that it could be a much needed kick up the pants for the main parties down South.

As I've said before I'm a socialist at heart and in the past would have been a Labour voter but nowadays Scottish Labour is in freefall in much the same way as I suspect it is elsewhere, because they have watered down and changed their policies so many times over the years no-one knows what they stand for any more.
 
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In my naivete :) I think parties should try to convince the electorate that their policies are the right ones, unfortunately the main parties in Westminster seem more prone to change their policies to attract votes which is really just chasing power for powers sake.
 
GeeJay57 said:
Gordon Brown selling off the UK gold reserve at knock-down price was another gaff..
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Done when Blair was PM, so not Brown alone. Whatever feelings anyone may have about Blair or Brown (or anyone else involved at that time), it's still really hard to think "gaff". I either have to think "conspiracy theory" (which is tough) or accept that they were all THAT incompetent (which is equally tough).
 
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Here's something that shows a seperation can be a good thing for both countries.

On 15th May Norway celebrated its independence day, 200 years ago they ended a 400+ year union with Denmark. This year the Speaker of the Danish parliament gave a speech to the Norwegian Parliament.

moridura.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/sweden-celebrates-200th-anniversary-of.html

The two countries are now the best of friends and cooperate on an equal footing.
 
There may be a problem with the UKIP guy, there's some confusion about where he lives. He told the electoral commision that he had moved to Edinburgh before the deadline but seems not to have an Edinburgh address, still shown as living in London. If it's true I'm not sure what will happen with the result.
 
That would explain why the stuttering, sweating Returning Officer read out names and addresses so pointedly!

Presumably the UKIP vote transfers to their second nominated candidate. It would be an infinitely greater scandal - a real one! - if 140,000+ voters were disenfranchised on that technicality.
 
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Not my call to make thankfully. There's a possible fine of £10,000 for him and it 'might' mean the election had to be rerun assuming it's not just a paperwork mess up.
 
A rerun would be amazing doubt £10k fine would cover it maybe the votes should stand until after the Scottish referendum as a yes vote may mean you would need negations with the EU again any way and probably a vote based on your sole membership. Glad i don't have that to worry about

Still i feel sure the the SNP will be glad they held most of the share they had before
 
I'm beginning to think those 139,687 people should maybe be disenfranchised after all...

View attachment 12474

I wonder how many people really knew what they were voting for when the put their X in his box^
 
Asked about the SNP’s plans for a distinct immigration policy to meet Scotland’s economic needs, he said: “Why don’t we have more children?”
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Not a particularly intelligent comment but then also not quite the same as the sensational rag headline portrays, not to mention their later use of the word "breed" in the article. Sounds very Daily Mail to be honest.

I don't mind immigration so long as it's skilled and they can support themselves. My dentist for example is Indian (Sikh I think and probably many generations in as he sounds more Scottish than me! lol) and is by far the best dentist I've ever had, with passion and obvious skill because I never have any subsequent problems. However, the worry is that it will become another open door policy that Labour once had, which our current infrastructure may not be able to cope with.

If UKIP ever take power of the UK I think we will all be in trouble, whether Scotland is independent or not. Whilst their primary policies may appeal to a lot of people, many of their other policies are not good and this is of course going on the assumption that they are not a hidden guise for a hard line group.
 
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You could just as easily be out of a job if the vote is no, nobody has a safe job. I work for a multi national company who have been paring down to the bone but like most other companies they are neutral and those of 'our' Scottish customers who expressed a preference have said business as usual.
 
Steep said:
You could just as easily be out of a job if the vote is no, nobody has a safe job. I work for a multi national company who have been paring down to the bone but like most other companies they are neutral and those of 'our' Scottish customers who expressed a preference have said business as usual.
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When the bulk of your client base is south of the border and they want their money in the UK, whats the likely outcome despite all the HR speak PLCs are so adept at giving?
 
You'd need to speak to your bosses about that, only they will have the answer.
 
I suspect any hold on building is down to Kingfishers crap trading year, as for the rest of it there's nothing there to worry anyone. Like any prudent business they are saying we'll wait and see but of course they'll be staying, Kingfisher are a multi national company and trading in one more isn't going to faze them. EU membership will happen probably sooner than anyone is prepared to say and so will currency union. Personally I'm for separating the currency completely but I can see the benefit of retaining a currency union for a time, for both nations.
 
Why do you think that a country that breaks away from another would keep its currency. Why would the rest of the UK want a country who elected to leave the UK to use its currency. Moreover, why don't the Scots have the desire to start up their own.

Why is EU membership a given for a country that elected to break away from a EU member state. Don't the Scots have their desire to be independent, why be independent of Westminster but not independent of Brussels.
 
ST4 said:
Why do you think that a country that breaks away from another would keep its currency. Why would the rest of the UK want a country who elected to leave the UK to use its currency. Moreover, why don't the Scots have the desire to start up their own.

Why is EU membership a given for a country that elected to break away from a EU member state. Don't the Scots have their desire to be independent, why be independent of Westminster but not independent of Brussels.
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Because they want to have their cake and eat it

.
 
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If the No campaign keep letting Westminster politicians make their points for them the Yes is more likely every day. There were some spectacular own goals this week from Danny Alexander.

Add the "No Borders" lot having to apologise to Great Ormond Street Hospital for lying in their adverts.
 
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ST4 said:
Why do you think that a country that breaks away from another would keep its currency. Why would the rest of the UK want a country who elected to leave the UK to use its currency. Moreover, why don't the Scots have the desire to start up their own.

Why is EU membership a given for a country that elected to break away from a EU member state. Don't the Scots have their desire to be independent, why be independent of Westminster but not independent of Brussels.
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Exactly correct. All this talk of "self determination" coupled with a desire to hand Scotland over to Brussells (no mention of a referendum, you may notice) is illogical. Maybe it is not illogical to Salmond etc. who could have a not so well hidden agenda !!!
Politicians (all of them) .............. can they be trusted to be for the common good or are they in it for themselves. I don't see many of them that I'd trust to carry out my garbage. I, for one, don't fancy a leap in the dark. I'll stick with the current snouts in the trough. At least I can have an idea, from experience of them, just exactly upon what what they are supping.
 
I have yet to see one genuine decent argument for staying within the Union, from anyone. I've asked on this thread a number of times for someone to come up with one but nothing! We get Lots of scare stories from Unionist politicians and campaigners all (every single one) of which have been proved false. Lots of promises of improvements 'later' if we say no (all of which turn out to be ifs and maybe's depending on ifs and might be's).

But if you are happy with...

Having a government you never voted for...

Parking their nuclear "status symbol" weapons 30 miles from Scotlands' biggest city against the will of most Scots.
Using Scottish mines and decomissioned power plants as dumps for nuclear waste.
Taking us to war illegaly for the profits of American big business.
Syphoning off the greater part of your countrys wealth to feed the inner M25 cash cow.
Introducing taxes on the poorest people to pay for the follies of the richest.
and any number of other examples

Then by all means vote to stay.




Again, for anyone who bothers to read, currency union is important for both nations stability at least in the short term and there will be no argument against it after a yes vote (at least not by anyone who's bothered informing themselves). I have no problem with a seperate currency later on.
The EU has been immensly good for Scotland except where Westminster politicians have failed us in negotiations. One good example, our country would still be covered in single track roads if not for the EU. One bad example our fishing industry sold down the river because Westminster officials would not fight for it. If you want to leave the EU your quickest way is to vote for the Union.
 
You know Steep its a bit rich saying rUK is going to leave the EU you have zero proof i would call it scare mongering

When you refer their nuclear status symbol i assume you really meant "our nuclear" Labour seem in favour and Scotland has voted labour a fair few times.

I accept you have things you don't like as do I however i fail to see how you think you not having nuclear will mean in the event of bombs dropped on the rUK that the fall out will stop at the Border or why the aggressor may not bomb Scotland as well

You mention war and the Americans i personally think when we protected the Falklands it was a good thing what if it had been an attack on Scottish territory, would you have said no to help from rUK or lets say the USA

I also take exception at the fact i am ill informed re a currency union says who Alex maybe, i would not want it and why Scotland would want it is beyond me if you want to go have a pound just not sterling and let your banks do the adjustments on your behalf

I feel sure you can go alone financially and morally though i have never heard one good argument why you really should, the Union have tried to look after each other.

Sorry if i seem a little down it makes me annoyed that the Yes camp seem to think anyone who does not agree are just plain wrong, if someone is worried about a job i doubt he needs your job is at risk anyway. Not all the Scottish people have independent finical means and i doubt that they want to fall back on the new Scottish welfare system. Come on give people a break i admit i am biased i want you staying in the Union. Moan over
 
Allan

UKIP won an awful lot of seats in England just the other day, their stated mission is to leave Europe and Cameron has said there will be a referendum on leaving after the next election ( yeah ok he promises a lot that never gets delivered...) So not a bit rich or scaremongering, a very possible outcome.

I refer to those weapons that Tony Blair has called a Status Symbol, Not one government in the last 50 years would have been different with or without the Scottish vote, Labour or Tory.
Scotland 'used' to be a labour heartland but the labour that Scotland voted for then is not the labour that exists now which is why they are not in government in the Scottish parliament.

Having trident parked in Scotland or outside the houses of parliament (my favoured place for them) is not going to make one jot of difference if someone decides to bomb the UK with nukes so why have them at all? if rUK wants them fine just keep them away from us, we want no part of them.

War and the Americans, I thought it was pretty much accepted that 'illegal war' meant Iraq, I'm not sure how you managed to get from there to Scotland asking for help against an invasion?

I don't recall saying you were ill informed but can you explain the rest of that I can't make heads or tails of it.

The Union is decrepit, old and tired and failing. It's governed by fools and criminals and nothing we can do is going to change it so we want out, sorry if that upsets anyone but open your eyes and you'll see it's true.

It stands to reason that if you believe something then you are going to think an argument to the contrary is wrong I don't understand why that should annoy you. Again the job bit has me confused sorry but if it helps I'm not financially independent, in fact very few Scots are. Have you heard of food banks by any chance? they are a direct result of Westminster benefit cuts to the poorest of people. Listen to this guy, Denis Curran, if you're not Scots you might have difficulty with his accent so the gist of it is he's a retiree who with his wife and volunteers run a food bank. He's appearing before a Scottish parliament committee to tell them about it.

 
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"The Union is decrepit, old and tired and failing. It's governed by fools and criminals and nothing we can do is going to change it so we want out, sorry if that upsets anyone but open your eyes and you'll see it's true."

Our fools and criminals in Westminster and not in the same league as those in the Eu.

Who is "we" who want out ? No one on here has a mandate to speak for the Scottish population.
 
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